Is It Psychopathic To Believe In Eternal Punishment?

[anon47460357]

I do not think you answered my question. Let me be more thorough.

1. God the Father loves God the Son.
2. God the Father loves God the Holy Spirit.
3. God the Son loves God the Father.
4. God the Son loves God the Holy Spirit.
5. God the Holy Spirit loves God the Father.
6. God the Holy Spirit loves God the Son.

One of your premises is that “love always protects”. Therefore, according to that premise, the following six conclusions would follow from 1. through 6. above:

A. God the Father protects God the Son.
B. God the Father protects God the Holy Spirit.
C. God the Son protects God the Father.
D. God the Son protects God the Holy Spirit.
E. God the Holy Spirit protects God the Father.
F. God the Holy Spirit protects God the Son.

Please explain A. through F. For example, who or what threatens God the Father? From what does He need protecting? What would happen to God the Father if God the Son and God the Holy Spirit didn’t protect Him? Would God the Father be hurt? Damaged? Annihilated?

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Randy,

I guess the argument stands then.

I’ll let it stand (whatever it was) - if you like. I’m busy with language stuff, along with non-redeeming stuff (i.e. zombie movies) - this weekend. But I’ll stop by and see what’s going on here - from time to time.

[St_Michael]

I do not think you answered my question. Let me be more thorough

.

I answered your question. You fail to interact with anything I say.

[anon47460357]

I do not think you answered my question. Let me be more thorough

.

I answered your question. You fail to interact with anything I say.

Here was my question: How does (for example) God the Holy Spirit protect God the Father?

I cannot find your answer. Please quote for me your answer to that question.

[St_Michael]

The love between the persons of God isn’t exactly like it is for us. God esteems, has affections, takes pleasure in the Son. Likewise the Son for the Father. This reverberates between the two forming overflowing agape (Spirit). This one circle of love makes the one true God who is agape. Since it’s agape that always protects we can say it’s the one true God who protects us. The One True God protects Himself. The tree persons together make up and form agape.

He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High Will abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress, My God, in whom I trust!” For it is He who delivers you from the snare of the trapper, And from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with His pinions, And under His wings you may seek refuge; His faithfulness is a shield and bulwark.

You still haven’t touched the argument though. The Bible says that love always protects and that part of justice is to protect. If there is nothing in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from. Therefore evil is eternal and hell is eternal. God is outside time. He’s across time. The Bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet it happened some two thousand years ago. God is “present” in all past present and future. His protective love and justice has been “always” going on in His timeless “NOW”

[anon47460357]

The One True God protects Himself.

What and/or whom does God protect Himself from?

What would happen to God if He didn’t protect Himself?

[St_Michael]

He protects Himself from the contamination of evil. The Bible says that love always protects and that part of justice is to protect. If there is nothing in hell there’s nothing for God to protect His children from. Therefore evil is eternal and hell is eternal. God is outside time. He’s across time. The Bible says Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. Yet it happened some two thousand years ago. God is “present” in all past present and future. His protective love and justice has been “always” going on in His timeless “NOW”

What would happen to God if He didn’t protect Himself?

It’s an impossibility. God is perfect love and perfect justice. The nature of perfect love and justice is to protect.

[anon47460357]

He protects Himself from the contamination of evil.

Does evil have to exist in order for God to exist?

[Eaglesway]

He protects Himself from the contamination of evil.

Does evil have to exist in order for God to exist?

Nah, evil is a means to an end over which God speaks the last word- “I will be all in all”.

[St_Michael]

Evil is necessary and must last forever. Otherwise there’s nothing for God to protect Himself and His children from in the new creation. In the new creation there is perfect love and perfect justice. It’s the nature of perfect love and perfect justice to protect. God is the beginning and the end. He is across time and experiences all past, present, and future as being “present” in His timeless “NOW”. Example: Christ was slain some 2000 years ago in our time yet the Bible says He was slain from the foundation of the world. Indeed, the saints names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Perfect love and perfect justice are eternal

It’s the nature of perfect love and justice to protect

If there’s no evil there’s nothing to protect from

Evil must last forever in hell.

God is all in all in the new creation. The lake of fire isn’t part of the new heaven and earth.

