Is the duration of this unknown or is it until the resurrection?
Or, do you use the word “forever” to mean something other than eternal? In either case, it seems a little misleading to me.
The greek word for “forever” is usually “aionios” and “aion” means an age so adding the “ios” in my understanding means “pertaining to the age” although there are other related definitions but none meaning literally forever.
Yeah, I’m asking particularly of Jeff’s use of the word “forever” as in #10 of his beliefs.
I didn’t see how this article explains how Christ can be worshiped if he is merely a created being and not very God. Also seems like the article ought to address Romans 9:5 which clearly assigns both full humanity and full deity to Christ. I am not buying it.
Good point. My understanding is that fallen angels are not redeemed… OR at least Scripture ends with their damnation and the complete realized redemption of all humanity. In history past Irenaeus also held to the complete salvation of mankind, but the eternal damnation of fallen angels. I also think the Scriptures are worded to preach fear to the unbelieving elect. That is, since unbelievers reject their election and their savior, Christ warns them that IF he is not their savior, then they will share the destiny of the unredeemed fallen angels. Of course Christ and believers know that Jesus IS their savior! So I believe humans will never enter the LOF, but apart from confident faith, they do not know the Father’s love, but only fear… fear manifest as false religion and atheism.
That said you have moved me to make an adjustment to the proposed statement. I will replace ‘forever’ with the ‘The Ages of The Ages’ in the case of the fallen angels. That is a better match with Revelation 20:10 Seems to me that the Scriptures end with Satan and his angels burning in the LOF, which I believe is prepared soley for them. They are the goats on Jesus left, Matt 25:41. So am I not dogmatically saying that Christ could not also save the fallen angels sometime beyond the last page of Scripture. But I do not think the Scripture say enough to make a conclusion about the eternal destiny of fallen angels, dgjc.org/optimism/hebrews-2-16-does-not-say-fallen-angels-are-damned.
Thank you for that comment. My goal in posting a statement of faith was to stimulate effort toward fellowship around essential truth.
I believe the justification of all mankind, every individual human being, happened once for all at the cross. All mankind is justified whether in belief or unbelief. So as far as God is concerned all mankind has been elected, predestined, and is legally righteous before holy God right now. In fact, since Christ was ‘slain before the Creation of the world’, that is his work in time was guaranteed to accomplish its purpose before time even started, all mankind has never been outside of the Father’s love.
How should we word #6 better in the statement?
The problem instead is the heart of man and each individual’s willingness to receive grace. So no one is a Christian until their heart has been changed by the Holy Spirit and they have received their justification. I’ve written a couple of articles that speak directly to this point…
dgjc.org/dgjc/in-doctrine and dgjc.org/dgjc/justified.
I will post a revised statement.
Ok, thanks for the useful comments. Trying to work toward a statement and making a revision below. Hey here is a crazy suggestion. Sometimes the discussion in these channels goes wild… and unfruitful. I don’t want to sound controlling, but since I started this post, why not try to persuade me to make changes to the statement and let me post back. If you want a radically different statement (such that Jesus is not God or something) then start another post.
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In one true God, existing eternally as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, John 14:9-21.
That the Old and New Testaments are the unique, inerrant, inspired Word of God in the original autographs, and the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct, 2 Tim 3:16.
In the sovereignty and active rule of God in creation, the fall, history, revelation, redemption, and final judgment, Romans 8:20-21. That man was created by God in His image, but that since Adam’s sin, all men are sinful and by nature objects deserving of God’s wrath, Ephesians 2:3.
That Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, fully human and fully divine, eternally existing as God, yet born in time of a virgin, and that He lived a sinless and perfect life, 2 Timothy 2:5.
In the historic death of Jesus as the full and only atonement for the sins of all mankind, in His bodily resurrection from the dead, and in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, 1 John 2:1-2.
That all mankind is justified by the grace of God and redeemed on the basis of the death of Christ alone, which is received through faith alone, Ephesians 2:8-9.
That the Holy Spirit is the effective agent in regeneration, bringing individuals to faith and transformed lives, 2 Corinthians 3:18. In one invisible, universal church, the Body of Christ, to which all true believers belong, and in local churches accountable to God, governed by officers with the authority to rule in matters of belief and discipline, Hebrews 13:17.
That believing mankind is rewarded in paradise after death, while unbelievers suffer punishment in Hades after death merited by their sinful nature and their rejection of the grace of Christ, Luke 16:19-31.
