The Evangelical Universalist Forum

On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

This “could” involve postmortem BUT it does necessitate it… remember, according to Mt 16:27-28 the gain or loss of rewards at the parousia didn’t require physical death – “some standing here” were to be alive and “remaining” (1Thess 4:15) i.e., surviving through this historical/covenantal EVENT. WHAT such rewards looked like and HOW such rewarding transpired we simple are not told. However John does refer “to him that overcomes will I grant…” etc, which appears more relational than tangible in terms of “reward” – which IF that was the case would be in-line with Jesus’ previous definitive definition of “eternal life” being NOT quantitative endless existence BUT qualitative relational LIFE, as per Jn 17:3; 10:10b et al; IOW… blessedness of life in the here and now.

But that aside and to be clear… from the pantelist perspective there was great “loss” in the fires of AD70, which by the way weren’t restricted to the Jewish Capitol, but the 1Cor 3:15 passage refers specifically to “believers” i.e., the justified and there was/is NO ‘hades’ then or thereafter for them to be in torments in – the notion is simply false.

As a pantelist “the lake of fire” doesn’t exist. John’s ‘the lake of fire’ equates to Jesus’ ‘Gehenna’ i.e., the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. This was Israel’s (Jerusalem’s) “second death” aka “lake of fire” – the first death being Nebuchadnezzar’s 587BC rout and ruination of the same.

Remember John’s ‘Revelation’ was “symbolic” – it was “signified” (Rev 1:1) – by way of signs <ἐσήμανεν esēmanen> (symbol i.e., picture-words) of “things which must shortly take place.

As I understand it the contrast is indeed between “the sheep” (faithful) and “the goats” (unfaithful) Israel, being demonstrated in those who did and those who didn’t escape the perilous times of Jerusalem’s fall (this of course included broader Palestine and beyond in terms of Roman clamp down on Jewish insurrectionists, of which early Jewish believers were considered of a similar mold, i.e., not confessing “Caesar is Lord” but “Jesus is Lord”).

What do you conclude is (was) the difference in experience, and what informs your thoughts on this?

I am enjoying this interchange!

Thanks guys !!!

Ok fair enough… so then on what biblical grounds do you extrapolate such, i.e., what texts of scripture justify this for you?

Yeah ok… BUT how have you come to set just those parameters alone? I can see the likes of “corrective punishment” in terms of THIS LIFE as they are plain in scripture, BUT beyond… again what’s your textual evidence?

As I understand it… texts that are “interpreted” along ECT lines in fact refer to Gehenna aka Jesus’ prophetic judgments relative to the AD70 DoJ. I agree 100% with “annihilation” IF and I repeat IF annihilation refers and relates purely to the physicality of man’s existence, no more no less, and as such has NO bearing beyond the physical realm… “do X and LIVE or do Y and DIE”.

IMO ‘the doctrine’ of “annihilationism” as typically understood is as biblically bereft as “infernalism” – and BOTH share the same base belief of a torturous hades postmortem; the ONLY difference after this is an one’s end destiny. BOTH IMO are as corrupt as the other.

Questions for Dave and Gaz:

Why do we have to look at the eternal option as ETC? Why not the Joshua Ryan Butler exile approach? He supports his view with scripture
See (in the The Mercy of Hell? A Review of The Skeletons in God’s Closet (Part 1))

More on this in the interview Facing the Skeletons in God’s Closet and the Hope of Holy War; Joshua Ryan Butler in The Skeletons in God’s Closet: The Mercy of Hell, the Surprise of Judgment.

Why does annihilation need to be painful? Suppose God becomes all-in-all and and folks experience God’s love, according to the Eastern Orthodox view of states of being. Maybe folks experience God’s love and bliss - before ceasing to exist. Much like taking a drug and feeling good - but having an overdose (i.e. similar to the “artificial” reality in the Matrix movies).

Well I DON’T. I reject Catholicism’s ‘Dantēs’ Inferno’ which the reformers kept for their own machinations.

In biblical times, and THAT’S the context of my supposition, annihilation was only as painful as to the means physical death was inflicted, e.g., lopping one’s head off with a sword… relatively painless; crucifixion or stoning… gruesomely painful.

