The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Psychology and the Psalms

Studies Poetry
#61

Brilliant Dick and I like your use of the word “awe” for “fear”, certainly fits better if we understand the psalmist bubbling over with praise in this psalm :smiley: . I like to imagine him on top of a high hill or mountain singing these words with a loud voice to the heavens and all around the world at his feet. And then sitting back or even kneeling humbly in awe at the outpouring of his soul and thanking God for the inspiration to have been able to put it all into such wonderful and powerful verse.

Michael

#62

I just remembered the scripture that says there will be no more sorrow in heaven. The only way that could be is if everybody eventually made it there. The glory of heaven will be greater than the glory here on earth.

#63

Psalm 29

1 Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.

3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.

5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.

7 The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.

9 The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth
and strips the forests bare,
and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”

10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
11 May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!

God’s glory is the beautiful outshining of His manifold perfections. When revealed it can make one shake and tremble. It’s more like a sweet trembling for some. In Christ all opposites are held together. Love good, hate evil; justice, mercy; love, law. When we transcend the rational into faith we see that all opposites are held together in us. Even the rational and the heart. When all opposites are held together light shines. Christ is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. This is the mind of Christ. Worship isn’t only awe and wonder but obedience as well. We will worship what we value the most.

#64

Hey Cole that’s a wonderful Psalm -

I have a confession to make; I had to look up ‘ascribe’ to ascertain it’s meaning :blush: :laughing:

(ascribe something to)
1regard something as being due to (a cause):
‘he ascribed Jane’s short temper to her upset stomach’

So ‘Ascribe to the Lord’ means ‘regard the Lord as the source of these wonders’ I guess.

‘The Lord’ is repeated eighteen times but the phrase ’ the voice of the Lord’ is only repeated seven times. Any significance in the repetition x 7.

#65

Hey Dick,

Yea, we give God the glory but He also shares His glory.

#66

OK Cole –

I think it’s good to get inside the Psalm and its structure/how it is crafted – even if it seems tedious at first. So I’ll suggest that it has three main divisions and ask a few questions of you and others to get the ball rolling :slight_smile:

Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings,
ascribe to the Lord glory and strength.
2 Ascribe to the Lord the glory due his name;
worship the Lord in the splendor of holiness.

Who is being addressed here. Is it the reader or some others?

3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth
and strips the forests bare,
and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”

What natural phenomena is being described here as begin caused by the Lord and a revelation of the Lord? ( I think the pregnant deer in verse 9 may be going into labour caused by fright. Lebanon and Sirion, or Hermon, are the two principal mountains of Palestine, Hermon being visible throughout almost the whole extent of the Holy Land, and Lebanon enjoying a commanding position beyond Galilee to the north.)

What does the image ‘The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire’ refer to literally?

What do you make of the sevenfold repetition of ‘The voice of the Lord’ here?

10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
11 May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!

Does the last part contrast with the rest in any way - especially as a contrast to the middle part. Is there a paradox implicit here?

‘The Lord sits enthroned over the flood’ – what does this mean?

Overall what is the main way in which this poem is structured and patterned in its language, Is there any obvious way in which the structure of the first two verses and the final two verse is identical so as to give a sense of completeness and coming full circle

#67

Dick,

It depends on the person. Once one transcends the rational into a spiritual way of seeing it can be terrifying. It later calms down though.

I don’t make anything out of the repletion. I would have to ask the author why He did that.

The flood: Knowing that God is in control in the midst of turmoil gives one peace. Peace amidst the storm. Like Jesus had in the boat.

#68

I like that a lot Cole :smiley:

#69

It sounds like a hurricane. Do they have hurricanes in the coastal regions of the Middle East? I remember memorizing that psalm and imagining myself on a pavilion, watching it all happening around me. (But I expect a pavilion is the last place anyone would want to be in the midst of a storm like that, except in their imagination.) I like the idea of David sitting their in the palace with the windows boarded up, dictating this poem to his scribe by lamplight with everyone wrapped up in blankets to keep out the chill of the wind that would inevitably find its way inside.

#70

Hey Dick,

Great! It’s one of the things that has helped me out. I see reality as being connected without division. It’s like the Trinity. Where I once saw division I now only see One. For me everything Is one. When I’m having a problem or disturbed I simply let go and let God. This is the same as faith or acceptance. I do this before I take action if needed. A good prayer for me is the Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

#71

Sobornost said:

The flood could be a reference to the sea of chaos the Hebrews saw creation emerging from, perhaps? So God is Lord not only of the created order, but also of the chaos from which it is born?
I think that fits with the chaotic and destructive imagery. I don’t know that literally God is responsible for such things as hurricanes, at least not directly, though they are part of the free environment we find ourselves in, but the Psalmist saw Him in it, and credited Him for it, which is perhaps poetically and indirectly true.
What i love is the last verse, after all the brutal forces of nature give glory to God their Creator, the Psalmist knows it is appropriate to ask the same God for peace.

