Has anyone read a book called the Naked Gospel by Andrew Farley? He uses the phrase “Jesus plus nothing”. Its a book mostly about the Law/Grace and the Gospel. Andrew raised an interesting point which I had not thought much about before regarding the fruit in the Garden A&E were not supposed to touch. He points out that the knowlege of good and evil opened the human race to morality and all that flows from it. Morality being something God is equiped to handle but humans are not, well, not perfectly anyway. Law and judgment flow out of morality and thus the fractured God/man relationship which The Lord Jesus mended. When I think of all the law required and necessary to run our modern functioning society it is staggering really. One can hardly sneeze without someone in authority holding up a finger!! Any thoughts on this?
Greetings, Sturmy.
Our “keeping” or celebrating of Sabbath is not an issue of keeping it for salvation or according to rabbinic Judaism. We have not “put ourselves under the “law””. We want to remember and celebrate these days because of the Savior’s fulfillment and, future fulfillment of them. It is a way for us to remember all He has done for us. We are not Jewish or practicing Judaism.
Yes, I understand there are grounds for Sunday worship in the Bible and, we have and do, in fact, worship on Sunday’s and other days as well. I have no objection to that whatsoever. It just isn’t the Sabbath, according the the Bible, which is called a day of rest. As I understand it, the 8th day was more included after the 7day “festivals” like Pesach and Sukkot and is not necessarily associated with the day after the 7th day sabbath.
I’m not sure about the early gentiles but, for my part, I understand from the Bible that we are grafted in to Israel, not the other way around.
I really don’t think they are binding as far as, our needing to keep them for salvation. But, I have found that they help me understand Jesus better. For instance, since He is our Pesach (Passover) Lamb, understanding the shadow picture of Passover has given me a greater understanding of who He is and what He did. These “shadow” days were important enough to God (who is Christ, correct?) to make great fanfare of them and I also read in Zech. that they will be an important part of Christ’s rein on earth in the future.
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
(Zec 14:16-20)
So, I keep it as a time piece, a celebration of victory in Him and for understanding, knowing it will be an important part of our future with Him.
I understand the history you are talking about and was a part of the “Roman” system of worship most of my life (though, it does not originate there) . It’s a lot further from “christianity” than you might think. If I am to err, I would have it be on the side of God’s law. However, as I have stated, I am not “under the law”. I keep it for understanding and also, because it is absolutely the best standard I have found of right and wrong. Also, my country’s laws were based on God’s laws to begin with so, it isn’t hard for me to understand that say, murder is wrong, or stealing, etc.
Having been a “gentile pagan” prior to my turning to the God of the Bible, I can understand the difficulty in understanding something so foreign as the Scriptures. I too, had to first be born again through the Spirit by Christ’s work on the cross before I began to understand that He also wants us to be holy and do what is right in His eyes. I too, understood that God does want something from us, not in exchange for His work on the cross but, because of it, because of the new spirit that was in me. I no longer wanted to follow the deeds of darkness. My desire was to “be like Him” to follow what He says is right. I had read the Tanakh and knew He had a standard of truth and I began to walk in it, yet in freedom from judgment. I continued in learning from Him and now walk in His perfect law of freedom much better. If I had started my days with Him with a huge daunting list, I may have turned back in frustration. I think the apostles wanted the beginning of the Galatians walk with Him to be first, in understanding He is the only way to be saved but, also saying, there is a standard of right and wrong that you don’t yet know but, just stay away from these few pagan things now and you will grow from there. My goal in following Him (because of the salvation I freely have in Him) is to follow the perfect law of liberty. Meaning, I want to do what God says is right and good and, I can do it without fearing a punishment of death (because Christ died for me). The result has been having joy in loving God and loving my neighbor in the way God’s law says we should and the way Jesus showed us we should. This is the Spirit of the law. In (Deu 30:10-16) it says . . . “If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.”