[St_Michael]

StM, you keep saying evil is logically necessary and must last forever, but you haven’t come close to making a convincing case. Are you trolling? You’ve already conceded that the persons of God do not need protection, and so conceded that love does not protect 100% of the time. But leaving that aside, and assuming love does always protect, did you ever consider that perhaps God protects creatures from doing irreparable harm to themselves?

As I already stated, perfect love and perfect justice are in the new creation not right now for us. The one true God protects Himself. The three persons make up the trinity of agape. The love between the persons of God isn’t exactly like it is for us. God esteems, has affections, takes pleasure in the Son. Likewise the Son for the Father. This reverberates between the two forming overflowing agape (Spirit). This one circle of love makes the one true God who is agape. Since it’s agape that always protects we can say it’s the one true God who protects us and Himself. The tree persons together make up and form agape. No I’m not trolling. I think I made my case. You haven’t dealt with it. Let me know when you want to deal with the argument in my last post.

did you ever consider that perhaps God protects creatures from doing irreparable harm to themselves?

It’s not only perfect love but perfect justice. They both protect but there is also a punishing element to justice. Those in the new creation aren’t being punished. Those in hell are. Hence, the protection against evil. And since there is also a corrective element to justice those in hell receive correction and punishment but refuse to repent. Here we have all three elements - correction, punishment and protection. Moreover if you are a harm to yourself you are a harm to others. In the new creation there is a union with God and each other.

[St_Michael]

God protects himself from what? Everything that exists, with the exception of God, is not self-existent. To say God that “protects himself” implies that God and the not-God aspects of reality are part of some overarching reality. It doesn’t make sense to say that God protects himself from things that are from him, through him, and for him.

I’ve already stated that God protects Himself from evil

It’s not that simple. If I do charitable works for a poor person, I am acting justly. Who is being punished?

That’s a different aspect of justice. God’s children in the new creation receive this from God’s justice. But don’t leave out the punishing element of God’s justice. This is for evil in the lake of fire. God shows His love to His children by protecting them.

Did the pharisees go to hell? Because I seem to recall Jesus saying the pharisees will be made humble, and James saying that God gives grace to the humble.

If they were made humble then they didn’t go to hell.

[St_Michael]

Jesus said everyone who exalts himself will be made humble.

Yeah while you are here on earth. Those in the Lake of fire have their hearts separated from God’s love. As a result the longer they are in hell the harder their hearts become and the more evil and more God hating they become. Thus the need for God to protect Himself and His children from evil because of love and justice.

Ooooooh, so now you’re conceding that justice isn’t necessarily about punishment; there are “different aspects of justice”.

I’ve always believed that an aspect of justice is doing the right thing. Protecting your children from monstrous evil God haters is doing the right thing.

[St_Michael]

In the new creation where there will be perfect love and justice “All Things” are made new. “All things” is a reference to the heavens and earth. After all that’s what the merism “heavens and earth” means. The lake of fire isn’t included in the “all things” made new

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The Lake of Fire is SEPRATE. In the new heaven and earth Christ is “all in all” All flesh will worship Christ there. Those that are in heaven and earth and those saints that are resurrected from under the earth. All flesh. But not those who are in the lake of fire:

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

As we can see, those in the Lake of fire aren’t included in “all mankind”, They are “ABHORRED” by all mankind.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting abhorrence. ~ Daniel 12:2

It doesn’t say that. You are adding words to the Bible.

I haven’t added anything to the Bible. The Bible says God is perfect agape and that agape always protects. He is also perfect justice. The elements include protection. It’s in the new heavens and earth that we see this when all is consummated. In the new creation there is perfect love and perfect justice. It’s the nature of perfect love and perfect justice to protect. God is the beginning and the end. He is across time and experiences all past, present, and future as being “present” in His timeless “NOW”. Example: Christ was slain some 2000 years ago in our time yet the Bible says He was slain from the foundation of the world. Indeed, the saints names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

Perfect love and perfect justice are eternal

It’s the nature of perfect love and justice to protect

If there’s no evil there’s nothing to protect from

Evil must last forever in hell.

God is all in all in the new creation. The lake of fire isn’t part of the new heaven and earth.

