I thought it a bit puzzling, since he says he uses only a literal translation. The word is literally “heart” (kardia), so I’d like to know where he’s finding “mind.”
Sonia
Yes as the heart expresses what it feels through the mind.
The quote I used was from the gospel of Marie.
youtube.com/watch?v=XN_uLYJB … re=related
Regards
DL
Just FYI, while many of us (though not I) are familiar with the gnostic gospels, most of us (in concert with the rest of the church) don’t consider most of them to be of significant importance except (in some cases) for elucidating the thought of the times in which they were written. You being a gnostic will no doubt hold them in somewhat higher esteem, which is fine. You might want to know though, that the majority of people here won’t find them definitive.
As for the heart being influenced by the mind rather than vice versa, I personally strive for the opposite. It’s a mix at present, but the mix imo should be nudged in favor of the heart/spirit as much as possible and as quickly as may be. IMO the mind is a component of the flesh/sarx and while a wonderful, useful, enjoyable thing, it is to be the servant and not the master of the spirit/heart. Placing the mind in the seat of power rather than the heart/spirit appears to me to be eating from the wrong tree if you know what I mean. 
Actually I do not. There is only one tree that give knowledge. The tree of knowledge of good and evil.
What are you calling the wrong tree and what is the right one?
Your mind and brain are what decides what a situation is before your heart or spirit, whatever that is, get’s the information. It is not your heart the decides which way to turn. It is you mind.
You have enlightenment happening where there is no thought. Impossible.
================
As to the Gnostic Gospels, their value is in their existence as they show the initial corruption of the early church.
Other than that, they are just a myth like all other religious holy books.
If any here are literalists, I offer my sympathy to your lost intelligence and good sense.
Regards
DL
Reading these last couple of posts, this passage came to mind:
[Eph 1:16-18 ESV] I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints …
Just thought it was interesting, how our Bishop here says enlightenment comes from the mind – or “thought” – whereas Paul, here speaks of the enlightenment of the heart giving knowledge.
Also, I’m not exactly sure what it means to make a mind/heart division.
Sonia
You are a judge judging a proven murderer. Your heart would set him free but your wisdom from your mind tells you you cannot.
That is an imperfect mind/heart division.
On my view of enlightenment and the mind.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
A mind can perceive light but the heart feel heat, and does not perceive the enlightening that light brings.
Regards
DL
DL - would really like to hear a little about you - maybe in the ‘introductions’ thread? You’re obviously marching to a different drummer than most of the members here - and that makes you interesting! (so are the other members, of course ) Hearing a bit about your journey would be a nice addition to the Forum.
Thanks for the interest.
Please see this link to an O.P. I just put up and opine if you like.
Regards
DL
Wow that was beautiful. Buddhist see this in a very similar way. I am glad to know that there are Christians that get it. Shamans also talk of
Non-Ordinary Reality. In fact all the higher teachings of every religion I have studied support the view you put forth here.
Gnostic Bishop,
I’ve done quite a lot of study on what “heart” seems to mean in the bible. I realize from what you say that you categorize the bible as a fairy tale – there are worse by far things than fairy tales, and containing far less of truth – but nevertheless that’s probably not what you mean by it. Okay – it’s your right (and duty if you think it correct) to believe that, but you’re on a Christian website and have come here of your own free will, and we will not agree on that. You will have to put up with people considering that which you believe to be of little merit (the bible) to be in fact of great value. If I were on an atheist website I would not offer the bible as a means of persuasion, nor opine regarding it overmuch, but I’m not on an atheist website.
Mostly in our society, “heart” refers to emotion and passion and sometimes intuition. But emotion and passion and intuition are at best a function of the mind, and are VERY much a function of the body in the interaction of hormones, general health, nutrition, exercise, quality of physical exposure to light, etc. Truly the heart has little or nothing to do with emotion except in the effect of our general health on our moods. In scripture, one thinks with the heart. “As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he,” Jesus says, and the word is not “mind” mistranslated. It’s heart. This is consistent for the usage of “heart” throughout scripture. I get the sense in studying the uses throughout the various passages that “heart” and “spirit” are very interconnected and perhaps synonymous.
