The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Should you marry someone who believes in ECT?

I don’t think there’s any one answer to this question. In your case, Lady, it sounds like it would be a bad idea. For others it might be fine. It all depends on the people and the circumstances. I can’t imagine you falling in love with someone who believes in ECT. :wink:

Sonia

thank you for your replies again;

I didn’t mean to be picky -looking. I mean, I imagine myself having to keep so many things inside…I mean with you guys I can say that I hope I can see my dad again or my other late loved ones who may have gone astray, and I’ll receive honest comfort from you. The ECTers may offer their comfort but for them to not be on the same page as me, that is just way too much pain, my chest literally feels heavy typing this…and I’m sounding like a broken record too.

Hi Lady Bug -

I think only really extreme hard ECT believers would conclude that your Dad is in hell (I was just worried you might know some of them and the advice is - if you need it - avoid them :wink: ) Others who ’ believe’ in ECT in some sense (perhaps notional) would be genuine in their offers of comfort, really genuine. People’s humanity kicks in in all but the most extreme cases when comforting the bereaved is concerned and they do suspend judgement and live in hope for the departed - especially if they have known them and loved them. Life just is not clear cut.

Sonia is absolutely right however - I can’t imagine you falling in love with someone who believes in ECT. There’s plenty of pebbles on the beach and a lot of those don’t believe in ECT :wink: I’ve never been out with a woman who believes in ECT - and it was something I used to fear when I was younger certainly (and when I was afraid I was always confronting people with ECT beliefs rather than just muddling along with them as I do today - I no longer feel I have to live in a perfect world). I guess it’s hard to believe that there is a big non ECT world outside when you’ve felt the ECT parallel world as a prison. But my experience suggest there is such a world to breathe easy in.

Ladybug,

I think it’s okay to receive the comfort of those who love you and care about you, even if secretly they feel even worse for you because they “know” your dad is probably not in a better place . . . in my experience people tend to be a LOT more compassionate themselves than they imagine God to be.

BUT, having lived through my own dad’s going home (and other beloved ones as well), I can tell you that there’s not much point in looking forward to and worrying about bereavement. In fact, there’s not much point in looking forward to and worrying about much of anything. Mostly things work out a LOT differently than we expect them to. I had so much agony when I was younger, worrying about things that have never happened. OTHER things happened that I never imagined would happen. I’m glad I didn’t know about them in advance because it would have ruined a lot of good times and given me unnecessary grief in worrying over the bad things that were going to happen.

You just don’t know what’s around the corner. Almost none of the things I’ve worried about have ever happened (or at least they haven’t happened in the catastrophic ways I anticipated them). So there I was, in anticipatory pain over a bunch of stuff I never needed to worry about, and in actual pain over a bunch of stuff I never saw coming. No way I could avoid the latter, but I sure didn’t need to agonize over the former in addition.

Take Jesus’ advice; don’t worry about anything, but instead pray about everything. Our guide and elder Brother will lead you through fire and water and anything else that stands in the way of your journey home, and He will lead you there safely. Nothing can touch you but those things Father allows – and He only allows things that will ultimately do you lasting good (even though some of them will hurt). You are in the hands of love and perfect love casts out all fear. Trust in Father’s perfect love for you and He will get you through all those hard spots. Storms will come, but the house that’s built on the rock will stand. All other houses NEED to fall, for they are nothing but prisons masquerading as shelters.

Love, Cindy

I’m a little late on commenting here, but I just wanted to add that I’ve thought about this many, many times. I simply can’t imagine myself saying “til death do us part” to a man who believes in ECT, and I’ve avoided some otherwise wonderful guys due to this uneasiness.

On the other hand, I do really wish to marry a man who shares my belief in Christ as Messiah, the truth of the Gospel, and other mainstream Christian doctrines. Finding a twenty-something, non-ECT Christian man (much less one who is kind and shares interests with me!) is much easier said than done!

