The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Would amillennialism falsify UR?

Theology Biblical Theology
#23

Isaiah 25, Isaiah 27 and Isaiah 65 have references that for me co-ordinate with 2 peter 3 concerning the new heavens and the new earth. There are words like, “the former things will not be remembered”, “I will remove the veil that covers all the people” “In that Day i will slay Leviathan with the sword of my mouth, in that Day, sing of it- a vineyard.”

For me these things are just not in evidence. Cruelty, murder, perversion, injustice, oppression, faithlessness are getting worse, i think, a black hole begging for the second advent.

No world wide attack on Christians or Jews since Christ?

I dont know what world-wide has to do with it but millions of Christians and Jews have been killed just in the last hundred years.

One interesting point is that 2 Peter 3 is translated very poorly in most translations.

Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed(4921 synestōsa-composed) out of water and by water, 6 through which the world(kosmos) at that time was destroyed(622apoleto-perished), being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction(apoleias684) of ungodly men.

The world itself was not utterly destroyed. The world system that was in place was ruined by the flood, but the earth endured, and the remnant carried the seed of life into a new world- on the same earth, but nevertheless “a new heavens and a new earth” for them. The fire that this present age is reserved for will produce a new heavens and a new earth “wherein dwells righteousness”. As we kno,this is because, “he must reign until every adversary is subjected”. The rebellion of men will be destroyed in the fire of God’s light and they will be “ruined”, “subjected”, “gathered” and “restored”. The last enemy to be “destroyed” is death.

8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing(boulomenos- resolute will…not willing) for any to perish(622 apoleto) but for all to come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythēsetai-loosed, released) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(2147 heurethēsetai-exposed).

2 Peter 3:10 is the only place in the whole Bible in any version that lythesai is translated “destroy”.
Everywhere else it is translated loosed, released, dissolved. Heurethesetai is “exposed”. IN 175 OUT OF 176 other occurences, heurethesetai is translated “was found to be”, or “will find”. Nowhere is it, “burned up” and that meaning is nowhere in the word. Apollumi is “lost” or “ruined” or “perdition”. it does not make sense in all its occurences as “destroyed”.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenōn-dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(lythēsontai-dissolved, loosed) by burning(being on fire will be dissolved(ouranoi pyroumenoi lythēsontai), and the elements(stoicheon) will melt(teketai) with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

IMO, The “elements” here spoken of are the “principalities and powers of this present world age”. In Hebrews 5 Paul says that by now we ought to have moved beyond the “elementary principles” of the oracles of God. In Gal 4 he warns believers about returning to the weak and beggarly elements(stoichea). in Colssians 2 Paul warns again, “If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the world(kosmos), why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

Peter and Paul used the same words to describe what is being “dissolved” “anulled” and “exposed”- what is “perishing”.

the stoicheon of this kosmos.

Peter sees this as creating a “new heavens and a new earth”. Jesus says through John “Behold(see, understand) I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW”

Paul describes it in 1 Cor 15 as Jesus dissolving “all rule, power and authority” which I think co-ordinates with the “elementary principles”.

In other words God has been dissolving ages and dispensations as He births new revelations that make the old obsolete.

Rolling back the heavens like a scroll, so to speak.

Thats why one thing I do like about the preterist view is they tend to see the second coming of Christ as a growing epiphany over the world, and I think that element is the core element of His return, where fundamentalists focus on dates and the physical manifestation.

I just dont think it could be invisible enough to justify the amillenial view. The last thousand years have been a bloodbath.

#24

According to the amillennialist view, aren’t there only two ages–the present Church age (interpreted as a spiritual millennium), and the future unending age?

Yes Jesus returns on the last day and the eternal age starts but that doesn’t mean activity comes to a halt. I know of no reason why folks can’t go through the lake of fire and then cross over into New Jerusalem where the gates are open day and night.

#25

I was just brain storming on possibilities for the meaning of Satan being bound, even though Peter warns that he prowls around like a lion. Some say that the cross of Christ bound him, but that really does not make sense because then what would it mean that he is later released? Certainly the cross of Christ is not reversed! Could it be that Satan is restricted from rallying all the nations against God’s people? So Satan or his demons can presently work limited deception, but they cannot rally the all the nations, Revelation 20:3,8? That is one idea I’ve had. What do you say?

I understand many NT prophecies to be preteristic statements. But are you saying that you do not believe in a physical return of Christ yet future?

I don’t understand this statement? What do you mean here?

I know most UR understanding suggests that unbelieving mankind spends time in the LOF. However, I think 1 Cor 15 is pointing to the end of death and Hades for mankind. I believe all mankind’s glorification and the removal of our fallen state begins at Rev 21:1. The LOF is then prepared for the damnation of the Satan and his angels, Matt 25:41. It is a different thought than many UR understandings, but don’t dismiss the idea too quickly.

Again I’ve held the non-dispensational pre-millennial view and I trying to consider the amillennial view. Questions I am researching are…

  1. What does Satan’s binding and then releasing mean? For example Satan’s binding cannot be the finished work of the cross, because then what would his releasing mean?