Do you “keep” Christmas and Easter? How about birthdays? Anniversaries? Are you keeping Sunday worship? Yes, than you too are observing special days and months and seasons. And, I am worried for you because, I know what and who Easter is. I understand what these days mean. They are shadow pictures too. But, they do not shadow what christians ignorantly, and/or somewhat presumptuously, say they mean. Is it better to keep a shadow day of ancient demons and celebrate and rehearse that, rather than the days the God of the Bible instituted and called holy? My opinion is no.
I agree with you that we are in bondage if we are trying to earn salvation through works of the law (which, I think I have already said) but, if we celebrate and rehearse these days in the Spirit with the blood covering of the Savior it is wisdom and freedom and understanding. We are now the temple of God. We are now priests unto God in the order of Melchizedek. Yeshua is our High Priest to the ages of the ages.
Yes, they are shadows. Shadows that have a reality. And that is how I celebrate and rehearse them, in the reality. The only reason we know anything about the reality is because we understand the shadow picture. Ask the christians you know these questions; What does it mean when we say Jesus is our Passover Lamb? What things do you know about the Passover? Then go on to the other shadow pictures. What do we really understand of the Messiah since all these are fulfilled in Him?
What is the “law of the Spirt”. If we do not have carte blance to be “lawless”, where do we find this “law of grace”? What are these elusive “laws” we should keep so we aren’t “lawless”? I would submit to you that the law is written on our hearts and minds and that it is Torah. That once we receive forgiveness for our sins via the work of Messiah on the cross, we then have the Spirit of God and keep His Torah “laws” without condemnation and to glorify Him. All kings and kingdoms have rules. He is the King of kings. Shouldn’t His law be the highest law and His subjects be obedient to Him?
That’s cool.
If the keeping of a pagan, christian “special day” can be somehow beneficial to those who don’t know Christ, how much more could be benefited by showing them the shadow picture of Christ? To the unbelieving, these days are parables of the Savior. Weren’t parables a shadow (or spiritual) picture of something real and concrete? How much better would that be than showing them a shadow picture leading back to ancient demons?
You are so right. In a “big shot ministry” world and people desiring authority over the masses, it could quickly become a day of bondage, of forcing the nation to proclaim “Jesus is the reason for the season” etc. Sort of like, Christmas and Easter now. I always have pressure on me to conform to the “normal” christian holidays. Only thing is, I understand the spiritual meanings of these “holy days” and for me, it is going back to the worship of ancient deities/demons.
The Israelites that “entered His rest” still kept the appointed days, even after they entered. And, according to Zechariah, we will keep the appointed day of Tabernacles after Jesus establishes His Kingship on Earth after Armageddon. Also, I have rested from any “work” of God’s perfect law for my own justification and keep these days with freedom and joy.
I hope that helps you and others to understand where I am coming from. I’m not Jewish, I don’t “go to church” and my decision to celebrate these days comes from my understanding of the worship of ancient deities/demons and my reading of the Holy Scriptures. I have committed my soul to the only One who can save and, I trust in Him and His work on the cross for my salvation/justification. My practice of these days and of keeping His Law is for me, the standard I have chosen to live my life by because I see that the Law of Yehovah is perfect and that is what I’m aiming for. If I can lend my will to Him in my behaviors and in honest integrity, draw near to Him, to make Him smile, to bring Him joy . . . that is my aim. Thank you for your post, Sturmy, and everyone. I know it is out of concern for what you see as me being “under the law” and I appreciate the accountability and challenge to be right with Christ. Please let me know if you see in my responses a faulty way. It is my joy to conform to Christ and obey Him. Thanks so much! Blessings and Peace!
Hi Chris,
I hadn’t thought about the Jewish diaspora being a part of the Galatian population but, I think you are right. Thanks for the insight! I was only thinking the population was gentile and Paul was the apostle to the gentiles (though he did deal with the Jews).
The whole thing can be a real mess. It is hard sometimes. I find that, like eternal torment, hating and kicking against the Torah is taught in the church. I would love to see people being free and joyful in it. Being a “slave of righteousness” can actually be awesome! 
Thanks again for the insight, it was awesome!
" . . . I shall keep His Torah continually, to the ages of the ages. And I will walk at liberty." Psm 119:44-45
Blessings in abundance, Chris!