Sometimes, I toy with the idea of joining a convent and just living out my Universalist tendencies in peaceful singleness – but then I remember that Catholics are ECT, too!

Ladybug, I will be praying for strength and peace for you, your father, and the rest of your family. I thought I’d share with you some words by Max Lucado, which you may have read before. Nonetheless, they gave me such comfort when I read his *Travelling Light *as an angst-ridden twelve-year-old who knew nothing but ECT. Although Lucado is a mainstream Christian writer/pastor and believes in traditional hell, I found these words immensely comforting (and I still do!)

*What of those who die with no faith? My husband never prayed. My grandpa never worshiped. My mother never opened a Bible, much less her heart. What about the one who never believed?

How do we know he didn’t?

Who among us is privy to a person’s final thoughts? Who among us knows what transpires in those final moments? Are you sure no prayer was offered? Eternity can bend the proudest knees. Could a person stare into the yawning canyon of death without whispering a plea for mercy? And could our God, who is partial to the humble, resist it?

He couldn’t on Calvary. The confession of the thief on the cross was both a first and final one. But Christ heard it. Christ received it. Maybe you never heard your loved one confess Christ, but who’s to say Christ didn’t?

We don’t know the thoughts of a dying soul, but we know this. We know our God is a good God. He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

He wants your loved one in heaven more than you do. And he usually gets what he wants.*

Prayers and blessings to you, Ladybug,

Kate

P.S. If anybody does know of any nice, twenty-something Christian Universalist boys out there… you all know where to find me. Just sayin’. :blush:

Kate,

You might find someone on ChristianMingle. :slight_smile:

Alternately, Eastern Orthodoxy also has nunneries; and not only are the RCC leaders slowly moving in the direction of UR, but they allow their nuns a lot of leeway in this regard, especially those who follow St. Therese of Lisieux or St. Faustina of Poland (who herself followed St. Therese). The Divine Mercy movement spearheaded by St. Faustina has been steadily growing and enjoys a lot of papal support.

Hi Kate

I was intrigued, and just a little saddened, to read that you have “avoided some otherwise wonderful guys due to [their belief in ECT]”. The reason being that pretty much all of us guys here (if I can speak for all of us guys :smiley: ) used to believed in ECT. ECT is the controlling belief in the modern church. Hence young men who have grown up in Christian families are almost bound to believe in ECT; and atheists or agnostics who convert are almost bound to convert to ECT Christianity. So your ‘pool’ of potential partners is, for you as a young person, pretty darn small :smiley: :frowning: .

But things can change!

If you and I and all the rest of us here have come to believe in the truth of UR, that means that anybody could do the same. And personally I am convinced that a) any Christian with an open mind and a good heart will have massive problems with ECT, and sooner or later (hopefully sooner :smiley: ) will come to reject that theology: and b) even those of us who, for whatever reason, are convinced that ECT is ordained by God, should, if they are truly led by the Spirit, be at worst tolerant of the UR position, and at best accepting of it as a legitimate view. (Although if you ask me anybody who doesn’t subscribe to UR is not letting themselves be guided by the Spirit.)

So I guess what I’m saying is that you shouldn’t worry about this particular issue. If your God-given emotions and instincts bring you together with a guy who reciprocates your feelings, who connects with you in every other way except ECT, then things will work themselves out.

Attraction - real, across the board, emotional and intellectual and sexual attraction - is the greatest and most mysterious lightning in this perplexing universe. And when it strikes, it strikes for a reason. I reckon.

All the best

Johnny

Hi Kate -

You should have a chat with our Jael Sister sometime - she’s had similar issues (although its not quite the same in the UK). She’s certainly tried Christian dating agencies - so she knows the score there. And she found her man in he end - and he’s a really lovely bloke. I’ll be seeing her the weekend after next - all being well. She’s my friend and Johnny’s friend and were your friends so if you fancy a chat with the warm hearted lass from Bristol we’ll touch base on that one somehow.