  2. Does the NT use ‘this age’, ‘age to come’, ‘ages to come’ requiring a future millenium for a UR understanding?

  3. What are the pros and cons of understanding the first resurrection in Rev 20:4 to be a spiritual resurrection? For example the first resurrection cannot refer to the salvation of the martyred saints because they were already Christians when they were martyred.

Okay good discussion, thanks for any other thoughts.

#26

Could it be that Satan is restricted from rallying all the nations against God’s people? So Satan or his demons can presently work limited deception, but they cannot rally the all the nations, Revelation 20:3,8? That is one idea I’ve had

Yes doesn’t it say Satan is bound so as to not deceive the nations?

#27

Thats why one thing I do like about the preterist view is they tend to see the second coming of Christ as a growing epiphany over the world, and I think that element is the core element of His return, where fundamentalists focus on dates and the physical manifestation.

All that I have ever heard about the Full Preterist view is that Jesus returned in 70AD, isn’t what you are describing the Post Mill view?

#28

Pre-mill dispensationalism anticipates Christ’s return to restore a literal 1,000 years with a revived Old Covenant Temple and Sacrifice.
Pre-mill non-dispensational anticipates Christ’s return to reign physically on the earth during a future 1,000 years under the New Covenant.
A-mill understands the 1,000 to be a figurative time span between the 1st and 2nd physical advent of Christ, the church age.
Post-mill-already understands that the 1,000 years ended at the Great Schism while we wait for Christ’s physical return.
Post-mill-not-yet understands that the 1,000 years will be ushered in the future with gospel victory and then Christ returns physically.
Variations of all the above allow for both a coming in judgment in 70AD as well as a physical second advent in the future.
Full-preterism sees the 2nd coming of Christ as fulfilled judgment in 70ad, so the ‘chilia etos’ was the span until 70ad, all prophecy fulfilled.

These views are on a continuum of interpretation from literalistic to symbolic
and a continuum from OT promises not yet realized to NT promises already realized.

#29

For pro amillennial thoughts someone pointed out to me that Rev 20:1-6 actually doesn’t say anything about peace, but only that Satan is restricted from deceiving the nations. That could describe this time period in that Satan’s devils are still on the loose and there has been no world wide attack on either Christians or Jews since Christ. I know many point to OT passages that speak of the restoration of all things, but Isaiah 65 speaks of the New Heavens and Earth and the 1,000 years is before that.

You might consider that when the NT writers talk about the second coming like 2nd Peter 3 or John mentioning the last day several times or Paul they don’t seem to leave room for any millenium period.

#30

Is that last day a reference to the end of the church age or the Jewish age?
Also I added this line above “Variations include both a coming in judgment in 70AD as well as a physical second advent in the future.”

#31

I believe in the physical return of Christ, but the scripture uses the word “epiphanea” to describe it, among others like erchomai, and that refers to the physical aspect of His coming, and parousia which refers to His presence filling the earth. Ephiphanea, imo, has to do with a universal tearing of the veil between the unseen realm and the seen, that will cause His coming to be a spiritual event having an effect upon the consciousness of all people, something much more that just this great “super governor” showing up to rule upon earth.

There are prophecies concerning the effect- the actual physical and spiritual effects of the epiphanea of Christ, also called in Greek the parousia, in humanity and in the earth, that are clearly not in evidence in the earth today or in history. The second advent has not occurred because the changes that accompany it in the scriptures have not occurred. It wont be done in a corner, it will be as the lightning flashing across the entire horizon, from east to west. The awareness of it will be world wide and world/age transforming, like the flood, like the Exodus- it will totally change the landscape and directly affect the foundations of the earth. Personally, I see this clearly in the prophecies of both the old and new testaments.

#32

Personally, I’m not overly interested in eschatology. Seems to me to be a lot of speculation with particular scriptures to support the various views.
For the record, I am a historic premillenialist, as were most Christians in the first two centuries. However, I have no intentions of defending this view.

#33

I am not overly interested in it either, but I am interested in it. As you said… lots of speculation involved. I am also a historic premillenialist, but the one thing about eschatology that gives me great joy is that it all will be as it will be when it will be no matter what we speculate :slight_smile:

#34

From the fulfilled perspective… “the Jewish age”. The gospel was about being free from the “elements” of the old covenant mode of existence. All that made up these “elements” – Law, Temple, Priesthood, Sacrifice etc were all “burned up” in the conflagrations of AD70… as Jesus foretold. Such is fulfilled.

That properly describes “partial prêterism” – most but not all full prêterist come via the “partial” route. I came that way and have moved beyond it. I came to prêterism having been brought up as an amillennialist.

Credibility would be helped if you provide actual quotes of these clear prophecies speaking to actual physical world-wide effects to the globe and humanity.

The redemption of Israel and reconciliation of humanity was “done in a corner”, outside Jerusalem, and yet the bulk of humanity then like it has been since has been totally unaware of it.

#35

You might consider that when the NT writers talk about the second coming like 2nd Peter 3 or John mentioning the last day several times or Paul they don’t seem to leave room for any millenium period.