In the future, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory. Titus 2:13.
In the final resurrection of redeemed mankind to the enjoyment of God forever, and the damnation of the unredeemed to the Lake of Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels, for The Ages of The Ages, Matthew 25:31-46.
Jeff, I’m not asking you to buy it. I think it does justice to the full biblical teaching, and you quoting a verse or two which are open to interpretation does not undo the weight of the article one bit. You did not attempt to argue with the points that were made, I notice.
However, I’m not going to pursue it. One of us is wrong on this point, but it’s not a point that should drive us apart from our Christian bonds. 
Jeff - sorry, I guess our posts were done at the same moment. I apologize for wandering off-point; somehow I thought I was going along with the thread, but hey I’m old, cut me some slack, K? 
Sure enough. Slack given. I didn’t mind your post at all. To clarify as I posted a revision to the initial 12 point statement I was only asking the forum to honor the initial post and try to persuade me to make adjustments to the statement. Otherwise everyone will be posting back entire revisions which could get confusing.
Now I did consider the goal of the 12 point statement was to list doctrines essential to a right understanding of God and to hold Christian faith. To be sure real Christian faith is much more than mental agreement to truth, that is a bowed head, but also a bowed heart and knee. However, agreement to truth about God, ourselves, and his world is still a very important exercise.
That said, statement #1 highlights the trinity. Frankly I don’t think someone can be a follower and worshiper of the Christ who actually is and deny his divinity. Though I look forward to further friendly discussion.
Honestly, between the two, I prefer “forever.” “The Ages of The Ages” almost seems overly wordy and ambiguous, and therefore one would be suspicious of a hidden bias. Given your explanation that it in your beliefs applies to the devil and his angels, I see where you’re coming from. My beef was that the “forever” seemed to apply to the unredeemed of mankind, which is how most people would take it, I think. So I think the solution could be to reword it so that the forever is more clearly referring to the LoF prepared for the devil and his angels. Perhaps something like this? “In the final resurrection of redeemed mankind to the enjoyment of God forever, and the damnation of the unredeemed to the Lake of Fire in which the Devil and his angels will remain forever.”
By including the word “all”, it seems you’re implying that all will be justified. Or, if you want to keep the word all, perhaps something like this. “That all mankind can be justified only by the grace of God, and be redeemed on the basis of the death of Christ alone, which is received through faith alone.”
Jeff - this question is not a criticism of you at all, but is a question I’ve wondered about as I talk with various Reformed folks:
Why, in most of the creeds/confessions, as well as in your original list above, is LOVE not addressed as one of the articles? I have a rather perverse sense of humor, and have on occasion baited other believers by bringing up the fact that God is Love - and knowing that their next words are going to be - “Yes, He is, BUT,” and then an excursis on sovereignty, and thence to fear of some sort, almost always follow the “but.” Have you noticed that?
Sovereignty is always primary? Why is it that many people believe that? Why not say that Love is primary? Or ‘sovereign love’ or something like that? Someone has pointed out that, of all the many scriptural evidences that Calvin presents in his Institutes, one verse he does not even mention is: God is Love 1 Jn 4.8.
Now I don’t doubt that Calvin believed that verse; it’s just that Power triumphs Love in the arena of creedal presentation. That seems backwards to me.
Isn’t LOVE what the whole show is all about?? Doesn’t everything flow from that - justice, power, - everything?
Yes, but…
Well said.
The men who developed creeds were not heavily invested in love. They were too busy codifying, organizing and positioning themselves over the people of God through dogma and ecclesiastic hierarchy- to pay much attention to the primacy of love 
I think there’s a lot to say in favor of your statement.
Good point about the love of God. My apologies for that. I copied the statement from another starting point and over-looked that.
The ‘all’ in #7 is exactly my meaning. I understand that ALL mankind, every individual human being, was justified at the cross. Faith does not cause of justification, but instead receives our justification.
I thought ‘The Ages of The Ages’ is cumbersome also in #12. However, that is the most that the Scriptures say and so in the effort to build a statement that more could agree with perhaps that is best.
While agree with clarification of #12 making it explicit that all humans are saved on the right and fallen angels damned on the left, I personally think that the Scripture intentionally allow the unbeliever to fear that they are damned along with the fallen angels as long as they continue to reject their election. Since the Scriptures are worded to allow for this fear, it seems a statement of faith should allow for it as well.
