dear Cindy,
I love the psalms and I love poetry. This thread I find absolutely fascinating and brings so much more to me in the poetry and the meaning of the psalms. Wonderful initiative Cindy 
but I think Michael you have a point on the choice of psalm 2! 
How about more familiar psalms! 103 praise the Lord oh my soul and 121 I will lift up my eyes unto the hills, for example? Just a thought.
Love to all
Michael
Hey Michael,
I agree Michael. I think this was a great idea by Cindy. I just don’t like abuse. When I was a little kid my dad was abusive towards me and my mom. He left when I was young (thank God). This is why I’m strongly against abuse. Especially against children and women. I think this is also why I feel more comfortable around women than I do men. Men are more cruel in my experience.
Thanks, Michael, for sharing those memories with me. So good reading your posts over recent months that God’s love is flowing strong!
Blessings!
Michael in Bcn
This is one of the points of looking at the psalms, guys. I actually do like this one, but I undoubtedly interpret it in a very much different way than you do. I’d like though, to give others a go at musing over this. It could be a difficult psalm for universalists and so I think it’s useful to have a look at it. Perhaps [tag]Paidion[/tag] or [tag]Sherman[/tag] or [tag]Alan[/tag] or [tag]Alex Smith[/tag] might have something to say about this one?
Ok dear Cindy agreed and let me have a go but I hope we have a less fearsome one after finishing with this No 2.!!
But is it so fearsome as it seems at a first reading? Maybe not!
Psa 2:1-12 NKJV
(1) Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?
(2) The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
(3) “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
(4) He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The LORD shall hold them in derision.
(5) Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His deep displeasure:
(6) “Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion.”
(7) "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
(8) Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
(9) You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ "
(10) Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
(11) Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling.
(12) Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
My guess is the psalmist v1-3 puts him/herself as speaking as GOD displeased 
with the world, nations, kings, the people. Enough is enough! 
V2 
is His Annointed, His Son, and the two them teaming up together, some hundreds of years later, God’s King v4-6 the Messiah, My Son v7 Christ, to make it clear to everyone who reigns all nations, all kings, all the people (vs 8-9), of whom the kings and judges of the earth should serve and love (v12 Kiss …) the Lord. But I don’t get 
the idea of Christ dashing “them (the nations) the dashing to pieces like a potter’s vessel” . The nations, kings and rulers and people done a fair job of doing that throughout history.
HI Michael -
Something you’ve touched upon in your post - which I think is the first step in understanding this Psalm - is the issue of different voices; there certainly are a number of voices speaking here. I can ‘hear’
The voice of an unnamed narrator
The voices of the Kings of the Earth
The voice of Yahweh the Lord
The voice of the Lord’s Anointed (the Davidic King and/or the Messiah)
I also note how the last line contrasts dramatically with the rest of the poem/hymn (and this is a feature of many Psalms)
Dick, You’ve given me a good idea. I’d like to write this out as a dialogue, but I don’t have time now. If you or anyone else would like a go at it, feel free – otherwise I’ll do it when I get home. I do notice that the LXX version is a bit different toward the end.
Wherefore did the heathen rage, and the nations imagine vain things?
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together,
against the Lord, and against his Christ;
saying, Let us break through their bonds, and cast away their yoke from us.
He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock them.
Then shall he speak to them in his anger, and trouble them in his fury.
But I have been made king by him on Sion his holy mountain,
declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to me, Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.
Now therefore understand, ye kings: be instructed, all ye that judge the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice in him with trembling.
Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way:
whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled, blessed are all they that trust in him.
I like that version better Cindy. I’m sorry I can’t give you some long exegetical analysis of it though. I don’t know how.
My take on the different voices is this -
Narrator-
Wherefore did the heathen rage, and the nations imagine vain things?
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together,
against the Lord, and against his Christ;
saying,
The Kings of the Earth -
Let us break through their bonds, and cast away their yoke from us.
Narrator -
He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock them.
Then shall he speak to them in his anger, and trouble them in his fury.
