The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Christians And Alcohol

It doesn’t matter whether salt is apt or not. We don’t actually die without consuming salt per se, because in consuming food, we satisfy any ordinary need for sodium. Salt as a seasoning is, in nearly all cases, a luxury and not a necessity. If you really want scripture for the wine thing (aside from the to me compelling case concerning the wedding of Cana), here is something from the OT that once upon a time used to trouble me:

Granted, fresh grape juice would certainly make anyone’s heart glad, but grape juice doesn’t stay fresh for long. You either drink it or (nowadays) bottle, can, freeze it, or you ferment it. The ancients didn’t have the means to preserve by the first three. They used the fourth. There simply was no alternative, except in some folks’ wishful thinking. There’s NOTHING wrong with abstaining from alcohol so long as one does it in a spirit of love and humility. There’s nothing wrong with drinking alcohol in moderation, so long as one does it in a spirit of love and humility.

As for the subjects of David’s song, wine made their hearts glad. I think it’s a stretch to insist that refers only to fresh grape juice. In fact, I think it’s frankly dishonest, even though one really, really wants it to be the truth. The law of the tithe states that a man could exchange his tithe for money if he lived too far to conveniently transport his produce, livestock, etc. to Jerusalem. Once he got there, he could exchange the money for food and drink (explicitly specifying “strong drink”) and feast with his family and servants. (Interesting that a great deal of the tithe ends up being spent on festival foods in many of the prescribed holidays, but that’s another subject.)

I’ve actually agonized over this for decades, Hermano. I was raised a Methodist back when Methodists were fairly adamant about teetotalism, including my dad–and I loved my dad and greatly respected him. Now that he’s gone on ahead to be with the Lord, I still feel the same about him. He was, imo, mistaken about this. Scripture does not teach teetotalism. It just doesn’t. Now you may legitimately conjecture that loving servants of Christ have a duty not to imbibe because of the harm alcohol does to many people. That would imo at least be a viable position. If that’s your position, it doesn’t really matter what the bible says about it. If you can make the case that it’s unloving to drink alcoholic beverages, then you’ve made your point completely. I just don’t see that this is always the case. Sometimes it IS the case, but then sometimes it’s the case that it’s very unloving to give your aunt a box of chocolates for Christmas. We all have our weaknesses. Just because I shouldn’t eat a super duper deluxly huge chocolate peanut-butter caramel pecan sundae doesn’t mean that it would be wrong for YOU to do. If I were having a weak day, it might be more loving for you to ask me to have a cup of coffee with you than to suggest a pop-in to the local homemade ice cream shoppe, but that doesn’t make ice cream eating a sin. And before you might possibly suggest that over-eating isn’t nearly as harmful as over-drinking, I suggest you visit your local Sam’s Club and take note of the young people riding around on the scooters provided for the old and feeble–because they can no longer comfortably support their own weight as they navigate the grocery store to purchase–well–stuff they really ought not eat in many cases. ANYTHING can become sin when done to excess. Even chocolate. :wink:

This isn’t meant as a diatribe against your ideas. If it’s sin to you, then it’s definitely sin, and you shouldn’t do it. It’s not sin to me. I seldom drink, but I don’t in any way consider it sinful to have a glass of wine if I want to. Nor to share it with others who aren’t alcoholics or who don’t consider it sin for a Christ follower to drink. Jesus drank, and while He probably had grape juice in the few weeks during which it was available, there’s no way He could have drunk unfermented “wine” year round without miraculous intervention. It just wasn’t even a possibility.

This was one of Israel’s problems, which I think still persists today. Pointing to the scriptures, they believed it was not good to eat certain foods. So they made many laws banning people from eating such things as they deemed improper. This is why Jesus says in Matthew 15:11, “Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a man.” Again, in Mark 7:15 “There is nothing that enters a man from the outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.”
It is not up to us to say what food or drink is good for someone else because each person is different.

Moderate and low alcohol consumption has suddenly become big news in the UK and the headlines are that the Department of Health has changed its position on alcohol consumption.
The very latest scientific information concludes that:

bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35252650

Everything carries some risk. The “processed” foods we eat, the soda pops we drink, the preservatives in our food, the air we breath,etc. Even the conventional medicines we take (ever notice in drug commercials all the listings of side effects?).

Let me inject a “controversial” item here. Let’s throw in pot. As a “recreational” drug, it probably has health risks. In the hands of the right medical physician, it can be curing or helping us cope, with certain health problems. Of course, my view is this: (in the US at least): it should first be legalized at the federal level and have the blessing of the American Medical Association. And the equivalent in other countries. And as a sideline - if the Amish can make a living growing tobacco, with all the know health risks - they probably won’t have any objections to growing “legalized” pot.

And I’ve mentioned this before. Any current scientific conclusions have to be put into perspective, by surveying the current scientific experimental undertakings on the scientific hypothesis (or multiple scientific hypothesis) in question.

I don’t consider it sin either. But it is definitely not needed. I have lived my entire life without alcohol consumption and since most people tend to have issues with moderation, it would be wise for any person to avoid that which can very easily be over consumed.

Look at all the fat people. That is called lack of self-control. Now, ask yourself, should these people starting drinking? Heavens, if they can’t control other aspects of their lives, why would we assume they could control that?

Do you have any statistical data to quantify that statement?