#72

Yay, James I agree totally. Excellent point and what you say also chimes with Cole’s spiritual/mystical/inner meaning of the text
The relevant parts are -

3 The voice of the Lord is over the waters;
the God of glory thunders,
the Lord, over many waters.
4 The voice of the Lord is powerful;
the voice of the Lord is full of majesty.
5 The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars;
the Lord breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf,
and Sirion like a young wild ox.
7 The voice of the Lord flashes forth flames of fire.
8 The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness;
the Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
9 The voice of the Lord makes the deer give birth
and strips the forests bare,
and in his temple all cry, “Glory!”

The sevenfold repetition of ‘the voice of the Lord IMHO take us back to the Creation story of seven ‘days’ where the Spirit of God brooded over the waters of chaos and made an orderly creation from chaos. The majestic creative power of God is envisaged in extended metaphor as a terrible storm here with thunder and lightening that is so terrible that even the mountains ‘skip’ (and this is poetic hyperbole that Jesus will later be very fond of using). They do have terrible hurricane like storms in Israel from time to time apparently Cinders.

10 The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;
the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
11 May the Lord give strength to his people!
May the Lord bless his people with peace!

Yes It almost seems that destruction rather than creation is being spoken of in the extended metaphor of the storm, but in the closing two verses peace is restored… The Lord sits enthroned over the flood –as the waters of chaos are enclosed in the firmaments at the creation. And yes (as Cole says) this process of the creation of the physical universe that at first seems terrifying but with ‘fear not’ becomes peace and order, is recapitulated in Jesus stilling of the storm, and in our experience as we are made a new creations. (I would also add that in the storm passage the deer do give birth which is a creative act even if the birthing has been brought on by fear of the storm - so this anticipates the peace/rest after travail in the last two verses))

The Lord sitting enthroned over the flood also reminds me of first temple imagery where the priest king as God’s anointed vicegerent sat enthroned over the temple sea contained in the great brass basin as a liturgical act ‘on earth as it is in heaven’.

So that’s almost it. But back to the beginning. The poem is addressed to heavenly beings or sons of God. Why do you think this is?

#73

i love that, Dick, especially the sevenfold repetition echoing the seven days of creation.

Heavenly beings…that is interesting, and what does “ascribe” mean here? Does that mean give credit for?

I was half wondering if they were talking about the stars and sun and moon, but i’m not so sure. There is a song adaptation of this though that changes Heavenly Beings for Ye Mighty. That may be a KJV thing, i’ll have to check.
Sometimes kings of the earth are referred to in hyperbolic tone as having celestial connotations. This may be due to cultural views of kings as being avatars of pagan deities. Could this be what this is referring to?

Or maybe Lovecraft was right, and there are vast alien beings swimming through the universe, and the Psalmist is telling even them to worship this great God that tamed the chaos…ok, my geekiness is showing now :mrgreen:

#74

Yes James ascribe means give credit for in the sense of ‘acknowledge as the cause of’

I think you’ve sort of hit the nail on the head James - even the geeky comment :smiley:

This is wot I wrote -

‘Heavenly beings’ or ‘sons of gods’ are being addressed here directly. This seems puzzling at first. However, this Psalm is an assertion of pure monotheism – hence the eighteen repetitions of ‘Lord’ emphasising that God alone is the creator and lord. The Israelites when this Psalm was composed were not yet weaned from polytheism. In polytheism the causes of natural phenomena are ascribed to many different gods there is a god of the sun, a god of rain, a god of the earth etc. In Israel’s religion there are angels but these are not gods – they are merely celestial beings who carry out God’s will. So by reminding these beings that God is the source, the poet is actually reminding his audience of the same

Also since the Davidic King is seen as God’s vicegerent and the King’s of the Nations are represented in prophetic and apocalyptic literature as stars this may refer to first Temple enthronement liturgy in which the kings acknowledge the Lord’s anointed as their Master (on earth as it is in heaven).

The first two verses and the last two both repeat the name of the Lord four times (two in each verse). So the Psalm begins and ends with the strongest affirmation of the Lordship of God – and so comes full circle (like the previous Psalm we looked at began and ended with ‘Bless the lord my soul’’.