Kelly
Hi Kelly,
I view things differently from you, but I see nothing wrong with your practice of celebrating the days as you do. Like Paul says, “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God…So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.”
I am one who considers every day alike, even though I recognize and enjoy contemplating the symbology of the rituals that God ordained for Israel. I think it’s beautiful that you observe these days in the freedom of the Spirit. It is only the looking to these things as necessary, as though Christ were not sufficient – to say that everyone must – which I would consider to be wrong. And I don’t think you’re saying that – or are you?
I could be wrong, but I don’t think others here have been trying to judge you. I think they are simply sharing their understanding.
Sonia
I have a friend in the Hebrew Roots movement. I’ve spent a little time over at the site he likes. They are talking about needing to getting circumcised, they are constantly bickering over when the new moon really begins, the real calendar. I see them as the unhealthy side of following Torah. They love God, yes, but the bondage I feel when I go there is heavy. Many of them seem to be being killed by the letter. They say many of the same things, that living Torah is a joy etc. I don’t feel that from you Kelly, and I pray you don’t end there. The Torah has become an idol to many, just as the Bible has become an idol to many.
The spirit gives life.
Thats why we must allow the Holy Spirit to guide us. We must trust in the Word of God, who’s living and breathing and sharper than any two edged sword, I’m talkin’ bout J E S U S. this is aimed at me as much as anyone, its so easy to just go to the Bible, but if thats all we do, we are missing out on the Living Word. Remember Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses all had no written word.
Give us this day our daily bread, Jesus said I am the bread from heaven.
I really appreciate this reminder, thanks. It’s easy to forget that knowing the scriptures well doesn’t replace an intimate faith and walk with Yeshua. The very early church and the apostles didn’t have the completed revelation – or necessarily any of the epistles. They lived the Holy Spirit. We might not have tongues now, but we can still drink straight from the Living Spring.
I didn’t come to UR from my knowledge of the scriptures. It was through a revelation from God, which I then tested the spirit to see if it was true.
We have so many interpretations, denominations, factions, from the very fact that so many people consider the bible to be the Word of God. If you want to do an interesting study look up the word Dabar(in conjunction with YHWH), its the OT word for the Word. Dabar has a face, a hand, touches people. Whenever I used to read “And the word of the Lord came to me…” or something similar I always assumed it was scripture in their head, or words in their head. Dabar and Logos are the same thing btw.
We don’t fellowship in those circles and I haven’t checked out their websites so, I can’t honestly speak with any knowledge or understanding of what they are doing or saying. I really shy away from any organized religion because it tends to be a movement of man and teachings of men instead of revelation of the Spirit in individual hearts. Religion seems to me, to lend itself to spiritual laziness in the hearts of good people that want to do what is right but, find it easier, because living the true Torah takes real devotion or because of persecution for having “different” ideas, to just slip into a religious group to have friends to be “like minded” with. I’m sure these “torah followers” would find me distasteful in my freedom which, I would not exchange for group mind control.
I am thankful that God spoke to the patriarchs the way He did and glad that He created the lights in the firmament to help us know His plan even from the beginning. I also believe these patriarchs, even from Adam, have passed the knowledge of God to the next generations until Moses wrote it down. It would have been pretty easy since Adam was still alive during the beginning of Noah’s life. Thanks so much for the comments, RHM. Have an awesomely blessed day!
