**In no place have I even(or ever) suggested that all evil comes from some otherworldy demonic being. **
No verses I pointed to were intended to infer any such thing.
Man must own his own evil.
What I have said is that there ARE otherwordly demonic spiritual beings, and that they are a part of the cosmology of the spiritual universe, and that the scriptures speak of them and their influence and activity.
I know it is difficult for us to hear one another clearly through a medium such as this, but we ought to try not to listen to one another and not jump to conclusions and far-fetched extrapolations…
I am discussing the scriptures with y’all. Thats all
It’s more a case of following Paul’s usage of the Hebraic language, Eph 6 being no exception, in referencing Jewish earthly rulers/powers; their “spiritual” characterisation denoting and confirming them as the ruling religious elites of Israel, i.e., within Judaism. It should be noted that such loaded adjectives as “forces” “hosts” appear NOWHERE in the Greek text of Eph 6:12 … such are English INTERPRETIVE flavours massaged ONTO the text.
Again prophetic language such as “heavenlies” can be understood as euphemistic of the Temple hierarchy… as I pointed to previously. Such “cosmic” language was not uncommon. Joseph in speaking of the hierarchal leadership above him i.e., his brothers, father and mother describes them in terms of “the sun, moon and stars” doing obeisance to him, and they KNEW EXACTLY what he was saying (Gen 37:8-10). Again this “heavenly” language is likewise used by Jesus in predicting the overthrow of the Temple…
“the powers of the heavens will be shaken” – these powers were none other than Israel’s Priestly “rulers and authorities” the “authorities and powers” the “powers and principalities” – those “spirituals of evil” aka the “world rulers of darkness” the “rulers of this age” (the OC age) having crucified the Lord of glory and thus coming to naught (1Cor 2:6-8). This IS all Paul’s unequivocal language.
National catastrophe had struck once with Babylon where Israel’s “lights” were put out and… “yet once more will I shake not only the earth (the land), but also heaven (the Temple) Heb 12:26. So-called “context” has been appealed to but as always assumptive presuppositions placed therein. IF the weight of textual evidence means anything there IS a stronger case for reading such “spiritual” language as pertaining to people as opposed to ethereal beings in these passages.
Having said all that, I’m not challenging the likes of the angelic realm (good or bad)… what I’m trying to make clear is that THESE texts under discussion can legitimately, contextually and exegetically be seen as touching terra firma as opposed to the wild blue yonder.
Actually, I’m a hopeful Atlantis believer. I hope Plato was not jiving us and Atlantis will rise again - and teach us how to make robots like Mr. Data of Star Trek.
Actually, I’m a hopeful Atlantis believer. I hope Plato was not jiving us and Atlantis will rise again. And teach us how to make robots, like Mr. Data of Star Trek.
qaz… with regards to “THESE texts under discussion” I was being specific tothe Ephesian passages alone… hence the above qualifier. I am however a little agnostic on said “demons”… does being “rational beings” (which I do accept) require such to be ethereal? Jesus himself said… “and one of you is a devil.”
Eaglesway, I apologize if I have offended you. That was not my intention I was trying to make the point that just because the Bible mentions demons, it does not prove that they exist. How does one tell the difference between the evilness from a man’s own heart or the evilness perpetrated by a demon? Besides,don’t they say that evil does not exist in heaven?
qaz, the Bible is filled with colorful language and uses a lot of literary terms to describe things. We know how it is since we write and speak in this same way today. One who cannot “shake the monkey off his back” denotes one who has a problem that he cannot seem to get rid of. in this same sense, a demon could mean an addiction, a person with a mental illness, an evil person, etc. etc.
The last post raises an interesting question. What about Roman Catholic cases of demon possession? From my understanding, they go to great lengths, to eliminate the possible scientific causes. Which means a medical doctor must rule out organic illness. And a psychiatrist must rule out abnormal psychotic or psychological disorders. Does this mean the medical professionals, are getting things wrong Especially if they turn things over to the priest - to preform an exorcism
The real rub is: what if we moderns are mis-diagnosing AND therefore mis-treating a demonic oppression or possession as if it is only a mental disturbance. Our means will not avail against that entity(-ies). Seeing our failure, our ‘therapy’ could become draconian and still be unfruitful.
