The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Will

Theology Biblical Theology
#22

I don’t believe there are any coincidences in life. God knows all, and certainly the things we cannot choose, were choosen by Him. He knit us in our mother’s womb.

I was born into an abusive home, then lived in an abusive marriage, and I will tell you that today, I see that all the sorrow and terrible things that I endured, have brought me closer to God. The journey I traveled, with Him, has taught me that He can transform any life, and use all the horrible things in our lives for a purpose. God does not want evil to befall us, but there is evil in this fallen world. But, God uses all things for good for those who love Him and are called to His purpose.

**Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
**

What is the reason? I believe all things here on earth are meant to bring Him glory. Because of sin, it doesn’t always work out that way…at least not from what we can see. But, I do believe, when Jesus in ‘all in all’ we will see how all things did work for good, somehow.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

One day, I was distraught by something that happened at my job. I was praying and crying out to God…how could I escape the terrible coping skills I had learned growing up, which seemed to keep hindering me. But, while in my despair, I realized that God was telling me, very powerfully, that ‘they’ did not raise me, but rather, God raised me. And, that I was who I am because of Him, and not them. He let me know I had to look at these issues I was upset over, from a different perspective. That day changed me. It was just a piece of the transformation I had to have, and continue to experience.

**Romans 8:18 - 25
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.
**

**Psalm 27:

7 Hear my voice when I call, Lord;
be merciful to me and answer me.
8 My heart says of you, “Seek his face!”
Your face, Lord, I will seek.
9 Do not hide your face from me,
do not turn your servant away in anger;
you have been my helper.
Do not reject me or forsake me,
God my Savior.
10 Though my father and mother forsake me,
the Lord will receive me.
11 Teach me your way, Lord;
lead me in a straight path
because of my oppressors.
12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes,
for false witnesses rise up against me,
spouting malicious accusations.
**
1 Thessalonians 5: 16 -18
16Rejoice at all times. 17Pray without ceasing. 18Give thanks in every circumstance, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.

But, I will tell you, I would not give up my past now, as much as it was often a nightmarish existence, because I know I would not have the relationship with God, and even with people, that I do now, if I hadn’t had to claw my way up the mountain, in anlagorian terms, with God leading the way.

And, though I still struggle with many issues, I will tell you that I am a very different person today, than I was, and have continued to keep changing, all through the years. I thank God that I lived to see myself in the ‘land of the living’ now. He has truly come to set the captives free. And, I will tell you that I am a powerful witness to His glory, and His majesty. I have shared my story with many people, and have seen the things from my past be turned into characteristics that have and continue to help many people. I cannot be silenced as to how great our mighty God is.

Luke 4:18
…17the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written: 18“The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”…

Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

So, to get back to your comment, LLC, yes, God does allow terrible things, but somehow uses them for good, if we allow Him to. I am sure all our past struggles will one day bring Him glory. That is why we are here, I believe. To be in a love relationship with God and one another, and to bring God glory. We are all parts of the Body, bringing about His marvelous plan to Creation. We bring Him glory, as He transforms each and everyone of us, eventually, into a new creation. We become His masterpiece, and we acknowledge Him as our Savior, as we accept Him, through faith. We are ‘born again’ in water and the Spirit.

**John 3:5 - 15
5Jesus answered “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” Jesus replied, “and do you not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.b 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
**

It took me over 50 years to realize many things about my past…it was a slow, daunting journey. But, now, looking back, I realize what I stated about Dorothy, in the Wizard of Oz…He was always there to guide me…all I needed to do was to call upon Him. So much of the ‘wrestling’ we perceive we need to endure is, I think, lots of our own hesitancy to let go and let God take the steering wheel.

But, I am blessed beyond measure that I have lived to see the fruition of what God has done and continues to do, in my life.

1 Peter:2-9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

To God be the Glory!

D.

#23

Hi LLC

Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

We know from the rest of the text that Christ was making a statement to Israel here. He wanted them to know who He was and what he was capable of. But the context, IMO is also one which transcends to us today. I believe that believers are the vessel of Christ, or we could say the way Christ works in the world today. Each of us has a unique story or testimony that when we become a vessel for His use will be able to touch another person who is struggling with or has been through similar circumstances as we have gone through.