Before I answer your next questions… can you PLEASE deal with mine (as I asked) and give some textual evidence for WHY you believe as you do? Not philosophical argument but scriptural texts?

NO.

Those “outside” were specific to that era in terms of the ones called or not called relative to ministering in the outworking to fullness of God’s redemptive plan… basically those clinging to the OC mode of law-righteousness.

As a pantelist I understand…
“The Church” is NOT the “the Kingdom” – the “church” constitutes the priestly-servants OF the Kingdom.

The ‘KINGDOM’ is the DOMAIN of God – is there any place beyond the reach of God’s sovereign reign? (Psa 139:7-8; Jer 23:24)

The ‘CITY / TEMPLE’ is the SPIRITUAL HUB of the kingdom – wherein the priests of God dwell. (Rev 5:9-10; 22:2)

The ‘COVENANT’ is the LANGUAGE of the kingdom – that which communicates best the Divine intents of the kingdom i.e., ‘love God by loving thy neighbour’. (Mk 12:33; Rom 13:8-10; Jas 2:8)

There are many non-citizens (non-believers) in His Kingdom – naturalised citizens (believers) are mandated to minister God’s message of reconciling grace through witness and worship and works to those lacking this knowledge. The essence of evangelism per se is about bringing those “outside” in terms of knowledge of grace “inside” where the true blessedness of citizenry in this life (Rom 5:17) is found. The essence then of the Gospel is NOT about the avoidance of some supposed postmortem calamity (which seems to be the goal of most infernalists and many universalists). No, the essence of the Gospel is about finding and coming into the blessed fullness of LIFE in Christ in this life (Jn 10:10).

Let me put it similarly…
In all probability there would be many people in the US who reject or “don’t believe in Obama” either apathetically or more contentiously, but their non-belief or rejection in no way stops Obama being THEIR ‘president’… the same rings true with some people’s attitude towards God and the FACT that HE remains by virtue of Creator/created, THEIR God.

Likewise, there are many “non-citizens” in the US living under the same relative peace therein as regular citizens. There are however benefits to “citizenship” not known by “non-citizens”. (I know that’s a less than perfect example given most ‘illegals’ would probably jump at the chance of ‘full membership’ but I’m sure you can see my point.)

Again… the CHURCH is NOT the KINGDOM, but rather the SPIRITUAL HUB of the DOMAIN of God. Remember… “the kingdom” i.e., the right to rule/serve therein, was “taken from” the “congregation in the wilderness” (Acts 7:38) and given to a new people who would accomplish what the former in faithlessness relinquished (Mt 21:43).

So… from my perspective the whole “who’s in or who’s out” had/has NOTHING to do with positions in postmortem paradise (heaven), but EVERYTHING to do with WHO has been called into SERVICE of God and as such is proactive as opposed to reactive. Jesus said… “many are called, but few are chosen” – NOT for position in heaven in the hereafter BUT for purpose in service in the here and now.

What makes you think your “unrepentant sinners” wouldn’t immediately drop in a heartbeat to the knee in awe-inspired reverence at the brightness of His majesty and presence? Any latent doubt or chaos on behalf of so-called ‘unbelievers’ would evaporate in a flash, IMO.

Hi David,

Nice post.

You said,
“What makes you think your “unrepentant sinners” wouldn’t immediately drop in a heartbeat to the knee in awe-inspired reverence at the brightness of His majesty and presence? Any latent doubt or chaos on behalf of so-called ‘unbelievers’ would evaporate in a flash, IMO.”

I am in agreement there. I have kind of thought along those lines for a while.

I do have a question, could you possibly explain what a pantelist believes regarding the difference between inclusion as opposed to the idea of universalism. You’ve posted that idea before and I would like to hear how you explain it. I have a feeling you were touching on it above, but I might be mistaken.

Thanks
Chad

Hey Chad… :mrgreen:

How about this from ** earlier in the thread… **

Does that make sense?

Hi David.
It makes sense to me.

As for myself, I came to the same conclusion as you stated above, once I ‘became’ a full preterist. I guess I just thought that there were possibly ‘degree’s’ or different beliefs of universalist’s. Much like partial preterist’s can draw their line where ever their eschatological view dictates, universalists can see punishment / wrath in many different ways. Unitarian Universalists not withstanding, I guess I never realized there was a ‘typical’ belief for universalists, though it does seem most universalists do seem to believe in some sort of postmortem punishment. It also seems to me that most (I’ll use the term ‘evangelical’) universalists believe that everyone will ultimately end up at the throne of Christ, but there are a bunch of different ideas about what happens on the way there.

So basically it is an issue of terminology imposed by ideology?

Does that make sense?

So I guess my next question is (and it may be on your web page as I have not looked at all the material there) What is the history of Pantelism?

Well, Maintenance Man. I don’t think there really is a “recorded, written” history. Else, I would have seen it expanded upon in the Wiki and Theopedia sources:

Pantelism - Wiki
Pantelism - theopedia

Of course, Davo or someone else here, might know something the experts left out.

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon6383.png

Pretty recent. For about 10yrs I was a partial prêterist before realising it or even much hearing the term. In 1999 I came across a couple of innocuous little footnotes (p. 264, 531) in David Chilton’s partial prêt masterpiece ‘Days of Vengeance’ referring to a Max R. King and his “insightful and frustrating” work ‘The Spirit of Prophecy’. Chilton (at that time) considered King’s ideas as “heretical” but in subsequent years before his death came to embrace the view more fully. King refers to his own prêteristic approach as ‘Covenant Eschatology’.

Having my interests summarily intrigued I jumped online and found their website and started exploring/dialoguing etc. It started to gel for me and it wasn’t too long before I grasped the implications of ‘covenant eschatology’ (full prêterism) rather excitedly exclaiming “this changes everything!”… I haven’t looked back since. For me the simple but BIG revelation came when I grasped the reality that “end of the world/age” did NOT mean THE END OF our time-space universe but rather THE END OF the Mosaic world/age of OC Judaism – THAT for me changed everything, in particular HOW I was reading NT eschatology.

Subsequent to this I started noticing a number of inclusive conclusions latent within full prêterism when it was taken to its own logical conclusions, mainly the grace of God encompassing all regardless of “professed belief”. In 2002 I put together my own website ‘pantelism.com’ promoting my inclusive prêterism, having contended for the consistent inclusive nature of prêterism much to the irascibility of my fellow prêts who kept in derision labeling me a “universalist”.

So on prêterist sites I tend to be a dirty universalist and on universalist sites an annoying prêterist! :mrgreen:

As to the moniker “pantelism”… at the time one vocal Calvinist prêterist (Sam Frost) published a book where he refutes certain anti-full prêterist assertions and arguments made by a Jonathin C. Seraiah in his book, who in criticising full prêterism refers to it in rather pejorative terms as “a pantelist interpretation” – a Gk. term meaning “all is fulfilled”. I particularly liked to term as opposed to ‘prêterist’ and found its origin in Heb 7:25 (Lk 13:11) where pantelēs <παντελὲς> (pan = all + telos = consummated) is rendered “uttermost”. From my perspective I am applying “the uttermost” or “completely” as having encompassed ALL prophetic AND redemptive history; which I understand to be the outcome of a CONSISTENT prêterism… thus pantelism.

There has been over the years a handful of folk who in gravitating to the inclusive side of prêterism likewise loosely embraced the moniker as well, although there is no fixed creed to it as such. From my perspective pantelism per se is somewhat fluid and evolving.

Well, Thank you David! I believe you are treading new waters :smiley: :smiley:

For me the crux of the issue is perspective, and I’ve lately been working on a new perspective, or what I call ‘Lens’

I know a little about Chilton and DeMar, though I have gravitated towards the full preterist perspective, I admit I have some problems with Preston and Stevens, as well as some others who claim full preterism. Which is why I asked you about your inclusion posts.

I tend towards a covenant (fully realized) preterest view with an understanding that belief in Christ is still relevant today!

Which is why I found Pantelism interesting.