Good point. Yes, I understand what you are saying. I think the reason there are so many denominations is that so many want the Scriptures to agree with their own thinking instead of them agreeing with what is written. That is why I don’t like religious organizations of man. I have found, especially in the original language that the written word is also spiritual, that the Torah is the image of Yehovah who became flesh and dwelt among us. The Torah is perfection, Yehovah is perfection. I have seen people use the written without spiritual knowledge, which leads to oppression . . . often. That is not how God ever wanted us to follow Torah. Even before the perfect came and became the perfect sacrifice, Yehovah wanted people to follow Him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. There was a ruling group who led Yehovah’s people away from that precept by oppressing them with the written word by “teaching” them what it said (or rather, what it did not say) and oppressed them with the rules they sinfully added to and took away from the true Torah. These were the Pharisees. Today, the rulers of the churches do the same thing. They take away Torah and teach instead the doctrines and commandments of men as truth. For me, throwing out the written Torah that reveals the true God and scrambling to find another “law” to live by is unnecessary when we can walk in the Law of liberty in a right way if we just seek Him. I not sure how others understand things. I was thrust into the spiritual realm from the time I was very, very young. I read the Spirit in the written text. They are the same to me. I am physical and spiritual. When I read, I read physical and spiritual. In the same way I embody two realms, so I see the Torah embodying two realms. If I spiritually walk out Torah, I sin much less in the flesh against my neighbor, I do not walk in sin knowingly but, seek that which pleases God and that is my joy.
Good Morning WAAB!
Knowing scripture well should cultivate an intimate faith and walk with Yeshua. I think the religious doctrines and rules kill intimate faith and our walk with Him. We listen too much to the doctrines of men and too little to the true written word. That is what makes us sometimes rebel against God’s written word. I do think the early church (the apostles and jews following Yeshua) did have a completed revelation. Yeshua was the completion, the fulfillment of all that they had eagerly waited for. The writings they had foretold the Savior, how to recognize Him and what He would do. To these people of His, He was the God of the writings and they knew He was the Savior that would come. Yehovah is Salvation is what "Jesus’ name means). They are One. I see no division between OT and NT. I see one fulfilled in the other. If one sees the written word as even only a shadow of the spiritual reality it still brings revelation and understanding of the reality. I find it to be a great standard of objective truth. I have seen people, even christians, follow a spirit that is anti the written word (anti the foreshadow of Yeshua) and call it Jesus. Sometimes, our own minds deceive us if we are too subjective in our realities. It is good to have a standard that is not only within us but, is testable by objective truth, don’t you think?
Thank you for your thoughts. I enjoy hearing where people are and thoughts that I have not pondered. Blessings and Peace!
Kelly
Hi Sonia,
No, I have no authority to force anyone to follow these days, nor would I force any if I did have the authority. This is a matter of the heart in each individual. This thread, for me, is a call to understand what we rehearse spiritually with the pagan days and perhaps encourage others to celebrate (if they choose to celebrate anything) these days of Yehovah that are so beautifully loaded with the image and knowledge of our Savior. It is a huge faith builder. These days (pagan or Yehovah’s) are more than just symbolic. They are spiritual rehearsals. There is spiritual power in them. I’m actually more familiar with the pagan rehearsals but, I love Yehovah’s days and want to rehearse their meaning in the Spirit. They are for signs.
Not sure what you mean by “judging” me. I do think other people in their understanding of what they thought I was doing did bring them to think of me as “being under the law” or they would not have said so. I suppose it is a judgment for them to see me as opposing the scriptures that clearly say we can not work for our own salvation/justification. I am perfectly fine with that. I think we should speak honestly with each other. However, I thought the judgment was incorrect because I am not trying to keep the law to be saved which, I think everyone understands at this point. I don’t regard judging as evil. Just like I don’t run when I see a policeman. I have no reason to run and if I am caught doing something that is wrong, I need to amend my ways. I appreciate the accountability to scripture and am very open to it because my goal is to do my very best not, slip through the gates knowing I could have been a better wife, a better mom, a better friend, a better believer, etc., or to choose instead to abdicate my position of grace and use it as an excuse to live at the lowest common denominator.
Thanks for just being you, Sonia. I appreciate you wisdom. Blessings! Kelly
I apologize, I should have said “the completed canon”, not “the completed revelation”. Yeshua is the fullness of God; He is the completed revelation alone.
I confess, I don’t understand your exact position as I haven’t read your every post and I’m having a little trouble following it – so we may actually agree! 