Is that last day a reference to the end of the church age or the Jewish age?
Also I added this line above “Variations include both a coming in judgment in 70AD as well as a physical second advent in the future.”

IMHO the church age. Probably the Old Covenant was over at Jesus death and since Herod’s temple was not God ordained I don’t know why it’s destruction seems so important. Yes Jesus prophesied it’s destruction and it was done but it’s not a central event in Christianity. The process of it’s destruction was a slow march and encirclement and starvation by the Romans but the descriptions of Christ’s second coming are sudden and a worldwide event which include a physical return and a resurrection of the dead on the last day.

#36

Just curious how full preterists understand Revelation 20:9? Is the first half of the verse Rome destroying Jerusalem and the second half God destroying Rome in the 4th century?

#37

I modified my earlier list as follows…

Pre-mill dispensationalism anticipates physical Christ’s return to restore a literal 1,000 years with a revived Old Covenant Temple and Sacrifice.
Pre-mill non-dispensational anticipates physical Christ’s return to reign on the earth during a future 1,000 years under the New Covenant.
A-mill understands the 1,000 to be a figurative time span between the 1st and 2nd physical advents of Christ, the church age.
Post-mill-not-yet understands that the 1,000 years will be ushered in the future with gospel victory and then Christ’s physical return.
Post-mill-already understands that the 1,000 years ended at the Great Schism while we wait for Christ’s physical return.
Variations of all the above allow for preteristic prophecy such as Christ coming in judgment in 70AD and a physical 2nd advent in our future.
Full-preterism sees the 2nd advent of Christ as fulfilled judgment in 70ad, so the ‘chilia etos’ was the span until 70ad, all prophecy is fulfilled.

These views each make use of a range of interpretative models from literalistic to symbolic.
These views are also listed on a continuum from OT promises not yet realized to NT promises completely realized.

#39

qaz, good point. I edited my above post to reflect that.

#40

In terms of any redemptive value yes… BUT, the OC remained very much in vogue in the life and practice of Israel, even to the point where reversion to it in terms of supposed salvation became a problem Paul railed against in the early church, i.e., the Judaisers. We know from the writer to the Hebrews this…

Even Paul himself acquiesced to certain requirements of law observance, as did many believers as even a cursory reading of Acts shows…

AD30 ring-barked the old covenant… AD70 pushed it over…

It was in this 40yr transitional period from “this age” into “the age to come” where that which was “becoming obsolete” and “growing old” was “ready to vanish away” – notice all the then present tense. And we have HISTORY that shows this to be true – that evangelicalism has for the most part missed and consequently messed is evidenced by the carnage of prophetic confusion left in its wake.

It was important hence Jesus’ prophecies against it… BECAUSE while the Temple still stood the new covenant was not yet complete, as per the testimony of Heb 9:8-9 above.

#41

I did in earlier posts, but will gladly do so again. Also the Greek words refering to Christ’s returns give some credibility as well.

Rev 11:2I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Rev 20;15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18 And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to [k]reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Isaiah 24
The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day,
That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
22 They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the Lord of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
And His glory will be before His elders.

Isaiah 25
The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces,
**And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the Lord has spoken.
**

Isaiah 27
In that day the Lord will punish [a]Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
“A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 “I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I water it every moment.
So that no one will [d]damage it,
I guard it night and day.
4 “I have no wrath.
Should someone give Me briars and thorns in battle,
Then I would step on them, I would burn them completely.
5 “Or let him rely on My protection,
Let him make peace with Me,
Let him make peace with Me.”
6 In the days to come Jacob will take root,
Israel will blossom and sprout,
And they will fill the whole world with fruit.

Is 2:3
And many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths.” For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Micah 4
And it will come about in the last days
That the mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,
“Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 And He will judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, distant nations.
Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they train for war.
4 Each of them will sit under his vine
And under his fig tree,
With no one to make them afraid,
For the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken.

Rev 20
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of **their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection

1 Cor 15
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does [p]the perishable inherit [q]the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 John 3
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Rev 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen

Zechariah 14

In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.

Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.**

#42

On that level it continues to this day.

#43

I am not hung up on the thousand year reign, but in 2 Peter 3 I see Peter as painting broad strokes of “the period of the restoration of all things” which he proclaimed in Acts 3. That period, imo, equates to Pauls “administration suitable to the fulness of times” and "ages to come(Eph 2:7)- covering several ages to come after this one, until God is all in all and all rule power and authority have been done away and the elementary principle(stoicheon) of earth dissolved by the brightness of His appearing.

So in my opinion the millenial reign is not excluded from Peters view in 2 Peter 3.

I do see the millenial reign, but not as clealry defined as some. I believe there is a lot of overlap, much as a preterist sees from 30AD to 70AD. In Daniel 7

9“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.

  10“A river of fire was flowing
        And coming out from before Him;
        Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
        And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
        The court sat,
        And the books were opened.

11“Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12“As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

Beasts representing the imperialistic nations/empires, I think that they are allowed to continue through at least some of the millenial age, which is a transition, and an opportunity for the Lord to fulfill the promises of Israel.

The lion will lay down with the Lamb, but He will also rule with a rod of iron, because there will still be adversaries.