[St_Michael]

The scriptures I gave show that evil will be in the lake of fire forever. Therefore they are not humble. The new creation doesn’t have evil in it. I addressed your points and you still refuse to deal with my argument. I’ve been coming here for years. I’m not a troll. I’m just trying to work through these things.

[St_Michael]

The kings of the earth and redeemed of the nations are those who have been saved during the tribulation. They have overcome and washed their robes in the blood:

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, who are these, clothed in white robes? I said to hi, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. ~~ Rev. 7:13-14

All nations is reference to the redeemed. The gates are always open in the city of the new heavens and earth. The geography outside the open gates of the city is the new creation. Look at my previous scriptures above and you will see that the Lake Of Fire isn’t part of the new heavens and earth. Those there have their hearts separated from God’s mercy. Thus the longer they are there the harder their hearts become and the more evil they become.

[St_Michael]

The kings of the earth are distinguished from the redeemed. The saints are from the nations (see Rev 5:9, 7:9), they are not the nations. The nations were the people who rebelled against God and were on the receiving end of God’s eschatological wrath.

Yes but the kings were saved during the tribulation. All nations means all nationalities or peoples.

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation - Rev. 5:9

All nations therefore is a reference to those who have been redeemed in the tribulation.

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, who are these, clothed in white robes? I said to hi, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. ~~ Rev. 7:13-14

I’m not convinced that the geography outside the open gates is the new creation. I think it makes much more sense to interpret the space outside the new Jerusalem as the lake of fire. Rev 22:15 “Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.” Outside what? The New Jerusalem.

Read this slowly. The lake of fire isn’t included in all things made new. The new heavens and earth isn’t part of the lake of fire:

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

All mankind doesn’t include those in the lake of fire:

“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” - Isaiah 66

As we can see, those in the Lake of fire aren’t included in “all mankind”, They are “ABHORRED” by all mankind.

For the third time, do souls in the LOF have free will?

Free will is the ability to choose. It’s the mind choosing. There’s always a reason for our choices even if we aren’t aware at the moment what that reason is. That is to say, there are motives. God looks at the motives of our heart as well as the decisions. For without motives our choices have no moral significance and cannot be judged good or evil. They are self-determined. Done by us. Motivated by something within and not by external factors. God is in control in that He operates on our hearts giving us the desire and ability to love Him above all else. But the decision is made by us. Nonetheless, God gets the glory for His grace. He doesn’t cause evil but permits it by withholding His grace. So yes they have free will in that sense.

I’m sure you’re aware that the word translated “forever” is used in the Septuagint to describe things that did in fact come to an end.

This is true but it can also mean forever and ever. Check out the parallels.

and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, ~~ Rev. 10:6

And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. - Rev 22:5

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. - Rev. 20 10

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. - Matt. 25:46

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting abhorrence. ~ Daniel 12:2

[St_Michael]

Those clothed in white linen are juxtaposed with the nations. When it says Jesus may strike down the nations, is it saying Jesus may strike down the saints/redeemed? NO! It’s saying the nations will be struck down by Jesus because it’s the nations that rebelled against him!

Yes but there are people who are saved in the tribulation. They overcome by being washed in the blood of the lamb.

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, who are these, clothed in white robes? I said to hi, Sir, you know. And he said to me, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. ~~ Rev. 7:13-14

It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations.

By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it

These are part of the all things made new and all humanity. But those in the lake of fire are not part of this as I showed with the scriptures. The gates in the city are open to the heavens and earth. Not to the lake of fire. The lake of fire isn’t part of the new creation.

If they have free will, then they can repent and enter the always-open gates of the New Jerusalem.

They don’t want to repent because their hearts are separated from God’s mercy. Being separated from God’s mercy they become more evil. They don’t want God. Moreover, the gates of the city are always open to the heavens and earth. Not the lake of fire. The lake of fire isn’t part of the new creation.

The point I was making is the forever and ever is used with God and heaven and then parallel with the lake of fire. The words can mean forever and ever.

[St_Michael]

I’m not trolling. I wasn’t aware that the kings were in the lake of fire. Thanks for this. That clears some things up for me.

[St_Michael]

Okay,

Everybody will make it but Satan and his angels are tormented forever and ever. Hows that?