There is no reason to believe that OUR particular worldview is correct in all its facets, of course.
Nah, I am not the slightest bit offended LLC. Just trying to keep communication clear as to what I am saying, and acknowledging that it is within the limits of my understanding and perspective. I dont know what “they say”- I am just saying what I believe Eph 6:12 is saying.
Davo, I understand that completely, and agree-I use that filter myself. Experience can be genuine even if the understanding is off. But sometimes experience requires a broadening of horizons, and experience sometimes blows a hole in the hull of our systems of thought.
For the sake of experience, whether I understood it properly or not…
Once upon a time a young man was brought to a coffeehouse ministry in Florida, that I was working in as a youth minister and street evangelist. He said that he was hearing voices and voices had been coming out of him unbidden and he was afraid. When we gathered to pray(there was about 5 of us there) He began to scream in gutteral voices, weird stuff like “glory to Satan” and growling and behaving in a generally violent and insane manner. People held him down and began screaming at him, “Come out in the name of Jesus”. I believed he was probably under the influence of some spirit, but i was not feeling that the screaming “Come out in Jesus name” was working- because after a couple hours, it hadnt.
When everyone had given up the screaming thing and let go of him and he got up to leave.
At that point the Lord spoke to me(I believe) in my heart, “Say, sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus”. I almost didnt, but dubiously yielded and said, “Sit down and shut up in the name of Jesus.” It was like and invisible hand pushed him down on the floor, and it looked like he was trying to get up but couldnt.
By the end of a night of prayer, he was in control of himself but still hearing voices and having insane thoughts. We prayed and fasted with him for three days. Then we took him to a local revival meeting where an Australian missionary who had ministered for years among the aborigines was preaching. After the meeting, we took the young man up to the guy and after some discussion and prayer he commanded the demon to come out and the young man shouted and fell to the floor. He came to in about 15 minutes. I was his pastor for the next two years. He became a fruitful, stable member of our fellowship, and went on to marry a Christian lady and altho I eventually lost touch with him, the last time I saw him maybe 3 years later, he was in Washington DC in a fellowship there, and still serving the Lord. A beautiful brother.
Maybe it was all psychological, but I dont personally believe so. He later told me this all started to happen after he had been in hanging with some street level witches who practiced necromancy and sorcery and other weird stuff.
Maybe I am crazy, or a liar …Normally I would not offer a personal experience in a disagreement concerning the word. I don’t think anyone should take anyone’s word for anything, but such as it is the story is true as far as I can understand it.
As Davo said,“For mine: I’m less inclined to doubt someone’s lived experience… I might however question their interpretation of said experience.”
I have had supernatural experiences since I was a child. I can’t say to this day I understand them all, or even most of them. My salvation experience was supernatural, a sovereign revelation of Jesus Christ came upon me when I was 20 years old. I was raised in a non Christian family and had only been to church twice in my life- a Latin mass with my grandmother and a Presbyterian Sunday school when I was 6.
During the last 25 years of my life I have not had many such experiences, but then, I havent been preaching Christ on inner city street and ministering to street people in that time either.
But I am rejoicing everyday that “He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet” Regardless of the nature of those adversaries, or how we see them, it is what it is and all will be gathered into one in Christ, whether things visible or invisible, whether things in heaven or in earth, every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth- and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
Yes that is true and yet actually works forwards as it does backwards…
Again, “experience/s” can be duly noted and be all well and good, BUT are beyond the scope of analysis in terms of “interpretation” being subjective and separate from the text itself. It is totally possible to have a given experience and yet across the passage of time come to “interpret” the same differently due to further experience.
IF we can determine something to be “thus and so” within or according to a particular religious condition/tradition or framework, regardless of whether there be any actual factuality to that belief, then WHY could the same likewise not be true of the ancients? IOW… the ancients framed their language, interpretation and beliefs according to the prevailing culture of the day; we all do.