The Lord’s Anointed -
But I have been made king by him on Sion his holy mountain,
declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to me,
Yahweh the Lord
Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.
Narrator
Now therefore understand, ye kings: be instructed, all ye that judge the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice in him with trembling.
Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way:
whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled,
Blessed are all they that trust in him.
I understand this as one of the Royal enthronement Psalms. Whatever its prophetic significance its original meaning concerns the enthronement of the Davidic King (who is the Christ/chrismed one). This psalm was written at the height of Israel’s’ power – before the defeated pathos of the servant songs in Isaiah. The kings of the earth/nations must refer to the nations that surround Israel and some of these have been subdued and are client kingdoms and their kings pay tribute to the Davidic King who is anointed as God’s Son in the rites of coronation enthronement… Yahweh the Lord is on the side of the Davidic King against the grumblers and those who plot Israel’s downfall out of resentment. But the last section that the narrator relates to us seems to be more universalistic – even the kings of the earth/ the nations can serve the Lord and be blessed in their trust of him.
Of course when we see this as prophecy of Jesus the Christ a complex picture can emerge. Christ understood kingship as service and led the powers in triumph by submitting to death on the cross. If we now bring these associations to this Psalm of enthronement a different picture emerges.
It doesn’t matter which scriptures we like. We can’t be united to Christ unless we obey Him. In Christ, we cannot separate obedience to Him from LOVE. I’m not talking about love feelings. Feelings come and go. We cannot be commanded to have feelings. But Christ DOES command us to love our enemies, that is, to pray for them and do good toward them. Christ gave a lot of commandments, many of which are recorded in Matthew 5,6, an 7. This is known as "the Law of Christ.
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)
If we call Christ “Lord” we must do what He told us to do. Otherwise He is not our Lord. Please read the following sayings of Christ carefully:
Jesus linked loving Him with keeping His commandments:
If you love Me, keep My commandments. (John 14:15)
The only way to REMAIN in Christ’s love is to keep His commandments:
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. (John 15:10)
Jesus doesn’t recognize as His servants those who call Him “Lord” and don’t obey Him.
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” (Luke 6:46-49)
Then Jesus gives a strong warning to those who call Him Lord but don’t obey. Even though they do many wonderful works in His Name, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and Jesus will turn them away!
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.(Matthew 7:21-27)
hey Paidion,
I acknowledge your position and promise to weigh it carefully.
Spot on Dick with the conversation!
Your comment at the end:
““Of course when we see this as prophecy of Jesus the Christ a complex picture can emerge. Christ understood kingship as service and led the powers in triumph by submitting to death on the cross. If we now bring these associations to this Psalm of enthronement a different picture emerges.””
Isn’t that what bemused so many of the Jews during Christ’s life; He was not what they expected 
, were led to believe as in this psalm.
Blessings
Michael in a distraught Barcelona who lost at home to Valencia this afternoon
I’ve only had time (company is here) to look over this thread but I can see I will enjoy it immensely. I’ll be back as soon as I can.
Paidion - that’s a lovely picture of you. My favourite I think
I’m just following this thread peripherally so far (and learning much), but I had to jump in and agree with Dick about Paidion’s avatar. My first thought was of George MacDonald and my second of William Holman Hunt. 
Wonderful picture Paidion, I think ‘You’ shine through in that image!
You look like a very tender hearted man in that picture Paidon.
Paidon - lovely picture of you …peace and good cheer be always with you
Michael in Barcelona
A few other general thoughts (that I think you might be fishing for here Cindy ) -
One notable difference between the last part of the Psalm in each version you’ve given here is the introductory phrase – ‘Kiss the Son’ and ‘Accept correction’ are very different forms of words. I note the following from good old Wiki in this connection -
Also (me again)
Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way:
whensoever his wrath shall be suddenly kindled, blessed are all they that trust in him.
