The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free-will is a myth

Theology
#41

Being sinful does not prohibit us from choosing in a life or death circumstance. People drag themselves off to hospital everyday because they recognize that they are in need of a doctor. God wants us to recognize that we are sick and that we need a doctor, and that doctor is Christ. We are capable of recognizing this. God has made a way for us to understand this by having sinful man become involved in producing and circulating God’s word. Sinful men are part of the bible in every single way, and so the knowledge of God is trumpeted through sinful men. Free-will allows man to make the choice to believe or to stay agnostic. Sinful man is certainly capable of belief, and that is why God expects us to respond to the good news of the gospel. Not everyone will - but that is their choice. God judges us on the basis of these choices. We choose who to marry, who to teach us, who to respect, who to love, who to submit to, who to compromise with, what doctrines to believe, what bible to buy, what food we eat, what house we live in, what friends we cherish, and how we should repent. We are free to make many choices - as many as are available to us. Even then, sometimes we prefer others to make choices for us, but that still is our choice (in most instances).

Free-will is alive and well. It is not a myth, it is part of being human.

Steve

#42
#43

This speaks of a special time of grace, not about the constitution of all men. This is part of the reason your are confused, IMO. You are reading scriptures through a specific lens. Most denominations do the same. There are probably plenty here who have stepped out from underneath the drudgery of sectarian lenses.

#44

Wow, Cindy, you just described the book of Hosea! :stuck_out_tongue:

#45

I absolutely abhor the traditional doctrines of Calvinist theology, as it just doesn’t square with the scriptural idea that God is no respector of persons. So for the most part, I’ve been a free-will advocate, with the caveat that God is ultimately in control of the leash (He holds us in a certain boundary so that we will not completely destroy ourselves as a race).

However…

In light of the discovery of Universal Reconciliation, and the hope that God will eventually save everyone, I find that Calvinist universalism to have far less revulsion to me and in fact makes sense in light of certain scriptures. And indeed would even support universalism’s success. Particular evidence is found in John chapter 6, as it seems to have a logic problem if universalism ISN’'T true:

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” (John 6:37)

“And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:44-45)

If all that the Father gives to Jesus will be raised up in the last day, then “all” encompasses everyone who will be saved, for Jesus should lose nothing. And this includes everyone “that cometh to me”. Yes, it is essential that in order to be saved we need to come to Him and believe.

However, as vs 44 tells us, no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This presents a dilemma to those who believe that we have the free will to come to Christ, as we evidently do not have the ability to come to Christ without the Father’s assistance. And if you are a proponent of ECT, and salvation is only available in this lifetime, then you have to conclude that the Father is biased against those who have died without Christ, since apparently the Father did not draw them to Christ before their death. Because everyone that is drawn to Christ will be saved.

But it only make sense if one believes in salvation beyond the grave and the the Father will eventually draw everyone, if not now, then post-mortem, as vs 45 tells us that “they all shall be taught of God” and “Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” This is both Calvinistic and universal in scope.

If ever I would believe in Calvinism, it would be on that basis.

#46

Hi Dondi,

I think we need to be careful, once adopting universalism, in assuming that every verse has hidden within it a universalism clause (or that they speak of “predestination” specifically when God’s sovereignty is mentioned).

The passages in John 6, firstly, are speaking of the first-fruit believers. John, in his writings, particularly references the dichotomy between those who believe and those who don’t believe - those who receive life and those who receive death. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves" (John 6:53). This is not a plea for universalism, but of the special relationship (and life) for those who receive Christ now: They are “given power to become sons of God” (John 1:12).

Second, the father draws all men to the Son through the cross: "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:31, 32). “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away” (Matthew 13:47, 48).

The last point of “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” is the parabolic nature of what is written. Calvinists tend to read this extremely literal because it suits their lens they see the world through. These passages in John speak of the dynamics between free-will and sovereignty: “the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out” (John 6:37).

Steve

#47

Dondi!

You’re right! I didn’t even notice it, but yes, that is basically Hosea. :laughing: Thanks for pointing it out. :slight_smile:

Blessings, Cindy

#48

I’m impressed by your insight. It is important to not get entrenched in our beliefs and always remain teachable. This attitude speaks well of you my brother. I personally don’t feel the need to make people agree with me anymore or to get the last word in. I wasn’t always like that. I had to learn. I was chastised and instructed. It’s not my job to convince them. Each will come to their own personal rhema as God sees fit to reveal it to them. We just need to remain open to receive it. None of us have all truth yet. So regardless what others say, even if they don’t agree. remain true to the place that God has drawn YOU to, because your truth is there.

#49

There doesn’t seem to be much difference between God “forcing man to sin”, or God “simply allowing man to act according to his own fallen nature”. For if God could save the over 99% of the population who are not disciples of Christ, but chooses not to do so when He could do so, isn’t God somehow responsible for their failure to become disciples?