In one true God, existing eternally as one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, John 14:9-21, who is in essence spirit, John 4:24, light, 1 John 1:5, and love, 1 John 4:8.
That the Old and New Testaments are the unique, inerrant, inspired Word of God in the original autographs, and the final authority in all matters of faith and conduct, 2 Tim 3:16.
In the sovereignty and active rule of God in creation, the fall, history, revelation, redemption, and final judgment, Romans 8:20-21.
That man was created by God in His image, but that since Adam’s fall, all men are sinful and by nature objects deserving of God’s wrath, Ephesians 2:3.
That Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, fully human and fully divine, eternally existing as God, yet born in time of a virgin, and that He lived a sinless and perfect life, 2 Timothy 2:5.
In the historic death of Jesus as the full and only atonement, guaranteeing loving forgiveness for the sins of all mankind, in His bodily resurrection from the dead, and in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, 1 John 2:1-2.
That all mankind is justified by the loving grace of God and redeemed on the basis of the death of Christ alone, which is received through faith alone, Ephesians 2:8-9.
That the Holy Spirit is the effective agent in regeneration, bringing individuals to faith and transformed lives, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
In one invisible, universal church, the Body of Christ, to which all true believers belong, and in local churches accountable to God, governed by officers with the authority to rule in matters of belief and discipline, Hebrews 13:17.
That believing mankind is rewarded in paradise after death, while unbelievers suffer punishment in Hades after death merited by their sinful nature and their rejection of the grace of Christ, Luke 16:19-31.
In the future, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory. Titus 2:13.
In the final resurrection of redeemed mankind to the enjoyment of God forever, and the damnation of those excluded from the Book of Life to the Lake of Fire prepared for the Devil and his angels for The Ages of The Ages, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 20:10.
I think it stops short. Just off the cuff…
13 That every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Chist is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:9-11, John 12:32)
14 That every adversary, thus subjected, will be gathered into one in Christ and that God will, at the conclusion of the ages, have reconciled all through the blood of the cross and will have become all in all.(Eph 1:9-11; Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15)
15 That when the ages have are complete entire creation will have been restored, and death(including the second death/lake of fire) will be destroyed- all things being set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God(Rom 8:19-22; Rev 5:13; Rev 21:5; Acts 3:19-21)
I am somewhat familiar with Knoch’s work, but didn’t know Knoch believed this. Are you sure he started a movement based on that belief?
I, too, do not believe Spirit of God is distinct from the Father and the Son. Indeed, I believe the Spirit to be the extended Persons of the Father and the Son. Jesus said to his disciples that He and his Father would come and make their dwelling with them. How would the Father and the Son do this? By extending their very Persons into the disciples. That extension is the Holy Spirit.
Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 3:17 that the Lord [Jesus] IS the Spirit.
In his work, “Dialogue with Trypho,” Justin Martyr indicated that he debated with a group of Jews led by Trypho—a debate which lasted several days.
Both Justin and Trypho made reference to the Holy Spirit many times. Now certainly Trypho did not believe the Spirit to be a distinct divine Individual, since as a Jew, He believed in only One divine Person—Yahweh. But what did Justin believe about at?
Most of the discussion stemmed from Justin’s attempt to show them from the Hebrew scriptures that Jesus is the Messiah, is divine, and can be called “God.” Then at one point in chapter 68, Justin asks Trypho, “Do you think that any other one is said to be worthy of worship and called “Lord” and “God” in the scriptures, except the Maker of all, and Messiah, who by so many scriptures was proved to you to have become man?”
To which Trypho replied, "How can we admit this, when we have instituted so great an inquiry as to whether there is any other than the Father alone?
Now if Justin had been an Trinitarian, this would have been the perfect occasion to have introduced the Holy Spirit as a third Person of the Trinity.
But instead, Justin replied, “I must ask you this also, that I may know whether or not you are of a different opinion from that which you admitted some time ago.”
So it seems that Justin didn’t believe in the Spirit as a third divine Individual either.
Indeed, Justin referred to the Spirit of prophecy speaking from the Person of Christ (chapter38) and also of prophets speaking from the Person of the Father (chapter 37) but never “speaking from the Person of the Spirit.”
I also don’t believe the HS is a person. The scripture used to support it is weak, in my opinion. I am with Paidon on his reply, again in this matter.