But I have to admit that at present, I find your OT practice a little irksome – of things like the Sabbath [Edit One: should have read “Passover” and has consequently misled the following discussion – I wasn’t thinking, sorry for the confusion!], which marked a past event, that pointed to a future event, of which has now passed into fulfillment 2000 years ago. Isn’t it better to just commemorate this past event in the Eucharist, which was instituted by Yeshua and Paul, as a distinctly Christian “ritual” made for this purpose, without having to maintain the shadowy typology? I’m interested in your thoughts on the benefits of doing differently. I do appreciate that you’ve committed yourself to diligent and prayerful study of the scriptures on this topic though (more so than I). As for myself, I began my real faith (that which practiced works) from the conviction that Yeshua is the sole authority upon our theology and practice today, and that the prophets of old are strictly precursory. From there I initially neglected the Hebrew scriptures in their entirety for a number of years, almost in a Marcionite sense. I wholly admit this was mistaken. But I still remain staunchly committed to a hermeneutic that is definitively of Yeshua.
I believe that Yeshua had to break the letter of the Law, in order to fulfill the spirit of the Law, (that which He outlined in Matthew 22:37-39 and which Paul repeated in Romans 13:8-10). I believe that the OT Law in any lettered sense is no longer binding, although it still exists for the Jews to show them their present bondage in it and point them to the profound liberty found in the person of the Christ. So yes, I reject and rebel against the written Word, that I may serve and live the Word of God. I could never encourage someone to embrace a shadow, when they can embrace the actual person.
Well, we do have an objective truth that is our standard, and that is Yeshua alone (who taught and practiced active and self-sacrificial love and humility). But if you’re implicating the usefulness of the Law as the objective standard, then I can’t disagree with you more. A set of laws is not the Life of Christ, it is not Spirit, nor is it meaningful Liberty. I think the natural Man truly loathes and fears liberty – just as the Hebrews feared God (the source of all liberty) on Mount Sinai where the Law was then added as a concession. There is a strong tendency for us Christians to also reject true liberty, and return to the surety of things like the Mosaic Law, where a specific cause always precedes a specific reaction. It’s “safe”, it’s quantifiable, but it’s Life-less and we have been freed from it …
I would really love to expand on this and make it a bit more coherent and compelling, but I really don’t have the time to tackle this huge subject. Simply though, I maintain that Christians must be priests and prophets, doers and proclaimers of the Kingdom of God, a Kingdom of Love and Liberty. Not of the Law that binds.
[Edited One: I think ‘irksome’ was the wrong word to use, and may have been a tad offensive. I couldn’t (and still can’t) find a more accurate word to use, but I think ‘different and mildly unsettling’ may have been softer and more appropriate. I also slightly modified my understanding of the Passover and Eucharist above.]
Godspeed,
Andrew
Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement.
Thanks Kelly B (and others) for your various posts
I’ve taken a while to get back and do plan to give a more considered response; which I shall do, but frankly haven’t made the time.
So a short message at present to say I think I can see where you’re coming from. I’ll sit down and frame a couple of questions soon.
With regards the Sabbath issue I certainly did not intend any judgement which perhaps you thought I did. Obviously if one differs in an opinion or belief one has made a considered judgement of sorts but I think the point is it is the belief or argument being addressed that is being judged not the proposer- sometimes we confuse the two.
God bless S
Hey Sturmy,
Thank you for the post. I am not real concerned with the judgment thing. If you make a judgment against what my beliefs are, I will consider seriously what you are saying. I know I am not perfect in all my thoughts or ways and I welcome your thoughts. I take these judgments as you have said in your last sentence, about a certain belief or argument and not as a judgment against my soul and future ages with God. I see it the same way. Thank you, again!
