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Even Augustine taught post-mortem salvation

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#21

I remember a quote I once read from St. Augustine, where he said something to the effect that he did not wish to end all discussion on sense the meaning of the term eternal (aionian) punishment."

I think his exact words were “as to the sense in which punishment might be said to be eternal,” but I might be wrong.

Could anyone help me locate it?

It would be interesting if he wrote that after he wrote the comments in his “The City of God” (particularly sense he’s known to have changed his views on some things, like his interpretation of Matt. 16;19.)

#22

Has anyone been able to credibily confirm (with authrotiy backing and a clear quote) that Augustine believed post-mortem salvatio was possible? I’d like to be able to add him to my list of those who deny traditional hellism if I can (and put him under post-mortem salvationists).

#23

I’m pretty sure the quotes given above (which are greatly helpful) would fit into a consistent Augustinian concept of purgatory being offered for those who have already “merited” it by means of induction into the Christian Church. That the eternal fire and condemnation (or “damnation” as the translation gives it) would be applied to them as well, wouldn’t obviate the point: they were substantially saved before post-mortem punishment.

#24

I suspected as much (shame) - thanks for the calrification Jason. So basically, Augustine held that some believers/Christians /baptised would go through purgatory before heaven, but didn’t hold that non-believers etc. had any sort of sceond-chance after death.

#25

Right. Essentially the Roman Catholic position since then (if not before).

Augustine doesn’t seem to have been all that fond of the notion that the torments of the damned might be lessened either, but he grudgingly allowed the possibility through prayers of the faithful (not through any primary action by God).

Roman Catholic doctrine could in theory allow, however, for all the damned to eventually enter limbo through repentance (and prayers of the faithful etc.), which would be equivalent to the best pagan notions of paradise, possibly even including social communion with the saints, just without any communion with God (i.e. no communion of the saints)–which would still be a permanently hopeless grief to them, though the minimum hopeless grief possible under the circumstances.

#26

Are you sure Jason, what about my Augustine quotes above? :confused:

#27

“For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it.”

He’s talking about the purification of people already being saved by Christ in communion with the Church, and that’s the context wherein he goes on to talk about how some people will have to still be punished by the eternal fire after the general resurrection: some come out of purgatory before the resurrection, some after.

In your quote from the Enchiridion, Augustine says about prayers for the dead by the pious, “But these means benefit only those who, when they were living, have merited that such services could be of help to them. …] Therefore, let no one hope to obtain any merit with God after he is dead that he has neglected to obtain here in this life.” The merit Augustine was talking about involves good deeds done in the context of having already been saved into the Church; Augustine of all people wasn’t talking about meriting being saved in the first place!

What Augustine allows is that a person outside the Church might do enough good to merit reduction of suffering in hell, not full forgiveness (which is reserved for those being regenerated by Christ); but his position requires him to deny that God will not originate such mercy – God requires being convinced to give such (limited) mercy (but not salvation) by virtue of those who pray for the unsaved dead.

His reference in the De Anima follows suit: if Perpetua’s tale was accurate, that (for Augustine) means the boy must have been baptized and even in a confessionary manner. After all, she doesn’t say he wasn’t baptized, thus Augustine speculates that he entered into saving communion young but was afterward led astray by his father earning what would have been moral condemnation (but wasn’t because he had already been saved into Christ).

#28

, Dr Taylor Marshall"]Did Church Fathers other than Saint Gregory the Great teach Purgatory? You betcha.

The Acts of Paul and Thekla, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, St Cyprian, St Basil, St Gregory Nyssa, St Ephraem, St Jerome, and St Augustine – all taught purgatory.

Remember, the Jews pray for the dead and the early Church carried over this OT practice.

Here’s Saint Augustine on purgatory:

#29

Actually, since you did bring of Augustine, City of God is a very interesting work to read.

#30

aioni = eon = “age-period”, and not world, which is in Greek “kosmon” or “Kosmos”. Hre the Greek uses eon (age) to designate the AGE (dispensation) period before the Cross, and the one immediately following - maybe ending at Pentacost, where the third eon,from His period,starts with the indwelling Holy Spirit - Grace period - which surey allows each and ALL to come to repentance. Jesuswas not “cutting them off” forever, as many think, but pointing out that it will take time - the age He was in, the period of time that follows, and into/ with the beginning of the next, before these blasphemers could have access to grace. the verse reads as follows: “And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be |pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy *spirit, it shall not be |pardoned him, neither in this *eon nor in *that which is impending.” (CLV translation)

#31

St. Augustine’s arguements fail when the truth of the word “eternal” is properly understood as “Age-Abiding”. The supposed eternal fire for thew damned is the same purifying fire as for the ones saved “so as by fire.” There are NOT two fires, but one! Roman Latin theology makes me want to puke.