#75

Hey Dick,

I also see God as the source of Glory. I also see that we give it back to Him. When it’s divided it sounds arrogant either way. This is why I think it’s both/and. Yes God is glorious but He also shares His glory and we give it back. We are moving from glory to glory. God gets the credit but so do we. He gets some and we get some.

#76

That’s good Cole :smiley: That’s a bit like the reciprocal blessing in the previous psalm. God is the source of all blessing but we can also reciprocate and return this blessing to God (and to each other and to creation?) by doing God’s will. Likewise God is the source of all glory but we can reciprocate/become glorious by growing into God’s likeness. I said in a previous email that God alone is worthy of praise - as ultimate Creator and Sustainer yes. But this does not mean that God is not pleased with us as we collaborate in His creative purposes with ‘well done good and faithful servant’. Nor does it mean we should not encourage each other - both to hope and against despair - in our steps forward along with our steps backwards to and from glory. Encouragement is always an affirmation of worth and therefore a form of praise if different from the praise we give to God as the source of all good things. Sorry if I overstated the point earlier. :slight_smile:

#77

So we have those in power in some sense being symbolically urged to worship the Lord

These triumphal Psalms, undermined as they are by the penitent king and anti-scapegoating Psalms, show that God allows us to express our feelings…whether those of sorrow and revenge in Psalm 137 or triumphal “YEAH! WE WIN! GOD IS ON OUR SIDE!” type Psalms in a similar vein to this.
But God quietly comes along behind, re-imagining the whole concept of kingship to mean servitude and suffering for others, and eventual peace, which this psalm eludes to after the chaos of the beginning.

#78

That’s an excellent point Dick. I no longer see anything wrong with praising or complementing others. We do it with babies all the time. Again it’s both/and. Being grateful to God and other people. Words of affirmation are one expression of love. Things like “I love You” “You did a great job” “thank you”. I think maybe constructive criticism works as well. After all we are both good and bad.

#79

Well you’ve made excellent points too here Cole - good job :smiley: Constructive criticism should be like a hamburger in three tiers, First you say something positive. then you deal with the grim stuff constructively suggesting ways in which change can take place. And then you end on the positive. That’s the teachers’ technique and I think Cindy is brill at it (to me also :laughing: ).

Wow James, that’s a mouthful and a half -

I think that’s one possible meaning here. The primary meaning is an assertion of pure monotheism. However - if a first Temple setting is imagined with its great sea of brass and its throne - it is not only the glory of God and the realisation of the derivative status of the sons of God that is being talked about (although that is in the primary context). You are right these sons of God were also are connected with the kings of the nations who are symbolised by stars elsewhere in the OT and the Apocalypse of John. And this psalm could have also been asserting the authority of the Davidic King who ruled Israel’s client kings as God’s anointed Son. I understand that in the first Book of Enoch, which is a Temple text, the stars process into the temple from the east, which many think refers to the kings bringing tribute.

But yes, along with psalms that may speak of royal enthronement in the earthly as well as the heavenly Temple we also have the penitential psalms with the broken King who has had Uriah the foreigner murdered, and the imprecatory psalms which give vent to the feelings of the victims of oppression (along with their vengeful feelings - Dave has given a sensitive treatment to this elsewhere); but unlike other literature of the time at least they do give voice to the victims.

And yes - I think you are right that in the light of the later servant songs of Isaiah and the entire ministry of Jesus in which Kingship is redefined as pure loving service this psalm and others again take on a different set of meanings for Christians today.

Good stuff :smiley:

#80

James – this that you said is such beauty – yes, this is what God is like!

Cole, very true. People need our praise and encouragement just as they sometimes need our gentle (or not so gentle on occasion) censure. I think maybe the sort of praise we ought to think of as destructive is praise not for our attempts toward goodness, but of our natural attributes – that is, praise of our intellect, physical beauty, and other things we can’t influence and can’t rightly take even the teensiest amount of credit for. Even in such attributes it’s probably okay to give judicious praise. The goal of course is to elevate the person but without causing damage to him/her. Praising a girl’s appearance if she sees herself as unacceptable in that department is probably fine, while praising a man’s intellect when we know he’s already far too proud of it is likely destructive. I agree with you – I’m just expanding on it as I think it’s an important subject and interesting.

James & Dick, I love the imagery of the high priest symbolically enthroned over the brazen sea (the bronze laver). I hadn’t thought of it as symbolic of the sea of chaos, but that’s an amazing image. That brings it all full circle, because I think the laver is also symbolic of the Lake of Fire (which would contain – until they’re no more – the remnants of chaos that the still-lost need purged away from them in order that they might be free).

I’m loving this discussion! Thanks to all!

Cindy