Kelly
Hello Andrew,
I’m sorry you find my “OT practice” irksome. It is not my intent to disrupt any person in their peace by my practices. The Sabbath. The reason for the practice is this. Even though I am resting from my work in The Messiah I still have to “work”. I’m talking about housework, lawn maintenance, car maintenance, cutting firewood for the winter, canning foods, schooling children, keeping the budget, etc., etc., I have chosen to keep the 7th day Sabbath as God affirms, even from creation to “rehearse” this day when I am totally set free from this world and all that it takes to maintain the flesh and care for my family. I found no Scriptural basis to “practice resting” on Sunday so, I just kept as close to the Bible as possible. If I did not take this day to solely focus on my redeemer, I would find the few hours a day I get totally inadequate. I am trying to be diligent to enter that rest and prepare my heart for my Savior. I hope that helps give you peace. I don’t find the Christian Eucharist to my liking much. It seems mostly to me to be a religious rite that is a shadow picture wannabe. The word translated Communion in the new testament should be translated as fellowship which, in my experience embodies the celebration of the Sabbath. I think we do agree on a Yeshua hermeneutic. I know all things are fulfilled in Him. I know my salvation comes through Him and I can not work for it in any way. My OT position is that of “seeing” how He fulfills and celebrating that. I also see that if I keep the “Law of the Spirit” the law of the flesh is met also. I know he is the final sacrifice and our high priest and His coming and fulfilling caused a change in the priesthood and in the sacrifices. I don’t know how you believe but, I believe God is One. Yeshua was the Creator. He and the Father are One. So, when I read the OT, as you call it, I see Him in every part. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change.
I have not seen one example of Yeshua breaking the letter of the Law (Yehovah’s Torah). I see Him fulfilling it. Romans 13:8-10 is Paul saying that love is keeping the commandments which, he repeats in vs9., then says, that when you keep the commandments you are doing two things; loving your neighbor by not harming him (like stealing from him or murdering him or taking his wife) and also, you are fulfilling the law (ie: the commandments of God). You are right that the Torah is not binding to obtain salvation. How can you know the actual person of Christ if you don’t know the written word? Do you understand the doctrine of baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment? Paul says these are “milk” and that those who don’t understand them need to be taught the first principles of the oracles of God (The OT Scriptures). Also, Hebrews states that David and many others, though they kept Torah and delighted in it, lived by faith. It says that Moses kept the Passover by faith (not law). And that is what I do. I keep the days of Yehovah and Torah by faith. Not for salvation.
I totally understand about the time to write, Andrew. Don’t worry about that. I am really tired right now but, wanted to get back with you since I haven’t been on the boards for a while.
If Yeshua fulfilled the law, then His fulfillment of the Torah of God (His own Torah) was how He practiced active and self sacrificial love and humility. He is the Passover Lamb, can’t get a more active, self sacrificing example of love and humility than that. But, He did not “do away” with the sacrifice, He became the sacrifice. In the same way, He became the living Torah. I am keeping Torah. Not because I am bound but, because I have been set free. I am a “slave of righteousness”. I have the Holy Spirit living in and directing me. When I read the written Torah, the Spirit doesn’t conflict. What I do by the Spirit keeps me from sinning against Torah. I grew up in a time and place where I drank a beer driving down the street in our town with a loaded shot gun and a rope in the back window of my pickup. I grew up on Hank Williams Jr., who just called Obama a Nazi on national television. I sure the hell ain’t afraid of freedom! (to put the statement in the vernacular of that time). Ya know, those rednecks were a law unto themselves. They govern themselves so they won’t have to be governed by others. You do what’s right which meant, don’t hurt or kill anyone and don’t destroy other people’s property. Pruddy much sums up the law and the prophets, huh? There is right and wrong. God’s right, everyone else is wrong (unless they agree with God). Even the red necks understand that much. I guess I don’t understand the big push against what God says is right. Especially, when you are already free from keeping the law for your own salvation. I hope this helps in understanding where I’m coming from. I pray you lose no peace on my account, Andrew. I think it a great sentiment of godly love that you care enough about others to be that concerned about what they are doing. I feel blessed to correspond with you. Godspeed to you too, friend!
Godspeed,
Andrew
Kelly, I’m really sorry for my clumsy post before. I must’ve been very tired as I totally butchered it. I try to use accurate words (irksome was not one), I try to use proper terms (I had meant Passover when I wrote Sabbath!) and I try to retain a habit of referring to the “OT” as the “Hebrew scriptures”. All of which I did not do! I do apologise, I really muddled my last post.