God speaks to us in our hearts/spirits. This is not an organ discoverable by scientific means, and if science be god to a man, that man will not believe that a man can have a heart/spirit such as I’m describing. This is of little consequence to me. I would not expect the spiritual dimension to be detectable via scientific inquiry, and if such a thing WERE detected, I would say it was a part of the natural man that we had only just discovered, NOT an artifact of his spiritual aspect. The way I see it (and I am open to my opinions being corrected or modified by spiritual women and men, or even by natural, to a lesser degree (God speaks to all of us; we do not all recognize His voice as His own)) is as follows:
The “wrong tree” is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the TOKOGE). It represents independence. Independence is inferior, imo, to the interdependence of a loving community. One may be forced to fall back on independence, absent community, absent Father God, but this is not a good situation. We were made for one another, and we were made for our Father, our Elder Brother, our dear Holy Spirit (who are also Community, intuitively enough.) Our relationship to our God is necessarily one of dependence. We depend on Him; He does not depend on us, and so will it always be.
Please let me be clear though – KNOWLEDGE is not bad. Knowledge is a good thing, gotten through the right channels and understood in truth. Ideally, knowledge of GOOD is sufficient. If we were to concentrate on the good, we would have no need of the knowledge of evil for it would never occur to us to do that which is NOT good. We would desire only to do the best we could to all those we loved and they would desire and do the same – and we would all love one another and be loved, and love our God and reflect the love He shines on us. This is the true light of which physical light is but a rather two-dimensional portrait. Maybe somewhere, in some other dimension or world or far-lying part of our own universe, there lives a tribe of beings who DID choose love and life over individuality and private, self-gotten knowledge. Alas that we are not that tribe of beings. But I digress. Knowledge in itself is a good thing. It is the desire to have one’s own knowledge, with its source in oneself and its promise of power over one’s fellow beings and independence from them and from God, that is an evil thing.
The tree of life (TOL) feeds the spirit/heart with all the knowledge of the universe and of all worlds, but mostly of our God and the love of our God toward us and all creation(s). This is knowledge beyond the prison of our senses – knowledge from the very heart/mind of God – knowledge that does not come from warfare or selfishness or even intellectual stimulation, but from pure love and light and life. This is the sort of knowledge that IS oneness, enlightenment, ecstasy. This is the goal of the mystics and the consummation of the journey we all make homeward. True knowledge, and not the poor faded, dull, threadbare, beggarly thing we call “fact.” That is only a superficial description of how a thing seems to our senses, lacking all the shiningness of it, all the true glory. Yet for all this, the partial knowledge is lovely, and a lovely thing in its place, so long as one does not mistake for the truth that which is but a shadow and a type of the truth. The true knowledge comes only through the heart/spirit of a person, from the Spirit/heart of God – it is only in this that we can know even as we are known.
That is what I mean by the heart and not the mind being the true organ of thought. I’m not talking about the pump (though the pump itself shows fascinating signs of scientifically being far more that we have suspected). I’m talking about the spirit/heart which SHOULD be the master and the brain its lord high chancellor. It is ill when a servant rules, for the servant was not made to rule, and does not know HOW to rule – that the ruler must be servant of all. Instead the servant rules for his own benefit, forgetting that it is his duty as ruler to serve his subjects. The servant (the brain) is more shining, more magnificent, more true to its own glory, in serving its true master (the heart/spirit) by far than in serving its own mistaken ends.
I hope that’s clear enough, and that you understand what I’m trying to say. Please do ask if you have questions – I may be assuming knowledge that you haven’t yet picked up.
Blessings, Cindy
Not a bad view overall but one I cannot agree with. Neither did the Gnostic Christian version of Jesus.
This link, starting at about the 1.3 min. mark, shows what our Jesus thought. I give it not to change your thinking because my goal is to have you internalize your own beliefs and activate your third eye. I sell a method, not a theology. I give this link so that you might see the difference between how Christians discriminate against women while Gnostic Christians elevate women above men. Equality is good but we add on male duty to put children and women ahead of us. Something like the law of the sea on land. Women and children to the lifeboats first.
youtube.com/watch?v=XN_uLYJB … re=related
Regards
DL
P.S. My kingdom for your eloquence. If I had your gift, I would gain way more converts.