I get what you are saying, but the NT scriptures speak of experiences similar to my own, so in addition to a predisposition I have to believe that “God breathed words” from holy men moved of God must have more reality to them than your disposition of them allows(my opinion)- I see more than ignorant primitive men communicating a mythunderstanding do to the limitations of their time in history and intellectual immaturity.
For instance, even if all of those incidences attributed to demons were psychological occurences with nothing to do with spirits- they were still dealt with by invoking the name of Jesus in faith. If that is all myth(the works of Christ and the 12 in the gospels and Acts), like I have said before, no offence meant to anyone, but the book is no different than any other collection of platitudes. I know that is a current view, and I am familiar with the idea that the historic cultural mind is evolving and that evolution is metaphorically expressed in the scriptures- and to some that applies to all the scriptures of the major cultures, philosophies and religions of man.
When Jesus said, “If I cast out demons by the finger of God then the kingdom(domain, authority) of God is come among you”- was He making allowances for their ignorance? Were His words that empty? Is that a hyperbolic or mythical exaggeration by the writers?
There is really no common ground for agreement on issues such as this between those who hold such views and myself. I think the scriptures hold much more verity than that in the narratives and in the epistles.
I prefer to believe that the 12 foundation stones and the chief cornerstone were spiritual men who walked in a reality greater than ours- not lesser.
Paul was caught up to the third heaven and heard words he could not share. Myth? This happened and somehow Paul was still just an ignorant primitive who did not really get what he was dealing with? if only he had some medicine or a sedative in his bag of tricks we would be free from such dillusions as mine.
This is too often the problem when a view other than the one being espoused is brought to the fore… it gets reframed as though it is treating your position as… “ignorant, primitive, mythunderstanding, (bound by) limitations (of) intellectual immaturity, myth, platitudes, empty, mythical, exaggeration” – none of these adjectives have fallen from my mouth with regards to YOUR position – THIS is what you are hearing WHEN something other than your position is being touted… it seems a shame a defensive, even as… “if only he had some medicine or a sedative in his bag of tricks we would be free from such dillusions as mine.”
I believe that the mind is a very powerful instrument. Even to this day, I’d say that the study of it is still fairly new. Take for example the phantom pain of an amputee or those who have fake pregnancies, their bodies going through all the symptoms of a real pregnancy even though there is no baby. Depression causes many physical symptoms, and even fear can make us see things that aren’t really there. The mind can play tricks on you, and I think that this is why we are cautioned about even our very thoughts.
While I agree the mind of man is a powerful thing…and does both good and evil…or even thinks it, to an end with evil intent…I draw a line in this sand. It’s here:
God’s mind and will and word is not open to personal interpretation.
Stuff from Him is revealed. What has been revealed is as Joseph stated to his bros…
You meant it for harm but God meant it for good. Etç
Some people stop right there…the harm. And are so broken and unable to see beyond to the finale.
Joseph saw God in it ALL. All Along the way… Even the suffering.
Yes man has a mind. So does God. And God’s word will always stand the test of time. Build your house on That Roçk. His word is truth. You are standing on sinking sand otherwise…His word is Truth.
So when scripture which is God-breathed says anything even about demons being cast out…and is received as truth…that is like a man building his house on solid roçk. Believing what God’s word says is the solid foundation …
Even when it sounds counter-intuitive (at first) till you follow the Lamb into deeper waters.
His word is true. Let God be true and every man…well…we all know what that verse says.
Isaiah 27:1 says this: “In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish Leviathan, the piercing serpent, even Leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.”
Psalm 74:13 “Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength; thou breakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.”
Malachi 1:3 “And I hated Esau and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”
I was trying to make the point that just because the Bible mentions demons, it does not prove that they exist. How does one tell the difference between the evilness from a man’s own heart or the evilness perpetrated by a demon? Besides,don’t they say that evil does not exist in heaven?
Especially if they turn things over to the priest - to preform an exorcism