I don’t care much for Sundays myself; my fellowship serves and worships on a Tuesday. I don’t generally endorse “churches” and I wholly reject priesthood castes (but I do go to a service on Sunday for the lovely fellowship and to comfort my more conservative folks). I do wonder though, why you prefer to celebrate a ritual (passover) which marks a past event, that points to a future event, of which has now passed into fulfillment some two thousand years ago. Isn’t it better to just commemorate this one past event in the Eucharist (which the passover points back to, to point forwards to), which was instituted by Yeshua and Paul as a distinctly Christian activity made for this express purpose, without having to maintain the shadowy typology of the passover? I’m interested in your thoughts on the benefits of retaining it.
I’m just curious, do you believe that Yeshua and Yahweh are the same person?
But do you endeavour to keep the whole Biblical-Torah?
I’ve lost no peace on your account, I assure you; and you are much too gracious! I barely made any sense; my post was all over the place! I should really stop writing this late in the evening, I think. And I should really read your other posts and have a proper think about it before I blab on! And I hope it didn’t/doesn’t sound like I’m heresy-hunting or trying to argue with you, I’m just interested! You have an interesting theology! 
Godspeed,
Andrew
I am not a Jew.
John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
I am not supported by the branches, I am supported by the root. I did not not need to become a Jew, or one like the Jew because I am grafted into the root.
Romans 11:16-19
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Acts 15:8-11
And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
I am not governed by the Law of Moses, nor do those laws apply to me. We are not saved by the Law and what it commanded, nor are we instructed as Gentiles to ever live by the Law or what it commanded.
Andrew,
Thank you. That is so kind of you. Please forgive me, I have been doing the same things, including writing when I’m too tired or when I have other things I should be attending to.
You are a good son to comfort your folks, Andrew and a better man to stand in your own convictions while you comfort them. I’m sure you bring them great joy! I’m with you on the “churches” idea. I also agree that we can and should fellowship and serve any day. I would even encourage someone to fellowship on Sunday. I only reserve Saturday for rest.
Thank you for asking what I believe concerning the Passover, instead of assuming and condemning me as “under the law”. Please forgive me Andrew. Much of my confusion of what people are saying comes because I do not have a good understanding of different theologies. I’m not completely sure what you mean by Eucharist. Is it different among different christian sects? I am thinking you mean the bread and wine like in the “supper” Yeshua had with His disiples. Is that right? Our family does take the wine and bread as reflected in Yeshua’s time with His disciples prior to the Passover in which He was sacrificed. My husband leads our family in it. We usually do this on the day He did before Passover and we do it on the Sabbath. We rehearse the “wedding supper” on the Sabbath and Yeshua “drinking anew” with us in His Father’s Kingdom.
Our observance of Passover is a celebration of the fulfillment of the types and shadows in Yeshua. Besides (IMO) Christmas and Easter being wholly inadequate to paint a clear picture of Yeshua, They both leave out the whole reason He came – to die for us and release us from the bondage of sin. We use the the Biblical writings about Passover as an outline to rejoice and praise God for His fulfillment of it. True, it has passed into fulfillment but, it is in this fulfillment we now live and looking forward to the next fulfillment. And, we celebrate all that Yeshua is to us in that context. Our family eats and drinks and laughs and we encourage each other with Yeshua’s words and in how He fulfilled the shadow pictures.
I am not trying to be dogmatic but, the book of John shows the “supper” with Yeshua was before the Passover. I agree with this because how could Yeshua BE the Passover Lamb if He was eating and drinking with the disciples instead of being sacrificed? This is one of the reasons we still celebrate Passover, as well as, taking the wine and the bread. In the book of Hebrews, it says Moses kept the Passover by faith. I do too. I keep it as a celebration of what Yeshua has done for us and the promises we have for the next ages because of it. We do celebrate these with people but, not always the same people. We usually just free form it without making traditions of our own because we want the Holy Spirit to lead us in our remembrances of Yeshua. I find it always fresh, always exciting. I get extremely bored with religious “must do’s”. Relationship with God is so exciting and alive, I struggle with the dead boredom of religion. I find in the Appointed Days form but, just enough to enhance and enliven the relationship.