:unamused:

Well, Gabe. I can just as easily say the moon is made of green cheese. The earth is flat (i.e. the Flat Earth Society does). Or be like the cartoon character below: :laughing:

I didn’t realize you were blind and lived in a town of 2 people. Hence the :unamused:

Still, Gabe. I can make any statement and say it is true. But without scientific experiments, statistical polling, professional opinions, etc., most folks may or may not believe me - unless I’m someone noteworthy. The word I have trouble with is “most” - it needs to be quantified. So the ball is in your court - so to speak :smiley:

No it isn’t, because I don’t care if you believe what I said. :laughing:

There is quite a bit of data that suggests that it is more about the types (and quality) of foods and beverages in regards to obesity rather than simply the amount of food. I’m not sure that is necessarily a self control issue across the board, FWIW.

What did Jesus say?
To me the matter is settled.

See, some people think I am insensitive nazi, but I merely bold about stating what I feel are excuses and double standards. We are all sinful people. We should not strive to sin, we should seek to obtain self control in ALL areas of our lives. When we make excuses for vices, we rob ourselves of the power to change. Christ gave us the power to choose.

It is not a sin to eat food. It is a sin to consume too much. It is a sin to consume food that you know is unhealthy on a regular basis. You still have a choice of what you put into your mouth. If the scale is going up, you put the fork down. If the pants are getting tighter, you put the fork down. Instead, people buy bigger pants and call themselves big boned and blame it on their food choices - as if they have no choice on what they eat? This isn’t about fat shaming. This is about taking care of our bodies. But we are all sinful. We have struggle. But to say that we should lose the struggle, or consistently fail is nothing other than a setup for a self-fulfilling prophecy. Believe you have no power over eating that cake and you won’t have power over not eating. It is the same for all vices.

Some people have trouble with alcohol. There is no harm in drinking alcohol. But, is it wise to drink alcohol if one does not currently have a taste for it? Would anyone suggest it wise to tell someone “You should drink a shot of whisky, it will help you feel better.” when said person does not drink at all? I mean, would the potential good outweigh the bad? Especially in a society that tends to over-indulge? Is a shot of whisky sinful for someone who has self-control? by no means. But is it wise to suggest one should drink it, knowing full well the consequences that may await (potential addiction, drinking and driving, public intoxication even if only by mistake)?

There is this thing called wisdom - we have the ability to look at the pros and cons of a behavior and make a wise decision. Each person is accountable for their own actions. We must also lookout for the well being of others and not provide a stumbling block for them.

As for vices, some people can’t give up their latte in the morning as they are addicted to large amounts of caffeine and sugar… Some can’t give up smoking, some drinking, some eating donuts and pastries. Some can’t quit looking at porn or being contentious. This is the worlds lies… People can absolutely give up these addictions and to believe they can’t keeps them into this mindset. This isn’t to suggest we can simply flip a switch and never do anything wrong again, but the point remains we are making choices every day and making an excuse for them does nothing to improve our situation. We are sinful. This is why I think love is ultimately the most important thing. Love can look past the sinner and love them. Eventually this love will works towards the freeing of the sinner. Sometimes this love is tough and telling someone it is totally “OK” to destroy themselves is not love and neither is condemning them. Both are totally polar opposite and the wrong way to help people. We call the sin out, warn the person, pray for them and help them. In the end, it is in God’s hands and we must show love and support while still making clear the destruction that sinful vices cause and we definitely don’t address only the ‘taboo’ vices. We address them all.

By the way, I am not really a futurist, but I’ll tell you this… It seems this verse can only apply to today in increasing forms…

II Timothy 3:1-5 "But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. "

Never before does it seem has the world displayed these qualities to the greatest. It seems self-control does not exist and we ramp up more and more dollars to addiction recovery. Children today have no respect for their parents. We love pleasure more than anything else. Many in the church appear to be godly, only to be found in the headlines as having done some great evil.

As a person who works as an IT professional for the last 15 years, I feel that technology is ultimately going to destroy us morally. It isn’t that technology itself is inherently evil, it is just that technology makes evil that much more obtainable. When the One-Laptop-Per-Child initiative was deployed, it was found a year later a large majority of those devices were used to access pornography, rather than school work, for which they were intended. This is astonishing. When the rest of the world catches up to the US and other first worlds on a technological level, we are going to have a globe full of technology zombies. People who can’t put their phones down and stop posting useless banter on Facebook. People who spend more time posting pictures of cats than helping their fellow brethren. People creating movies that serve no purpose other than to pass the time. As virtual reality starts to make a serious debut into the mainstream, this will only worsen the zombie condition. People will no longer go outside, instead, rather, they will live in the world of avatar. Fantasy will become their reality. There was a movie called the “Surrogates” and wow, if that isn’t what is happening to our society…

It is sad. I used to love technology, now I see the real harm it is doing us morally. I am not a doom and gloom person, but it is hard to not see society going into a downward spiral as we become more and more connected to our devices. People don’t even have face to face conversations anymore. The world is changing and I fear for the worse.

I used to be a software engineer and fluent in different programming languages and software. It’s all a matter of perspective. Like how do we handle artificial intelligence? Or a society of robots doing the manual labor? For a Geek or Nerd, it is heaven on earth - except when they fight among themselves. I have to try this video technology idea.:exclamation: :laughing:



I was able - with the help of some electrical and mechanical engineers to modify the Sheldon design - make it more streamlines! :exclamation: :laughing:

Gabe, that is precisely why I avoid ice cream. :wink:

I love icecream and cookies too. But I avoid it aside from special occasions. You wrote a great piece on Freedom with an example of cleaning your room makes you free to enjoy it. Likewise, eating healthy allows you to enjoy other aspects of live that you couldn’t if you always obeyed your urges, you know? Of course you know - You wrote the article on it. I think when viewed in that light, people can make wise decisions without feeling like they are losing something. In other words, looking at what you are gaining! :slight_smile:

Hi Gabe, I really didn’t want to insinuate you are an insensitive Nazi!

Sorry if you took what I said as alluding to that.

Chad

Like this :question: :laughing: