Well, wallowing was my description. Look, letâs ask if you are at least interested in the idea that maybe God may have did what He wanted to do in the history of the NT, at the time of the destruction of the second temple?
God can do whatever He pleases: certainly He could have done that. Am I interested in that speculation? I have been interested enough to do some reading - not light reading either - and I recognize some strength in your position as I understand it. I do feel though, with all respect, that a number of the things I have read have not been fruitful (again with the fruit?) but have been forced upon the text.
For me, the most natural way to understand the âarcâ of the biblical story is in terms of Paulâs writings, especially now in Romans , and the overall sense of what Wright was writing about in that essay. And Channingâs approach. And MacDonald. Etc.
And here I raise mine Ebenezer!! Outside the Evangelical tent, put there by their definition, not mine, nor scriptureâs ; creedal up to the Apostleâs creed only; non-Trin by necessity but not thereby less Christian, I trust, though I have been thusly accused; and overall pretty danged happy most days.
Hey, we have to make our choices.
Dave, what definition is that? Here are Websterâs first three definitions:
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evangelical
According to the book âThe Evangelical Universalistâ, which mirrors the name of this website, for Evangelical Universalists a âmotivation to proclaim Christ that [Calvinist] Packer lacks - [is] to ensure that as few people go to hell as possibleâ (p.169, 2nd ed).
Related to the topic of âhellâ is the question i asked in the OP, âWhat is the Gospel & a Christianâ? Are people such as the following headed for âhellâ even if they profess to be Christians & believe the gospel of grace:
1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.(Berean Literal Bible)
Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, contentions, dissensions, factions, 21 envyings, drunkennesses, carousing, and things like these, as to which I forewarn you, even as I warned before, that those doing such things will not inherit Godâs kingdom.
Revelation 21:8
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 22:15
But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I have a problem with anybody that makes you pay a ton of money to listen to their sermons
I do too. And they âhavenât a clueâ - regarding marketing. You give stuff away, so that people will buy things. In this case, letâs look at TV evangelists. Or any mainline Christian churches, that have sermons online. They are free to listen to. They are giving this stuff away. WHY? If itâs a brick and mortar church, you will go visit them. If itâs a TV evangelist, you will donate to their ministry, buy their books and CDs, etc.
So the first lesson of marketing. You give away content, so folks will see you - as a subject matter expert. Then they will be more open, to buy things - you have to offer.
Since Origen brought up evangelical, hereâs what I just shared - in another thread here.
The Calvinist site Got Questions, has the following Q and A:
What is an Evangelical Christian?
Well, according to the definition in paragraph 1âŚthis would NOT only cover the major Protestant denominations, non-denominational, Bible and community churchesâŚBut Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy - as well.
.Hereâs an example of a âgood marketerâ , but a âlousy gospel representativeâ.
But read these articles first, folks!
Scam Everlasting: After 25 Years, Debunked Faith Healer Still Preaching Debt Relief Scam
Peter Popoff - Wiki
Hereâs a question. If you DON"T send Popoff a check - for his miraclesâŚDoes he send this guy, to collect the debt
Origen: #2 - protestant
One definition:
Protestants âŚadhere to the Nicene Creed believe in three persons (God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit) as one God.
Movements emerging around the time of the Protestant Reformation, but not a part of Protestantism, e.g. Unitarianism also reject the Trinity. This often serves as a reason for exclusion of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, Unitarian Universalism, Oneness Pentecostalism and other movements from Protestantism by observers. " -Wiki
Iâve used the term âcode wordsâ previously - religious terms are often code for âwhat we in the group believe to be trueâ - terms like âbelieverâ âsavedâ âevangelicalâ - mean different things to different groups, and serve as a method of exclusion. A dictionary is not often definitive (pun intended).
Well first of all, thanks for the recognition of maybe possible. I also think Paul has a bridge between many different views. I also agree that much of what I have spewed out to you has little validity in organized religion. That is the curse that I have to unfortunately live with.
Look, I appreciate Channing and Mac Donald, but am at a different place. But you are where you are. And I can and do appreciate it.
For what it is worth, I had a new Granddaughter born today. life is good. Yes we make our choices. I appreciate and see your view as not only valid but something I think about. And I do think about them. Thanks Bro.
CONGRATULATIONS!!! Happy news indeed!!
And what is the wee lassâs name?
Well congrats to you Chad I became a grandfather myself for the first time 9wks ago⌠a cute little grandson. Life sure is good!
Yep. Name is Klaira, cool that I got to see her tonight. Looks just like her mother.