LOL! The mystery of the ages. Who can explain it? Not me. All I can say is they are One and that is no more than what Yeshua tells us. And yet, they are distinct. Yeshua or Yehoshua’s name literally means “YEHOVAH IS SALVATION”. Yehovah tells us He will save us Himself and we see in Yeshua’s name that He did come or rather, Yeshua came in His Name. I am inadequate to understand or explain it perfectly. I just accept what He has said even though I don’t completely understand it.
Please help me understand what you mean by “endeavor to keep the whole Biblical Torah”.
If I do understand what you are asking then I would say that I do not keep it as one who is bound to keep it for my own salvation. The way it works for me, and actually my whole family is, Yeshua has fulfilled Torah perfectly, embodied it. The Torah is perfection, Yeshua is perfection. Because He was our perfect righteousness, when we could not be, we bow to Him and take His covering. He gave us the Holy Spirit so, we can actually operate in Him, Glorify Him though we are still in the flesh and the flesh still fights against the His Spirit within us. So, we “beat our bodies” into submission the best we can. The flesh does not desire God so, we put it down by the Spirit that the righteousness of Messiah can shine through our earthly vessels. We do “aim for perfection” yet, our perfection is in Him. So, I find that if I live by faith, in the Spirit, my outward appearance does conform to the written Torah though, I do not live as bound by the law. At times, because I live by the Spirit, I have bound my flesh to Torah to do what is right when my flesh would have caused me to sin against God or my neighbor. The Torah of Yehovah is written on my heart and mind not just on tablets of stone so, I do conform to it though I do not find it oppressive but, freeing especially, compared to the laws of men. When Yehovah brought His people out of Egypt, He freed them from the laws and tyranny of a man that wanted to be God. Yehovah lead them away from the bondage. He gave them rest. He fed them. He cared for them. He didn’t burden them and use them relentlessly. He gave them mercy. He gave them good and just laws to live by so they didn’t oppress each other. Though, some still felt oppressed by Him. I am no longer a “slave of sin” but, a “slave of righteousness”. What is righteousness? Yeshua is righteousness. Yeshua was righteous in all His ways because He was perfect according to God’s definition of perfect. God’s definition of perfect is Torah. He gave us His Spirit because we are weak and can’t keep Torah perfectly, like Yeshua did. I think Yehovah gave Torah so we could know who He is. He is Spirit. How do we recognize Him? As the perfect being. Yeshua came and gave us the same image yet, covered in flesh. I do not fear keeping Torah because my life does not depend on it. My life is in Yeshua. I can love God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and love my neighbor as myself by the Spirit which, when I stand face to face with my neighbor looks exactly like keeping God’s law in the flesh. Do you see what I mean?
My theology, I think, is seemingly all over the place. On the other thread, people are throwing out different words to try to describe what religious persuasion or sect I may belong to. I don’t fellowship in any designated sect. I read my Bible. Our family discusses and debates it. We conform to what we see Yeshua doing as much as possible, constantly. We change and grow a lot, all the time. We work in the Spirit realm against forces of darkness. We fellowship with others whom God sets us with who want to do the same. We don’t make for ourselves statements of faith and dogmas. We only seek to conform to truth. We raised our children with Torah. They are a joy to me. Their relationship with God is beautiful and I am thankful for the wisdom of the Bible because if I would have raised them “the best I knew how” they would have been a mess. My experience is similar to the writings of Psalms, “Those who sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, bound in affliction and irons-because they rebelled against the words of God, and despised the counsel of the Most High therefore, He brought down their heart with labor; they fell down and there was none to help. Then, they cried out to Yehovah in their trouble and He saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death and broke their chains in pieces. Oh, that men would give thanks to Yehovah for His goodness and for His wonderful works to the children of men! So, I conclude with the idea that the Torah is a joy to me. He is a joy to me. Thank you, Andrew for your post. Your words are soothing. And, I am thankful I didn’t disrupt that peace. Golly, what were you saying about blabbing on? 