The child born into an abusive household is uniquely qualified, once spiritually healed, to help those who are going through the same trials. For us to question if God can be merciful and still allow that to happen is, quite honestly, an appropriate response, but once we start to see the larger picture, it does make sense. It is what free will (or maybe free agency is a better way of putting it) is all about. And I would say that God may not actively choose to put a person in a woeful position in life but He can and does allow it and miraculously use those bad things for good in many situations.

I must say I believe in miracles that happen every day. :smiley:

#24

Hi LLC

Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

We know from the rest of the text that Christ was making a statement to Israel here. He wanted them to know who He was and what he was capable of. But the context, IMO is also one which transcends to us today. I believe that believers are the vessel of Christ, or we could say the way Christ works in the world today. Each of us has a unique story or testimony that when we become a vessel for His use will be able to touch another person who is struggling with or has been through similar circumstances as we have gone through.

The child born into an abusive household is uniquely qualified, once spiritually healed, to help those who are going through the same trials. For us to question if God can be merciful and still allow that to happen is, quite honestly, an appropriate response, but once we start to see the larger picture, it does make sense. It is what free will (or maybe free agency is a better way of putting it) is all about. And I would say that God may not actively choose to put a person in a woeful position in life but He can and does allow it and miraculously use those bad things for good in many situations.

I must say I believe in miracles that happen every day. :smiley:

An excellent Bible verse to use, maintenanceman!

Yes, this is what free will is about. That, through all the hardships and joys of our lives, we come to faith, and choose God, rather than darkness. We all finally choose God, because it is God that loves us, and we all will eventually come to know and be captivated by that love. ‘Love never fails’ ( 1Corinthians13:8) Certainly God’s love never fails.

****John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
**
And, we become children of God, part of one Body of believers. As we are transformed, we can become witnesses to others, until one day, all darkness with be flooded with the Light of the World, Jesus.

God created us, but He wants to transform us, as well. And, for that, He wants us to cooperate with Him, in His glorious plan. And, to cooperate, we must die to our self, and allow Him to live in us.

**John 12:24
Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
**
We all must die with Him, to then live with Him. Just as Jesus had to die, to bring us all Salvation.

What an incredible story of Salvation, and Love, and Joy!

D.**

#25

First off, I would like to give my definition of free will.
Free will to choose between good and evil. Not between an apple or peach. Or to help the poor or the sick.

Sure we have the ability to choose between good and evil since Adam & Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
What I wonder about is if Adam & Eve actually had free will, since before eating that fruit they apparently didn’t have a knowledge of good and evil.
Additionally when they were tempted by Satan did that affect their ability to choose? But we must have so called free will to be fairly qualified to be judged.

#26

When will people learn that this passage in context does not teach that God works ALL EVENTS together for the good of those who love Him? Just look around you. It is clear that some events that disciples endure do them no good at all! How does the rape and murder of a disciple’s little girl work for anyone’s good?

To understand what this is really about, all we need to do is to examine the context.

28 Now to the ones who love God, we know that God works everything together for good, to the called ones in keeping with his purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order to be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom He pre-appointed, He also called, and those whom He called, He also rendered righteous, and those whom He rendered righteous, He also glorified.

In this passage, Paul is describing a process that God is working within the disciples’ hearts and minds. They are first foreknown, then pre-appointed to be Christ-like. Then He calls them for a purpose. Next He renders them righteous, and finally He glorifies them. That process has not yet been complete. We are not yet totally righteous, and we are certainly not yet glorified. However, Paul also wrote:

…I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

So God’s working for the good of those who love Him, is taking place within them—in their hearts and minds. Usually, God does not manipulate events for the good of his people, but He does work in their hearts.

#27

Do you really think God would cause a man to be born blind, so that He might heal him through Jesus at this point in time? Would God deprive that man of his sight until adulthood, just so that He could heal him at that particular moment in his adult life?

Here is the ESV translation:

1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
4 We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.