Unfortunately, I am too poorly educated. Being French does not help either.
“Our relationship to our God is necessarily one of dependence. We depend on Him; He does not depend on us, and so will it always be.”
This is true. In my blunt style, I say that God is to be our slave and not us his as the Christian text indicates. Slave to sin or slave to God is their view. As if man had anything that God would want. His desire for contact from us has no price that we must pay other than our desire to find him. Her in your case.
Seek your Goddess within. She has faith in you.
Regards
DL
GB,
Thanks for your kind words and your thoughtful reply, and for your efforts in translating your thoughts into English. Something for all us native English speakers to keep in mind, and remember to ask if we think we may be misunderstanding you.
I found your clip on the GoM interesting. The thing is, I already was aware that MM was no prostitute, that Jesus was anointed twice; once by the woman whom Simon the Pharisee deemed “unclean” and once by Mary of Bethany at the house of Simon the Leper (probably their father). I know that Jesus is said to have driven nine demons out of MM, and I see no reason to dispute this nor any reason to condemn MM for needing this ministry any more than if she had been cured of breast cancer. The scriptures never (that I can remember) denigrate the victims of demon possession except for Jesus’ statement that a man who has a demon driven out and does not fill his “house” (presumably with the HS) will make his last state worse than his first. This doesn’t apply to MM. I don’t disagree with any of the conclusions regarding the “place of women” at all. I don’t find it unlikely that MM acted as an apostle, though the scriptures I recognize say nothing of it. Junia is mentioned by Paul as an apostle, so certainly why not one of Jesus’ close female disciples? We hear about those who wrote documents of one sort or another, and of those they interacted with and happened to mention. It doesn’t follow that there wouldn’t have been many others who simply didn’t happen to be mentioned in any surviving documents.
The GoM is of course late, is very Gnostic, and is (like the other GGs) lamentably fragmentary. Not the fault of the GoM of course, but much has had to be supplied from reason and imagination to cause it to make coherent sense. I don’t believe one needs to have some special hidden knowledge in order to relate to God. How do you see the unenlightened as having salvation, GB? I thought Gnostics were big on knowledge being the key to salvation – maybe I’m misinformed?
Regarding my remark that we all hear God’s voice; we do not all recognize it as such, I have to stick to that. I understand (intimately) what you mean by KNOWING God’s voice when you experience it. I’m not sure how you’re defining apotheosis so I won’t claim to have experienced that, but I have had my moments of intense union with God – if that’s what you’re talking about – not nearly as much as I would like, but a little does go a very, very long way toward sustaining a thirsting spirit, however much we would love to drink in His presence at that level of purity and power always. That said, I know God’s voice also as the quiet whisper, easily missed if one is not attending. I believe we all experience that from time to time, and some who have never known Him by His name yet respond to His voice better than many who have had that privilege.
Will have a look at your other clip presently.
Blessings, Cindy
Thanks for the reply Cindy.
“Jesus is said to have driven nine demons out of MM, and I see no reason to dispute this”
Do you believe in literal demons, Satan and a talking serpent?
Or do you think that demon here means more of a sinful nature?
Do you believe that Jesus literally calmed the waters or is that an esoteric reference to how humanity is water and esoteric Jesus is being described as a peace-maker?
“I don’t believe one needs to have some special hidden knowledge in order to relate to God.”.
Neither do I. All I did was argue against the God Christianity offered and then I had my apotheosis. I have nor had any special knowledge. I was just an avid seeker.
“How do you see the unenlightened as having salvation, GB?”
I am a Universalist and know that none of us are ever lost to God. That is his will. None of us have ever been condemned. How could God possibly condemn that which he has created perfect?
Matthew 7:17
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Christians would have us think that God, the good tree, — produced corrupt fruit.
If you believe scriptures that say God is perfect that is.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
If you believe this quote and others like it then please have faith in what God says. Most Christians have too little faith in the word of God and would rather listen to the clergy that has their hands in the pockets of those they have conned into believing their lies.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
“I’m not sure how you’re defining apotheosis”
Please just think of it as finding yourself on Jacob’s ladder and having God speak to you from above.