I note that this Psalm is used in the Passion part of Handel’s Messiah where the enthroned King becomes the slain King and the laughter of God is the ironic divine laughter that the forces of darkness think they are triumphant when they are actually about to be defeated with Christ’s vindication in the resurrection. Here’s a clip from a slightly funky German staged version of this part of the Messiah. The visual imagery is a bit avant-garde but it does demonstrate the point of how the Psalm takes on a new meaning in the light of the revelation of Christ.
youtube.com/watch?v=IeULo9hjYcY
I think that in Christian liturgy this Psalm has often been associated with Passiontide.
Paidion,
It’s a paradox. The command is to give from the heart so that we don’t give under obligation. When this paradox pierces the heart by God’s grace we will freely give with gladness. Not under compulsion. It’s both/and not either/or. When our hearts are changed we obey out of love with joy. The word of Christ must pierce the heart and mind through a transformative experience.
Michael, good call pointing out that the psalm is intended to be seen as a dialogue rather than the point of view of a single mind. I think that’s a huge key to understanding it.
Dick, great posts! You did, imo, an excellent job of dividing Ps 2 up by speakers. Better than I probably would have done. I didn’t see quite as many speakers, but reading what you’ve done here, I feel sure you’ve got the right of it. And it was also helpful to read the info you dug up and intuited about the “kiss the Son” phrase. Of course it makes sense that the original Christian translators would prefer to use “son” if it made sense to them at all – even if it wasn’t strictly justified. To me, the first time I noticed this psalm long long ago, I thought it meant that the kings of the earth were to pay tribute/honor to the Son. Kind of like kissing the sovereign’s ring. It seemed somewhat out of character for Him to even want this kind of honor. I suppose He might accept it as a baby step in the right direction. I like “embrace purity” much better, and the sentence division makes a big difference. Amazing how much translators can do by even a small thing such as eisegeting (is that a word?) punctuation.
Paidion, great post about obeying Jesus’ commandments. It’s true that we humans will fail to obey them perfectly (in practice), but we are duty bound and love bound to do the best we can with the help of God. I think as we put forth our effort in an attitude of trust and dependence on Him, we’ll come closer and closer to the mark. Obedience isn’t something that’s done to us but something we choose to do (even though we need His help to succeed in it.) Oh yes, and I LOVE your new avatar. You look like the sort of person everyone wants to sit on the porch with and converse over iced tea or lemonade (in a couple of months – for today I’d be happier by the fire with hot chocolate! )
Cole, great observations regarding love and Father’s desire for willing and loving obedience from the heart. In reading these things you’ve said, I find that though we may express ourselves differently we don’t seem to be disagreeing at all. I think you and Paidion probably agree in practice too, though you speak with different foci. You are right. If we try to take love as a legalistic thing, it will fail. We each do need to obey Jesus from the heart because it’s what we want to do. Of course there is the fact that without His giving us a new heart and enabling us to die to sin in Him and live by His life, we wouldn’t be capable of obeying from the heart even if it were (as it often is) in our hearts to desire to love one another. It’s through Him that we become the kinds of persons who not only desire to love, but who are capable of loving.
Dave and Steve, thanks for following along! I look forward to any contributions you and anyone else would like to offer.
The only comment left to me to add to this psalm (as you’ve all done such a great job of elucidation) is the bit about “You shall rule them with a rod of iron; You shall break them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.” Iron is a symbol of strength, so I think probably this is saying that the kings of the earth and the nations (which tend to symbolize those opposed to God) will need to be ruled with strength and that the anointed King will rule with power until He’s broken the nations and the powers of the earth into pieces like a potter’s vessel. To me this is a good thing – breaking the powers of this world seems to refer to breaking the powers of hatred and despair and oppression. I think the OT picture of judgment, though often fierce, is at its core a picture of hope. God will ultimately judge the evil things and bring about the peaceable kingdom in which everyone can safely sit under his own fig tree and drink from his own vineyard and not be in fear of the powerful ones who have reigned for too, too long.
Further comments welcome!
I had thought maybe we’d move through the psalms in order, but I don’t know that the order they come in is of any particular significance. If anyone would like to suggest a particular psalm, we can surely look at that one next. I’m very much enjoying all that everyone has to say.
Love, Cindy