But John didn’t make the verse divisions. And there were no commas and periods in Greek. The punctuation and verse divisions are often a matter of interpretation. Let’s look at the passage, by using a different set of punctuation and verse divisions:

1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents. But that the works of God might be displayed in him, we must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work.

Jesus made it clear that this man was not being punished by God, either for his own sin or that of his parents. Jesus said that He must work the works of God while there was opportunity, so that God’s works might be displayed in the blind man. Then He went ahead and healed him.

#28

Hi Paidion.

I, personally, don’t believe that God causes any evil. I do believe that He allows it.

What I can share is my own testimony, and those of some of the people I know.

I believe that God uses our pain, sorrow, hardships, catastrophies, and so on, to bring us closer to Him, and to His Kingdom.

I believe He did that for Paul.

Romans 5:
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have a peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

**3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us.
**

2 Corinthians 12:
So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me. 10That is why, for the sake of Christ, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Through our suffering is transformation. Through our suffering, we are joined together, with God.

Certainly, Jesus taught us this, as well.

Matthew 16:
21From that time on Jesusb began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!”

23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

24Then Jesus told His disciples, **“If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. 25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? **Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

28Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man c

Romans 8:
18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

There is a purpose to our suffering.

C.S. Lewis has said:
“We can ignore even pleasure. But pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”

God reaches out to us in our pain, and often in those times, we receive the blessing of HIs strength, His insight, His grace, HIs communion with us.
And, what we choose, in our pain, matters. It is when we often choose to trust God or not…to relinquish to Him or not. To give Him our all or not. And that is really what free will is ultimately about. The choices we make, on a spiritual level. Be it a small step such as taking time to help our neighbor, when we are in a hurry, or whether it is accepting pain and sorrow and sickness, in a spirit of acknowledgement that God is the Great I AM, and His decisions are what we will embrace.

As Job said, “Though He slay me, I will hope in Him.”

It is not what we would choose, but I believe it is what God uses.

D.

#29

Dandelion… would you consider being slain by someone an evil thing?

#30

Certainly God “allows” suffering, for great suffering continuously takes place throughout the world. He doesn’t actually allow it (in the sense of giving his permission), but He usually does nothing to prevent it.

But I doubt that God does nothing to prevent atrocities in order to achieve a deeper purpose. For example, what deeper purpose is being fulfilled when a little girl get raped and killed, or when a woman gets gang-raped and killed? (as was reported in the news recently).

However, even if your thesis is true, that God allows all suffering in order to achieve a deeper purpose or to cause the sufferers to learn some spiritual lesson, this is different from God actually causing the suffering for a deeper purpose or to teach a spiritual lesson.

My questions still remain:

Dandelion, though your first words were, “I, personally, don’t believe that God causes any evil,” according to the passage with the classic verse divisions, that is exactly what God did. Here is the exact quote that you posted:

As it stands, is Jesus not indicating, that the man was born blind, not because of his sin or his parents’ sin, but so that the works of God might be displayed in him? Does this not mean that he was born blind so that God would heal him on that day through Christ? In other words, God caused him to be born blind for that very purpose.

#31

paidion said:

Well how the Sam H superior are we to figure out what HE is doing and wants… You pose possibilities but don’t give any answers… Or maybe you did and I did not see it?

Valid question.

This is getting good. On another post you challenged me with the idea that we may have different definitions of FORGIVE… O K.

So what is your Idea of what EVIL is?? :slight_smile:

#32

I’ll cut you to the quick… :astonished:

What is evil? :smiley: Many different thoughts on this one.

Thanks.

#33

Dandelion:

What should we learn from the study of Job?
How do you distinguish between which evil to choose from and allow, as in the case of ethical dilemmas mentioned earlier?
If God permits evil for the greater good or learning, is he really a Deist God?

To everyone: I don’t know about free will. I would be willing to pay a quarter for it. :laughing:

#34

Hey Chad :slight_smile:

In these following texts the words “calamity” and “disaster” in the Greek is <κακός> kakos and is elsewhere translated as “evil” (there are other Gk words also translated as ‘evil’).

So, for mine… “evil” means “trouble” – and this was something God would bring upon His disobedient children, or upon any others unjustifiably harassing them.