“I know God’s voice also as the quiet whisper”
Yours must be a purer heart than mine was. God was quite loud to me. My apotheosis lasted perhaps 5 or 6 seconds and I spent the time crying both tears of pleasure and of pain. This is a telepathic contact and those at depth are quite intense. What prompted me to believe my experience as true is that my only other telepathic experience, — not that long before the one with the Godhead, — was with my wife. I touched her mind for just the one second or so and made her cry. She later called it an assault. If I did not have her to confirm our experience, I would not give any veracity to my second with the Godhead.
Regards
DL
GB,
I don’t have a need to literally interpret Jesus’ ministry regarding the exorcism accounts, and am undecided as to the literal personhood of demons and the devil. I lean toward seeing them as personal beings simply because I see no reason not to. If God could create us, why would we think Him unable to create an angelic race, or if demons are the fallen remnant of some other sort of beings, why should He not have created them too? I do believe that if these creatures of the spiritual world are more than symbolic and/or personifications, they too must eventually come to salvation in order to fulfill God’s promise to save all. Perhaps part of the reason evil has been allowed to linger so long in this world is a part of God’s ministry of teaching to such disobedient and miserable spirits. I don’t know. People here are divided as to our perception of the meaning of angels, fallen angels, demons and the devil.
Whether or not Jesus’ ministry of deliverance included actual casting out of demons, or deliverance from mental illness, seizure disorders, Turrets, or some other disorder that could have been interpreted as demonic, I see no shame in needing deliverance from it and no shadow over MM’s character for having had need of it – that was my point more than a statement on the nature of the demonic in scripture, but it’s always an interesting discussion. We’ve had it here a number of times.
I wouldn’t describe my “apotheoses” as telepathic experiences, though I suppose that’s an acceptable explanation if it works for you. I don’t know how to describe this experience. The first time I connected with God in this way it was wholly unexpected. Our bedroom is just off the kitchen (it’s an old house) and I was tired one evening while I was preparing supper so I laid down for a few minutes while I waited for it to be time for the next step. I was just resting, and it was as if a weightless blanket of indescribable love settled on me. I wouldn’t describe any pain, but tears, yes, though not sobs. I couldn’t move or I wouldn’t move (not sure which). This lasted for maybe fifteen minutes – again, I’m not sure, and am only judging by the length of time I had expected to be able to rest. I have no words to describe this incredibly intense experience. Ever since then I’ve been able to recall it (with less intensity) anytime I quiet my mind and concentrate on Him, on receiving His love. Not much to talk about, but it sure changed my life.
Your link to the documentary about telepathy was interesting. I’m always a bit skeptical of that sort of thing as there’s so much pseudo science out there. That said, whether or not the experiments are credible, I do believe we humans have latent mental powers we can only dream of, and that once we are safe (and not a danger) to one another, those powers can begin to be developed.
Regarding your comments on our being created “perfect,” I have to disagree. In the Genesis myth, Adam and Eve are created innocent, while perfection requires maturity. A person can be innocent and still have a VERY long way to go to reach perfection. I believe we have evolved into what we are and that at some point we became conscious and capable of receiving and understanding communications of God to our spirits and our minds. On partaking from the TOKOGE (symbolically) we became capable of knowing right from wrong, but we received this knowledge while remaining incapable of acting on it. We knew the good and did the evil and so lost our innocence (formerly maintained by our lack of knowledge of good and evil). We who are now sentient and conscious (those of us who are in reasonably good mental health) desire to do the good, but we inevitably end up doing things we hate ourselves for. The TOL for me symbolizes Jesus and our need to partake of Him via the HS in order to be made perfect and able to obey the good and reject the evil. In our own strength we cannot do this. That is why the TOKOGE is the wrong tree. Only by partaking of the life of God can we be made perfect AND innocent. That’s my take on it anyway.