Jesus being “the fulness of the deity in bodily form” is God and substance of God then, but the Spirit which is God’s very substance and the active agency in the formation of and indwelling of Christ is neither the Person of God or the Person of Christ but the union of their persons. I have thought of this also in the couple of instances where angels spoke in the first person voice of God and speaking first person in the prophets “for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
God “broke off” a piece of Himself and planted it in the womb of mary. Then when the Holy Spirit came upon Him in the water’s of baptism He was filled with the Spirit of God, then when He ascended He received the Spirit without measure… meaning I guess that the absolute unity of the Father and the resurrected ascended Son is like the Lamp and the Light.
Almost a classic Bi-nitarian view altho I don’t like that term because it implies inherent equality between the Father and the Son, whereas I see the Sons equality and authority(and even being) as “bestowed” by the Father.
I dont claim to really know for sure at this point where all the nuances lead in terms of a “definition” or “term”(like trinity). I would hesitate to choose between any of them, so i wonder if the unity of the faith can be built around creedal definitions at all, but rather, as DaveB wrote, the actual experience of the Spirit in the dimension of “love sown in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given us”(Rom 5:5) might be the highest creed, or the foundational “creedal statement”. Then anyone who confesses(and means it) Jesus as Lord and believes God reaised Him from the dead… stands on the “holy ground” worthy of communion and fellowship in the house of God.
Unity could be built there.
I really appreciate your thought about the Spirit being “the union of their persons.” Indeed, I think that is usually the way it is now. But when the person of Christ was confined to his body while He was still a human being here on earth, the Spirit descended upon him during his baptism. In this case, it had to be the Spirit of the Father alone.
Also, in two instances in the New Testament, the Spirit of Jesus is identified:
Acts 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
Philippians 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance,
In that context I see the Spirit more like “living water”. If God is a Person it is His Spirit that permeates all persons(He is not far from any of us, for in Him we live and move and have our being)
So I have to ask myself, is there a "Spirit of Christ(“the Spirit of Christ was indicating to them”- Paul speaking of the prophets in the OT), a Spirit of God, a Holy Spirit and a Spirit of the Father? I dont think so(but i am open, still considering), The Spirit of the Father, YHWH, is the One Spirit(for God is spirit), He is the ocean to the seas, rivers, tributaries, raindrops, etc.
God is the “Father of lights” and the “Father of spirits”. God is Light and God is Spirit. His spirit is the active manifestation of the infinite reservoir of God’s being, from which all beings are created(“God breathed the spirit into the man and he became a living soul”, 'who makes his angels winds and his ministers flames of fire"). He is the Light, He is refracted through beings. The Spirit of Christ being a refraction(the greatest single source of light). “The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.”
God outside the Lamp is the Spirit of God, God shining out of the Lamp, the Spirit of Christ. God(who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.) shines(becomes visible) through the Lamp(For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,) so that the I AM- who God is becomes more visible( He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power) and indeed, by sharing blood(family, inheritance) “connects” us, body, vine, spirit and nature.
…but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel…
We dont know what we will be, but in the ALL IN ALL our spirits will all be in union, harmony, individual but also in union, mingled together- God will be “over all in all and through all”. Thats how I think it is with Messiah and YHWH.
As I see it presently when the Spirit came on Jesus at His baptism, He was given a very powerful firehose, like the “double portion”(first borns share) of the Spirit with Elisha. When He ascended, He became the fountainhead, “The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.” “Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.”
I believe the Father, YHWH, breaks off a piece of Himself for every being He creates. His spirit coalesces into something out of His creativity and purpose. I believe Jesus coaleced within the spirit of YHWH as the first thought(LOGOS) in the process of creation- but all these terms are fuzzy(first, second etc) because in eternity we cannot see how the lines are drawn…
That whole creation process in Genesis. The earth was without form and void and the Spirit was moving over the waters.
Waters separated from waters. Then dry land appears. This is the creative existential nature of God- and I think our western bricklap mentality makes it difficult for us to see it. We like lines and distinctions, God like harmonius blends, fusion and mingling, light refracted and distinct yet the exact division in the gradient unfathomable, impossible to delineate, perfectly integrated and alive with motion.
For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
“Light shining out of darkness”(2 Cor 4) is another way of saying “invisible, unseeable, unfathomable, unreachable”- becoming - “visible, seeable, comprehensible, touchable”. Gradient levels of the One Spirit being Father, Son, the Body, mankind, angels(altho for now man is little lower than the angels, Hebrews 2)
We find perspectives, and traits and we try to outline them and box em up 
) I think in the case of Deity we need a more mystical mind-set.