#35

Let’s look at two answers. One from the Protestant site Got Questions and one from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy:

The Concept of Evil:

Question: “What is the definition of evil?”:

#36

Thanks David and Randy… I’m not done picking your brains about this one. It will have to wait till later this evening though.

Chad

#37

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon7059.png

Speaking of different meanings. I bumped into a zombie over the weekend. The zombie said:

I took off, as fast as possible. I think the zombie had a different meaning, from the one Chad is using. :exclamation: :laughing:

#38

I suppose if we did not have free will, there would be no evil. I see the world in which we live as free willed individuals interacting with other free willed individuals. We all want to complain about evil, yet we ourselves are participants. Did God not make His word known to us? And yet we still choose not to follow. God has clearly said “Do not covet”. Here we all are charging up our credit cards, buying things we cannot afford trying to “keep up with the Joneses”. Even worse, we shop till we drop at Christmas time in celebration of the Lord’s birth. I mean no offence to the Catholics, many are good hearted people, but does the Pope resemble Jesus? Then why are so many falling at the Pope’s feet and hanging on every word he says as if he were infallible? I don’t get it, especially when God has clearly said that we shall not worship any other god’s. God has said, “Do not steal”. Yet we don’t mind when the government reaches into the pockets of others to give handouts and buy votes. We sit around and fill our minds with crap. We watch crap on TV, read crap on the internet and let our kids play graphic crappy video games and wonder what is wrong with the world. Didn’t God say to keep our minds pure and to teach our children about Him? Evilness comes from our own choices. The question is, why do WE allow this?

#39

In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps. Proverbs 16:9

I wish I did, but right now, I don’t have time to answer all the questions posed to me. But, I will asap.

But, for now, the above is a good definition of free will. We exist in our life…born into a time, place, family, neighborhood, and so on; blessed with many talents and we realize, many things that are difficult for us, as well. Along the way, things happen…job issues, life and death issues, family issues, health issues, spiritual issues, addictions, fears, problems, lies are told to us, and on and on and on. Within this web, we make choices…spiritual choices, material world choices, sometimes they overlap. But, whenever there is a spiritual component,our choices either bring us closer to God, by doing His will, or we choose another path, which is not God’s will for us. It is always about letting God have our very lives…it is about dying to self, so we might live in Jesus, and become part of the body of believers. We will be our best selves, when we give up our carnal nature, and let God be the vine, of which we are the branches. We either grow with HIm, or away from Him, depending on our choices.

For me, it is simple and clear.

John 14: 18 - 21
18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while, the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

We must have choices to make, or we would be slaves, not children. But, we are children…and children have their limits. And, so do we. All choices are not ours, but those which have been given us to make. I believe we need to see and experience the journey, to know who we are and who we are in relation to God. We were meant to ‘walk with the Lord’ on our journey; we were meant to be the clay and He the potter, as our journey has the potential to mold us into a masterpiece, and, I believe, eventually will.

D.

#40

First off, I’m sure this has been discussed in this forum before but since we are talking about Free Will, we may re hash…

So calamity and disaster are sometimes translated evil. David, you said you look at it as ‘trouble’, something God would bring on his naughty children or those bullying them (my wording).

So is your view of biblical evil (trouble) the same as your view of moral evil? And, I am taking this in a modern sense as in recent history. In other words, is the calamity / destruction caused by a person somehow caused or perhaps allowed by God to in some way establish or correct a situation on earth in modern times? Or, as we read in the onset of the Noah flood, is man’s evil merely wickedness within his heart?

Also, if we take a few snippets of Randy’s post:

and also:

So the point is, in OT times, God would bring (allow) a foreign nation to come and whip the tar out of Israel. There would be defilement and pillage and all sorts of real bad consequences. These acts, obviously sinful and destructive in and of themselves, are somehow viewed as necessary or at the least, simply consequences of wrong choices. Most will not label anything God does as ‘evil’.

So were the Assyrians and Babylonians Evil?

Look forward to everyone’s input.

Chad

#41

Let’s look at an answer, from the Got Questions site: Why does God allow evil men like Hitler and Saddam to come into power?. While we might not agree with them (or everything they say), they do give us food for thought.