I haven’t studied Gnosticism much, GB. Is your belief in universal salvation typical of modern and/or ancient Gnostics? If Gnosticism doesn’t elevate and require special knowledge (as I’ve been taught), then what specifically IS Gnosticism (both generally and specifically in your own eyes)?
Thanks!
Cindy
Hi Cindy
You mention ridding the world of evil. You forget that it is the tree of both good and evil intertwined.
If God wanted a tree of good and one of evil, he would have created them. Let’s just thank God Eve ate of it. As that hymn says; happy fault and necessary sin.
I am disappointed that you have such little faith that you cannot perceive the perfection God creates through nature.
Strange. One would think that an omni-potent God could follow the logic of those biblical quotes that you rejected.
“I haven’t studied Gnosticism much, GB. Is your belief in universal salvation typical of modern and/or ancient Gnostics? If Gnosticism doesn’t elevate and require special knowledge (as I’ve been taught), then what specifically IS Gnosticism (both generally and specifically in your own eyes)?”
Yes. Gnostics have always been Universalists. Probably the roots of Catholics which means universal.
Gnosticism elevates but does not require special knowledge. One must be a free thinker though. We are goats, not sheep, even though we do use Jesus and his lost sheep story to show why we are Universalists.
Your last relates to elevation.
It is an elevation to a more moral way of thinking.
Note that the U.N. rules of equality and negative discrimination shame all the Abrahamic cults except for Gnostic Christians.
If you believe in equality then I need say no more. That is why Constantine’s Christians killed us.
Regards
DL
GB,
You abbreviate inappropriately. It is NOT the tree of good and evil, but of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. We wrongly elevate our ability to collect, assimilate, and make use of knowledge over the infinitely greater value of LIFE, of which the true variety comes only from God. Knowledge is NOT bad, but is a good thing, just as a loyal servant (such as your trusty horse, for example) is a very good thing – unless the horse is in charge – then I can tell you from intensely personal experience, it is a very bad thing indeed, not only for you, but ultimately for the horse as well.
And no, I do not thank God that Eve ate from the TOKOGE. While I’m sure He had a good idea of what was likely to happen, knowing Eve, knowing Adam (who was with her), and knew what it would cost Him to correct this persistent mistake of our race, IMO God had nothing to do with Eve choosing that tree, so it would make no sense to credit Him with that event. I wish it had been otherwise. I believe our race would have advanced much, much, much faster if the more advantageous choice (eating from the Tree of Life) had been selected. And you have already advised me to thank God for this catastrophe – this is twice – remember you only instruct your prospective “pupils” once, according to your message to me.
That said, thanks for sharing your understanding of Gnosticism. I appreciate that. I’m not sure whether your understanding is historically correct or a more modern innovation, but it doesn’t matter really, since I’m primarily interested in how YOU understand it.
Blessings, Cindy
You say knowledge is all important yet say that A & E made a mistake by choosing knowledge and becoming as Gods with their moral sense.
What is wrong with becoming as Gods?
As you say, God would have known about it all in advance and if he did not want it to happen, he would have stopped it before having to murder A & E by neglect and locking away what would keep them alive. The tree of life. Right?
Why do you prefer the Christian version of a fall over the original Jewish version of man’s elevation?
Regards
DL
GB,
I don’t think I did say knowledge was all important. I don’t have time to look back over the things I’ve written, but I can’t imagine ever saying such a thing. Would you mind showing me where that was? And I don’t think I said I believe in the fall either. I believe this is a story about what people chose to do (not necessarily just one original couple). It’s a story about what people are ALWAYS choosing to do. It’s specifically about Israel and what they chose to do (since this is Israel’s scriptures and their understanding of it would have correctly had these scriptures especially applying to their own particular nation). As to why God would bar their entrance to the garden, that is a bit deeper question.
I’ll post this for now – hubby just drove up, so I’ll get back to you . . .
NR, it seems that the Nicene Creed underwent quite a few changes. Here is what I think to have been the original. The first part is identical to the one you posted, but it appears that the last part of yours may have been added later.
While Trinitarians accepted the original creed in 325 A.D., later Trinitarians changed the words “begotten of the Father before all ages” to “eternally begotten of the Father” in order to be consistent with Trinitarianism.