Well, hold on to your hat I now have 6 grandchildren and the ride is fun and wild.
Thanks David.
CONGRATULATIONS!!! Happy news indeed!!
And what is the wee lassâs name?
Thanks Dave, her name is Klaira, and she is a gem.
She wouldnât be cute too, though , right?
She wouldnât be cute too, though , right?
Does not take after grandpa.
Thanks guysâŚ
You are indeed friends.
Love you all.
A Condensation of âSalvation from Sinâ
Which is Chapter 1 of The Hope of the Gospel
by George MacDonald
The wrong, the evil that is in a man; he must be set free from it. I do not mean set free from the sins he has done: that will follow; I mean the sins he is doing, or is capable of doing; the sins in his being which spoil his nature, the wrongness in him, the evil he consents to; the sin he is, which makes him do the sin he does.
He will want only to be rid of his suffering; but that he cannot have, unless he is delivered from its essential root, a thing infinitely worse than any suffering it can produce. If he will not have that deliverance, he must keep his suffering. Through chastisement he will take at last the only way that leads to liberty. There can be no deliverance but to come out of his evil dream into the glory of God.
The Lord never came to deliver men from the consequences of their sins while those sins remained. That would be to throw the medicine out the window while the man still lies sick! That would be to come directly against the very laws of existence! Yet men, loving their sins, and feeling nothing of their dread hatefulness, have (consistently with their low condition) constantly taken this word concerning the Lord to mean that he came to save them from the punishment of their sins. This idea (this miserable fancy rather) has terribly corrupted the preaching of the gospel. The message of the good news has not been truly delivered.
He came to work along with our punishment. He came to side with it, and set us free from our sins. No man is safe from hell until he is free from his sins.
Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them does he need to fear remaining unforgiven. The sin in which he dwells, the sin of which he will not come out. That sin is the sole ruin of a man. His present live sins, those sins pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, but to which he clings instead, the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it â these are the sins for which he is even now condemned.
It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, from which we need to be delivered. If a man will not strive against this badness, he is left to commit evil and reap the consequences. To be saved from these consequences, would be no deliverance; it would be an immediate, ever deepening damnation. It is the evil in our being (no essential part of it, thank God!) from which He came to deliver us â not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things anymore.
As this possibility departs, and we confess to those we have wronged, the power over us of our evil deeds will depart also, and so shall we be saved from them. The bad that lives in us, our evil judgments, our unjust desires, our hate and pride and envy and greed and self-satisfaction ---- these are the souls of our sins, our live sins, more terrible than the bodies of our sins, that is, the deeds we do, because they not only produce these loathsome characteristics, but they make us just as loathsome. Our wrong deeds are our dead works; our evil thoughts are our live sins. These sins, the essential opposites of faith and love, these sins that dwell in us and work in us, are the sins from which Jesus came to deliver us. When we turn against them and refuse to obey them, they rise in fierce insistence, but at the same time begin to die. We are then on the Lordâs side, and He begins to deliver us from them.From such, as from all other sins, Jesus was born to deliver us; not only, or even primarily, from the punishment of any of them. When all are gone, the holy punishment will have departed also. He came to make us good, and therein blessed children.
Evil is not human; it is the defect and opposite of human; but the suffering that follows it is human, belonging of necessity to the human that has sinned. While evil is the cause of sin, suffering is FOR the sinner, that he may be delivered from his sin.
A man may recognize the evil in him only as pain. He may know little and care nothing about his sins. Yet the Lord is sorry for his pain. He cries aloud, âCome to me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.â He opens His arms to all weary enough to come to Him in the hope of rest.
I certainly do not disregard understanding. The New Testament is full of urgings to understand. Our whole life must be a growth in understanding. But I cry out about the misunderstanding that comes of manâs endeavour to understand while not obeying. Upon obedience our energy must be spent; understanding will follow. The Lord cannot save a man from his sins while he still holds to his sins.
If a man wants to be delivered from the evil in him, he must himself begin to cast it out, himself begin to disobey it, and work righteousness, and the man should look for and expect the help of his Father in this endeavour. Alone he could labour to all eternity and not succeed. He who has not made himself, cannot set himself right without Him who made him. But his maker is in him, and is his strength.
The sum of the matter is this: âThe Son has come from the Father to set the children free from their sins. The children must hear and obey Him, that He may send forth judgment unto victory.
Wow! That was good, Don (and even the more because Iâve read it before). Thanks so much for posting it!
Yes, that is the best possible news, and the medicine, the strong medicine, the world desperately needs. And me 2.