But there are millions who are not rebel sinners. Many of them know nothing about God and have never heard of Jesus. Is that fact meaningless? Are they going to have to “pay the consequences” for their sin whether they knew any better or not?

The way I see it, is that God’s desire is that everyone become righteous in all his ways, serving others in their need. He has provided a way to make it much easier to be righteous (as God wants everyone to be), by the magnificent sacrifice of Christ. He will never give up on anyone until ALL have repented and submitted. The grace of God is not merely “unmerited favour”; it is divine enablement. Here are Paul’s words to Titus:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with total command. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

All of this is made possible through Christ.

For there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

#50

As someone who is bipolar with psychoses I have learned the scientific facts that I’m not responsible for my genes or upbringing. The facts now tell us that these factors have caused my character and disease. No, not everyone has mental disorders. But the urge for pure retribution depends partly on not seeing the underlying causes of people with disorders behavior. Justice should be remedial and restorative in certain cases. In my case, the cycle is broken with love and medication. While you may change some people’s outward behavior with rules and threats of punishment because they have free will, a heart change is what matters to me. But by the grace of God go I.

No Freedom

Some have more freedom of the will
Others take a therapeutic pill
For they are not aware of what they do
Hurting and hating while confused

Unable to tell the true from false
Mixed up inside as they are lost
Crazy in the heart and conscious brain
Out of touch with themselves and insane

They are confused about what is real
Not knowing how to act or how to feel
Driven by their soul’s corrupt desire
Out of control just like a burning fire

Torn up inside and cut to shreds
Taking their many different meds
Their spirits darken and turn to steel
Without any freedom of the will

by Cole

#51

That’s a beautiful poem, Cole. I lost my mind for a while after my accident. I had swelling of the brain and fluid on the brain, and I have long periods of concussion symptoms. I still do sometimes. I went through a period where I lost control, and nearly got myself into a world of pain from saying and doing things outside of my “normal” self. I felt like I turned into Nebuchadnezzar for seven years. I am still in recover now, but I am not on any medication (apart from my self-medicated Kefir :slight_smile:). It can be very scary if you loose control of your senses.

Steve

#52
#53

Great quote from Justin.

#54

I resist my meds; I keep thinking that if I’m medicated, it’s not the ‘real me’ that is enjoying the world and friends.
But it’s not true. In fact I have adopted a saying from, I believe, Freud, to the effect that the aim of (therapy, medication) is to raise the patient up to the general level of unhappiness and depression of the general society.

I still laugh at that, and especially since it is true. I take the barest amount of depression meds that I can; they don’t give me a ‘lift’, they just keep me from a mostly genetic disposition to sink lower into fixation with self or doctrine or whatever - and a God-dishonoring lack of humor.

As to free will: I just don’t think it is a question with any real value, outside, maybe, law courts. (“My client is an addict and had no freedom of choice when he did…”) Actually - if I agree or disagree with the concept ‘freedom of will’ - it makes absolutely no difference in how I live. If I try to excuse bad behavior with the excuse that I had no freedom to do otherwise - it’s not the concept that is faulty, it’s that the will is captive to the person, not vice-versa.

I’m sticking to Paidion’s definition and my own FreeWillEnoughDefense. That’s maybe not quite $.02, but I smell a pumpkin roll from the kitchen and I am free to stop writing and go get me some of that…:slight_smile:

Cheer up, ye saints of God!!

#55

Thanks Steve!

Here’s another one:

Bipolar Psychoses

Pondering the big issues as my mind races
Thinking I’ve crossed over into new places
No longer mortal I gaze at my own reflection
A long, dark beard covers my complexion
Christ incarnates Himself through my being
How could this be? I can’t believe what I’m seeing!
A shiny diamond sits on the top of my head
Every path of color before me I fear to tread
For they all lead to an early and very slow death
Fear strikes my soul as I begin to grasp for breath
Paranoid and worried about what I just felt
I reach for the phone and cry out for help

By Cole

#56

Justin Martyr: “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 95)

Tatian: “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

Melito: “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

Theophilus: “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

Irenaeus: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

Clement of Alexandria: “We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

Tertullian: “I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)

Free-will is one of the most universally agreed upon teachings within the early church fathers. It wasn’t until the 4th century that great rifts and polarities started to develop.

Steve

#57

Another good one, Cole…

#58

Excellent, Dave!

Another great poem too, Cole.

#59

deaded,

I also go to A.A. and there is a guy there I know who has the same diagnosis as me. His sponsor talked him into getting off his meds because he thought all he needed was the twelve steps. Well, one thing led to another and pretty soon he got paranoid and thought people were coming after him to torture him. He got in his truck and drove 5 hours to the coast here in Texas and tried to swim across the ocean. They had to get a boat to pick him up.

#60

Sponsors need to stick with what they know. I’m glad the guy got rescued, and I hope the sponsor learned something as well.