As your surrogate godfather I can only say that the monastic vocation has to be tested - and a lass of your age who is finding it difficult to meet an appropriate lad certainly needs to do a wee bit more sifting before jumping to conclusions. Whatever…

Rest you merry our lass

Dick :slight_smile:

Kate you need a girl to talk this stuff through with - that’s what I reckon. Jael is the nearest to your age and experience I know of on this site - so she’s a start. It is a shame that this site is virtual. IT would be really good to have the younglings of the field here having a get together across continents - because I know you are not the only one in this situation. However, a virtual community spread across the globe has its limits. Och well. And Johnny and I could join the reminiscence group for elderly veterans. And the young people from EU could come round once a month and serenade us in our bath chairs with Ramones songs (do you remember this one grandpa - ‘Oh Sheena is a punk rocker’ or was it 'prawn cracker?) :laughing:

I think I’ll hold off on the nunnery for now. :laughing: No worries, everyone!

Good point, Johnny. Perhaps it would be better to say that I could never date a “hardcore” believer in ECT, since most Christians have, indeed, grown up with it at one point or another. Sadly, there seems to be a rather strong population of just that “hardcore” sort around here, as I live in a very conservative, evangelical area. It is a bit discouraging, but I’m not too worried yet. (If there’s one thing I’ve got in the great matchmaking contest, it’s time! :smiley: )

And Dick, you well know that a friend of yours is a friend of mine, so I would enjoy talking with Jael, I’m sure.:slight_smile:

And come now, god-father, you’re not “elderly” just yet – you’ve got a few more years before you and Johnny will need a bath chair! :laughing:

If we wait to marry until we find someone who holds the same beliefs as us, we probably won’t get married (I say this as a 75 year old who has been married to a wonderful wife who died in 1997, and who is presently married to another wonderful wife).

I heard someone say, “Put together any 3 people, and you have 5 different opinions!”

Many Christians won’t fellowship with anyone who holds philosophical or theological beliefs which differ from their own. That’s the reason for the hundreds of denominations and sects in the world. But harmony in beliefs is not what unites us as disciples of Christ. What unites us is our discipleship. We serve the same wonderful Saviour! We have submitted our lives to Him.

If we see this, and can fellowship as disciples with those who hold beliefs contrary to our own, then surely we can also fellowship in marriage with a person who believes other than we. The family is one level of the Church. Surely the family can grow together. If disharmony in theological opinions persist, you can agree together concerning what you teach the children. If it’s an ET vs UR disageement, and you haven’t come to a mutually similar conclusion by the time you have children, you might decide together not to bring the matter up with the children unless they ask. And if they ask, each of you could give his/her opinion, without attempting to indoctrinate them. Explain to them that the two of you disagree, but together are seeking truth and reality. After all, most of us have held to false beliefs in the past, and have been enlightened concerning some of them.

If each person in a marriage serves the other, and does not try to have everything his/her way, then the marriage will be wonderful! Differences in belief should not be a factor which hinders the wonders of love!

This is true, Paidion. Very true and wise. And I know this issue shouldn’t bother me quite so much. Indeed, regarding most differences in theology, I don’t mind diverging opinions. ECT, however, seems like such a substantial thing to simply not mention to my future children, and it’s them I’d worry about most if I were to marry an ECT-believer.

With a Catholic father and an evangelical Protestant mother, I’m no stranger to household religious dissension. It was the confusion I felt after hearing their debate that initially prompted me to research different theologies and, in the process, discover some frightening ECT sites during grade school. I’d hate for my silence to lead my child down the same frightening road someday – and then to be married to a man who backed up the ECT teachers as undoubtedly correct! Any thoughts on this, everyone?

I’m good at projecting worrisome scenarios onto the future, as I am a professional worry-wort. :laughing: Sadly, this one seems legitimate to me, as I’ve seen firsthand how much a strongly-taught ECT doctrine can harm a child. :frowning: