The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How do you defend God's love against His other attributes?

I’ll be your huckleberry :slight_smile:

When the fulness of time had come God sent forth His Son…

Yes, the fulness of time in relation to the sending forth of the Son had come, so He was sent forth. “Who was foreknown from the foundation of the world and was manifested in these last times for you.” Peter “manifested” is a key word in understanding prophetic fulfillment.

Still much interpretation as to the application and meaning of the words- by no means obvious even to Peter…

“Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world” Acts 3

The heavens still receive Him. When he comes forth at the end of this age, the “epiphanea, parousia, apokalypsis” will be completed for this age but there will still be ages to come in the dispensation of the fulness(pleroma) of times, until the “manifestation” of the restoration of all things is complete. Pleroma is the same word as in “For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to himself by the blood of His cross”(Col 1) "filled up to all the fulness of God (Eph 3)

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

Ro 8:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Hoping for what we do not see is the very meaning of “eshcaton”(imo) as it is unveiled throughout the administration of it. which is ongoing until it has all “come down from heaven”, i.e. manifested.

It is finished, He has overcome, but that seed of restoration first filled the body of Jesus, then the body of Christ, ultimately the whole creation/cosmos including time. It has “times” yet in which to play out, therefore there is still an eschaton remaining, one for which the entire creation groans in eager anticipation,

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, *in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

What an eshcaton that is!

2 Tim 4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Jesus has appeared, is appearing and will appear. He was and is and is to come. Until all time is fulfilled/completed, there is an eschaton.

pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word: πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: (play’-ro-mah)
Short Definition: fullness, fulfillment, completion
Definition: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.

Time is being filled up, the receptacle for all of Gods works. If God rested from His works on the 7th day does that mean there was no more eshcaton? It could appear so taken out of whole cloth.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him,** then** shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is a when and a then and therefore there is an eshcaton.

God will become all in all, he has not yet, but the work is done in Chrst- I think on that we agree- “It is finished” in Christ, but is yet to appear in pleroma/fulness. That will occur through a dispensation of the fulness of time, the completion of the ages, and at the very least, there is an eschaton to the subjection of the last adversary, and God becoming all in all. As long as time remains there will be adversaries and they are being subjected, until every knee bows, in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

REV 5;11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13** And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.**

verse 13 being the fulfillment of Phil 2:9-11; Col 1:15-20; Eph 1:9-11; Rom 8:18-25; 1 Cor 15:22-28 and Romans 11:30-36

Clearly(to me anyway :slight_smile:) as long as there is a future, and that future having a point of closure in which God has become all and all, every enemy subjected, reconciled and restored- all gathered inbto one in love and light and life- there is a dispensation as yet not dispensed, an administration not yet complete, an eshcaton as yet unfulfilled in earth(as it is in heaven) - yet to “come down from heaven” but “coming” like the dawn grows into the fulness of mid-day.

oikonomia: stewardship, administration
Original Word: οἰκονομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikonomia
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kon-om-ee’-ah)
Short Definition: stewardship
Definition: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.

Eph 1:10 NIV to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment–to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
NAS an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

We are in the midst of a great administration. The plan set forth before the foundation of the world. The plan paid for and the resources secured when God sent forth His Son, the plan complete when God becomes all in all.*

Huckleberry

Q :What is the origin of the expression ‘I’ll be your Huckleberry’? What exactly does it mean?

A : What it means is easy enough. To be one’s huckleberry — usually as the phrase I’m your huckleberry — is to be just the right person for a given job, or a willing executor of some commission. Where it comes from needs a bit more explaining.
(for that interesting explanation, see: worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-huc1.htm)

:smiley: :smiley:

That huckle almost lost his berries :laughing:

I found another Huckleberry!

:laughing:

youtu.be/oVVt9aBNa1U
Another Huckleberry :slight_smile:

I’ve use this example before. If my young son played in the road I would tell him the dangers. If he continued, my punishment/wrath would become more severe until the lesson was learned to stay out of the street.

No… you are losing the wood for the trees. The fullness of time was in relation to Israel’s redemption… thus accordingly the Son was sent forth to procure this.

So… you have Jesus coming back and yet STILL MORE to happen BEFORE or UNTIL an apparent ““manifestation” of the restoration of all things is complete.” – it’s bizarre that no texts say this; this is “interpretation” driving to the text.

It might well be you opinion but THAT is not the meaning of eschaton.

The NT believers “hoped” for what they DIDN’T have BECAUSE they, unlike us, were living in the pre-parousia age, i.e., before “the end”. The writer of Proverbs says this…

Futurism of any flavour always leaves the heart sick because it’s still waiting for redemption to be complete i.e., it promotes an incomplete deficient redemption, that is, it is NOT finished… bad news! No wonder the modern church is sick. I’d like a dollar for every bemoan I’ve heard… “Oh I just wish Jesus would come back and rescue us out of this evil of a world.” <<-- losers! The more we can see that this is God’s good world and that helping people see that He believes IN THEM the sooner we’ll be more effective at neutralising the evils of errant men. People tend to do angry things ultimately because they believe God is angry at them… religianity hasn’t helped in this error.

Ahh no… :ugeek: so Christ’s work is all done, but somehow :question: :question: God is NOT “all in all”… how logically and biblically does that work? – it doesn’t.

As I understand it… God is NOW “all in all” BECAUSE Jesus having reigned and defeated death handed it all over to the Father.

Now, before anyone foolishly chimes in with an ill thought through “All in all, O’ so God is already in all the evil people on this planet, yeah good one!” – to every “Christ in you” confessing Christian – ever done anything sinful or dare I say “evil” – is Christ still in you?? Now THAT might sound a tad harsh, but sometimes the lazy fundamentalist reactionary mind needs challenging.

“The death” (1Cor 15) Jesus defeated on behalf of humanity was spiritual death i.e., relational or covenantal death. That’s the ‘death’ Adam died “the day” he ate… you will recall Adam lived “physically” a tad longer than “for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Remember… Jesus spoke of the kingdom not in terms of physicality but rather “within” or “among you” – those who had eyes to see it grasped it.

The line of this topic :laughing: Thank you all

Val

They don’t need defending. :smiley:

If they died only a spiritual death, why did God shut them out of the Garden, lest they return and eat from the Tree of Life and live forever? Wouldn’t God want them to live forever spiritually? After all, didn’t Jesus come that people might have (spiritual) life and have it more abundantly?

Rather, didn’t God keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden to prevent them from returning to the garden and eat from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn’t live forever PHYSICALLY in their sinful condition?

I think the meaning is, “In the day you eat of it, the death process will surely begin in you.”

It might be compared to a doctor today saying to a cancer patient, “When you take radiation, the cancer cells will surely die.” The doctor doesn’t mean that the cancer cells will die the moment or even the day when the patient takes radiation, but rather will BEGIN to die at that time."

Sorry Valliant… just finishing off some thoughts with Paidion.

This here I think is the nub of the issue… that they could have access to the Tree of Life and “live forever” logically dictates that physical death, i.e., biological demise was ALREADY present and a natural part of the created order.

Had A & E partaken of the Tree of Life in their now fallen state SIN would have been immortalised and man screwed. We all sin, it’s natural… Paul said “he who has died is freed from sin” and so it is we all die the physical death we were naturally meant to die. Prior to Jesus defeating (spiritual) death humanity at natural death was locked up in Hades (the grave) i.e., “no one has ascended to the Father”. Thus when Jesus ascended He led captivity (spiritual death) captive giving gifts (grace, liberty and life) to men.

Again, that physical pain and death was a natural part of the created order is a given, for whatever food they partook of (prior to their infraction) was in the process of biological demise (death) as it was sustaining them, i.e., giving them LIFE. Also… that’s Eve’s pain in conception/childbirth was “multiplied” is obviously indicative of the presence of pain pre-fall as well. As perfect in one sense that Eden was Christendom has magicallised paradise to something it logically never was.

Yes indeed Don, and that’s what the ensuing redemptive stories of Scripture are all about… Adam – Israel – Christ; undoing that spiritual/relational separation i.e., spiritual death.

Yes that always seems to be standard fair in attempting to juggle away what seems obvious from the text, but I find it most unconvincing IMO. Bible search the phrase “surely die” and you won’t find one text where the interpolation “you shall surely die” can have “begin” with any credibility squeezed into it… again IMO. “You shall surely die” was a direct executable judgment without any equivocation or doubt as to its certainty. It basically meant “from the moment you ____ you shall die” i.e., there will be no turning back.

This above although indeed referencing physical death would still be understood as executable via divine edict with reasonably short term effect, as opposed to living a long life full of begetting “sons and daughters” and finally dying at a ripe old age near a millennium later… that seems far from “in the day…”.

A & E sinned and from that “day” onward their spiritual relationship with God was fractured with the inevitable consequence being expulsion and exile (spiritual death) from His presence. Until Jesus rectified this Adam’s problem was humanity’s problem. This at least is how I’m presently understanding this scenario.

Another awesome thread i came across that deserves renewal :wink: :smiley:

Davo- Taking in all you say as far as the transition of the Covenants makes total sense, with Jesus saying * it is finished* as the piece de resistance!!! For me and some others though, why did Paul, James and John continue talking about sinners needing repentance since Jesus had accomplished it all?? Life has gone on a very long time now since the Parousia and a majority are not accepting and following Jesus. How do you see this reality fitting with everything having been accomplished??? When do you see God wrapping it all up and having everything restored back to before the first sin occurred?? I thoroughly enjoy your analysis and the style in which you share it mate. Just wanting to have you tie up some loose ends :sunglasses: :smiling_imp:

Hi Robert, just my 2 cents worth:

The eating of the fruit was a spiritual separation. What ever Adam and Eve did (in the eating of the fruit), it caused a spiritual gulf, not a physical one. I dare say if you saw Adam before he ate the fruit and after, you would not see any difference, in the fleshly sense, but a HUGE change did take place, and I think that from that moment on, God started working towards reconciliation. davo spoke of God’s command of on the day you eat you shall surly die, but they did not obviously die in the flesh. God even helped them out with their wardrobe :smiley:

So, in my thinking, this sin nature, the fleshly kind, is a part of our makeup, thus not only the continued talk about needing repentance for our fleshly ‘missing the mark’ but also the continued emphasis on love, for us to love all and especially the brethren. Thus many may have heard of Christ but choose not to acknowledge Him, yet.

And thus is the reason for the Ecclesia, with Christ the head and us the body! We are to tell the good news of this reconciliation that has happened!

Really is a story of good news.

I realize this isn’t going to cover the full horror of some kinds of sin, but–repentance means turning away from a thing. Wishing you hadn’t done it. Let’s say you’re trying to learn to shoot a bow and arrows. You make a shot; it goes too high; you repent of that shot and you change your aim in order to make a better shot. You continue these fine adjustments to both your knowledge and your physical skill until you can hit the target dead center more often than not. That takes a LOT of practice and a lot of repentance.

We’re all born as natural human beings, but God wants people who worship (draw near in affection) Him in spirit and in truth. He made the natural world and us natural humans and He said it was “very good,” but that doesn’t mean it was finished. We’re not finished. “He’s still workin’ on me,” you know. We’re developing and growing. We have lots of adjustments to make and as we make them, we repent of the wrong things we do. We didn’t do them (for the most part) because we wanted to sin. We now regret that we did them. Doing those things didn’t put the arrow through the bull’s eye. Maybe those things put the arrow through someone we love (or someone we hate), and we now realize that was a bad, very bad choice and we wish we hadn’t done that. So we repent and turn from that behavior. In our own flesh, we honestly do not have the power to refrain from messing up, but we died in Christ Jesus to the flesh and we now live by His life, though it isn’t we, but Christ who lives through us. Yet we still contend with the flesh, and we WILL contend with the flesh until that too is redeemed.

As someone once said in a sermon I heard, We are saved, We are being saved and we will be saved. There is a spiritual salvation and a soulish salvation and a physical salvation. The spiritual is accomplished already. The soulish is being accomplished. That’s the part where Father is conforming us to the image of His Son. The physical will not be complete until the resurrection. I’m not sure this all plays out exactly as the guy said, but it’s a useful picture, I think.

Hi Chad & Cindy- Great thoughts from you both thanks so much. I think you both cover the crux of the issues regarding our humanness but the call to holy sanctification as well. For me, what you say Cindy about being saved, continuing to be saved and finally completely saved is solid theology. A struggle i have though is obedience. John more than any other Bible author puts so much focus on obedience. He seems to include obedience/love as one and the same. Love is an action which is demonstrated in obedience to Gods commands. There are many verses in John and 1,2,3 John which continually put this focus on obedience as love. The thing that makes me knock my head on the wall like Jason previous in this thread :wink: is the reality that NONE of us are fully obedient, not even close. So, to those who interpret John as linking love/obedience, we never really fulfill the 2 greatest commandments ever and thus never love as God commands us too. I write this in a reflective way because to me, Jesus is the ON LY ONE who could ever be fully obedient and keep the whole law and is why we must take on His identity in faith so we can love as He did. What then do we do with Johns call for obedience?? How do you fit in James focus on faith showing itself in works also?? i know such easily answered questions eh?? :unamused: :sunglasses: This also makes me think of the whole notion of repentance as well. I like how you stated Cindy that repentance is ongoing our entire lives. But many suggest that the real true believers will achive a full repentance and obedience which will show they are the ones who have it I wonder though if any of those who claim this would attest they have achieved it themselves??? Would anyone on here darfe say they have 100% repented and are living 100% obedient faith and love for God and man??? Gleefully await all responses :smiley:

Cindy,

as usual, you provide some awesome insight - this is a analogy on repentance… I may use this one day. :slight_smile:

Robert,

Great post. I, too, struggle with obedience and as you have observed, we all do. Though in the past few years I have considered that perfect obedience may not be what God expects of us at this time. Desires? Yes - but expects? No. I don’t think so. If he expects it, then he will be sorely disappointed constantly and with everyone (or nearly everyone).

I really like what George MacDonald says about this on his sermons “The Way” and “The Truth in Jesus”. If you get a chance, you should listen to them (in that order) - Well, technically, MacDonald builds upon his sermons, so ideally you would read them from 1-36, but they don’t have to be read or listened too in that way.