I did just receive Jonathin Seraiah’s book, ‘The End Of All Things’, and look forward to reading it though I am a little at odds with R C Sproul on quite a few points… Not sure where this will land but these folks are obviously partial preterist’s. Jonathin’s perspective may be a tad skewed… We’ll see :smiley:

I listened and studied quite a bit of his (R C Sproul) material when I studied Calvinism, and I think he truly believes what he says, but… :unamused:

No offence intended.

I am in agreement with the Idea of covenant eschatology, and I have a great expectation of God’s plan and love for us in the new covenant.

Keep up the good work, though many throw rubbish at you! :smiley: :smiley:

Chad

Thanks Chad! :slight_smile:

Yep I’m all for a “belief in Christ is still relevant today” view… I’ve just moved beyond ‘evangelicalism’ for my understanding in that; and prêterism aka ‘covenant eschatology’ led me in that direction. For mine I say pantelism is beyond both prêterism and universalism.

Seraiah’s book ‘The End Of All Things’ is the one Frost responds to. I haven’t read Seraiah’s s book. Both he and Sproul are partial prêts, or as full prêts would say “inconsistent” prêterists :wink:. And I must admit I still have Sproul’s ‘Last Days According to Jesus’ on my shelf from 1999 having only read the first 2 chapters. :astonished:

As for the mud-slinging… I’m in no way persecution-minded… lol, I tend to give as good as I get and I really don’t mind a bit of robust interaction, if you can believe that. :smiling_imp:

It is clear I’m saying… ALL are under the DOMAIN of God, i.e., He is sovereign OVER all, regardless of belief. What then are YOU saying, please explain?

So what “works” would you recommend “Christians” DO to ensure peace-of-mind that they will indeed “enter the kingdom” following the narrow scope your interpretation affords?

What seems “philosophically absurd” is that you could read such an excuse of an objection back into what I’ve said as a pretence to disagreeing with me… by all means disagree BUT don’t invent rubbish and then attribute such to me – that’s “absurd”. The likes of Psa 139:7-8; Jer 23:24 stand well with the point I made and NOWHERE dates-wise on the historical clock could any of it be less other than the passing of any said place, for example… a postmortem torturous “hades” BUT which in OT parlance basically meant the grave i.e., death.

I’d like to see if ANYONE ELSE would agree with your bold assertion that… “Psalm 139 and Jeremiah 23 as evidence of a universal kingdom is a huge stretch.” In terms of the sovereign reach of God “a huge stretch… REALLY??

QUESTION: “Have you stopped beating your wife lately… YES or NO?” – it’s a WRONG question reflecting a wrong-headed premise. The “goats” in question were Israel of the flesh (OC law righteousness). The sheep were Israel of the Spirit (NC grace)… Rom 2:29; Phil 3:3.

The EVERLASTING nature of the Parousaic “punishment” or “life” was QUALITATIVE i.e., the totality of destruction as per the ‘Roman-Jewish’ wars or the fullness life experienced “in Christ” – for a whole bunch of believers IN Jerusalem that also meant a miraculous escape right in the midst of the hostilities before the final overthrow and decimation of the Temple.

Like I said… EVERY knee will drop. And IF “those under the earth” isn’t a direct reference to the physically departed, i.e., “the dead” then I’d like to know to whom you ascribe such? IOW… there’s the scriptural evidence for it!

Nothing comes ‘immediately’ to mind but I’m sure Don K. Preston on youtube probably covers it somewhere.

Hey qaz,

Time to jump into the water yourself… There is mucho info about all this all over the internet, but to be honest, a dozen really good folks can tell you truth but if you do not want to look at it, to be honest, there is nothing to be gained. A paradigm shift has to happen. It is as simple as that.

Hope the best for you :smiley:

Chad

Hi qaz,

That is my point, that the preterist perspective is a process of study. It does not come easy but don’t let that shake your belief.

I would say that we should not question our beliefs, but question the things that would challenge our beliefs. If in fact, when you take a view, (in this case the preterist view), then you either believe it (it is your belief) consider it (you question it but it does not shake your belief until you are convinced through the HS that you will adopt it as a belief) or you consider it not to be regarded as to your belief system.

As to the text which you talked about, I found five different papers on the subject within about two minutes.

Here is Preston’s take on it.

There are a couple of different books of his he mentions in this article. Hope this helps.

Chad