The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Satan: Lifting the Veil

Well Geoff, along with Matt I’m still reading and enjoying too. Really liked the third post on Lucifer b.t.w. - very much so.

One thing that made me stand back when I was reading the second post was this -

Physician heal thyself? But I do understand that he was a more complex man than ‘Sinners in the hands of an Angry God’ would suggest.

Absolutely agree here. Let me clarify after another of your quotes:

So here’s how I think of this - and I haven’t yet figured out a good place to get into this model of thinking (it’s probably going to be in the “Conclusions?” section, which I haven’t yet written). I think of this through the lens of Thomas Merton’s “False Self / True Self” model. So everything that is, was created by God. And God declared everything to be “good” - therefore, all that is is good. That is the “True” nature of things. God did not create anything evil, and all that is has been created by God.

Here’s where “False Self” comes in - the “False Self” is what occurs when we turn everything inward in service to ourselves. We make an idol out of ourselves, and then we believe we can find fulfillment through things - creating an idol out of the good things God has created. This does not render them evil - they are still good. But in our misuse of the good gifts God has given us, we pervert them. We also have a tendency - when we do this - to identify ourselves through those idols. We define ourselves by what we wear, what we listen to, or a set of opinions (such as a political identity). We are not those things, though we pretend that we are for a time. That is why Merton calls it a “False Self” - it is nothing, but we treat it like it’s something.

But the “True Self” is what God always intended us to be - we were created in His image, and He is a giver and a creator. That’s what unconditional love is - it’s an outward focus, rather than an inward focus. And when we focus the gifts God has given us outward, then we will be engaging our “True Self”. Does this clarify the “illusion of evil” and what I mean by that for you?

Absolutely. As long as unconditional love guides you, I don’t think a few wrong opinions are going to prevent you from finding the path.

I went to a lecture recently by a professor who is one of the foremost Edwardsian experts. Interesting fact I discovered through this: Edwards was a panentheist. I never knew that before, and I was surprised, because I thought “how can someone who believes in eternal conscious torment believe in panentheism? Isn’t that kind of like believing God was going to burn one of His own internal organs for all of eternity? Or maybe…eternal heartburn or something?” :laughing: :wink:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Well he certainly heard God’s judgments prefigured in the thunderstorm. But he did write something very beautiful once about a spider’s web too (unlike that notorious evocation of a spider in the flame). Interesting one about panentheism and Edwards - being a panentheist certainly doesn’t make you a universalist. :slight_smile:

Yeah, I think I hear I understand what you’re saying, bro :slight_smile:

The true self/false self way of explaining things makes a lot of sense, and explains a lot of things, or at least on the human side of things (stuff in nature, like all the violence and death in the animal kingdom, and stuff like natural disasters, that’s another thing… what’s your take on all of that? And I’m pretty sure you don’t think it’s Satan :laughing:).

I think a large part of what God is doing with us is seeking, in various ways, to awake us to our true selves, or to put it in biblical terms, ‘conform us to the image of Christ’, so yeah, what Merton has to say about things, as challenging and convicting as it may be, makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for expanding on that, bro :slight_smile:

Well, that’s hard to explain - I think the best answer I’ve heard/seen for that came from John Polkinghorne in Questions of Truth. Polkinghorne is a former physicist turned priest. And he approaches it from a scientific standpoint - there seems to be a need for a certain amount of “openness” in the system in order for life to arise. And that means that the system has to be open to the possibility of chaos. Thinking in human terms, God gives us freedom in order that we might love - because this is our purpose. But love is not love without freedom. And so for freedom to exist, there is always the possibility that we might abuse it.

Now as far as disasters go - the system of the universe is so complex and beyond our ability to reason still - but, it does seem that a lot of the “natural” disasters we’ve been having lately have actually been our own damn fault. Did you hear that deforestation is likely the cause of the recent mudslide in Washington State?

Yeah, if God goes by evolution, survival of the fittest, and all of that, I guess that would make sense… I guess I still struggle with violence and death being part of the natural order, and not just on a human level… I remember watching the documentary series Planet Earth awhile back and the part where they described how male chimpanzees would sometimes rape and kill female chimpanzees, then eat their brains, that was disturbing (guess it would make sense then, if we’re descended from apes, as human beings can be just as depraved, if not more so, at times) but I think I can cope with that reality if I know it won’t always be that way.

And yeah, I totally agree that a lot of the natural disasters are our own fault, that or people aren’t wise enough to stay away from regular problem areas (can anyone say New Orleans?) or aren’t prepared enough, etc. I guess we should be thankful things aren’t as bad as they could be though.
At least we have better weather here than on Mars :laughing:

universetoday.com/14941/mars-weather/

I finished writing the entire series last night, and after doing some editing today, I just can’t wait to share it with everyone! So I’m going to start publishing one a day now!

This section is called: Accuser

This is excellent, Geoff…really excellent! :smiley:

I’m following along with great interest.

Thanks!

Very glad to hear, Steve!

The next section is up, and explores Satan’s appearance in Job amongst the sons of God - Part 6

Really good article, bro :slight_smile:

I always thought Job was an interesting book, different from a lot of other books in the Bible, and your article was eye-opening and helps me to understand it better. :slight_smile:

Speaking of Job, have you ever seen this Rob Bell video?

youtube.com/watch?v=kQ5dXHBD8jA

It’s the last video in his excellent ( at least I think it’s excellent :wink: )NOOMA series, and it’s a good one :slight_smile:

Thank you so much! It’s really nice to know I have some friends reading the whole series - I put so much work into it, and this is the only thing I get out of that. :smiley:

I have not - I put a little reminder in my calendar to watch that tonight! Thanks!

Part 7 is up, and examines the appearance of Satan as God’s State Prosecutor in a prophetic vision of Zechariah.

Part 8 is now published, and begins the exploration of Satan in the New Testament.

This just gets better and better! :smiley:

Thanks, Geoff.

Thank you so much! I kind of felt the same way as I was researching this topic - it’s absolutely fascinating!

I have published the next section - Part 9: Azazel. This section deals with the ancient rite of Atonement and its connection to Satan.

Part 10 is up, and begins to explore the story of Jesus’ trials in the desert.

Part 11 is up, and explores some of the Jewish history behind the concepts in Jesus’ day of what a messiah would look like.

Fascinating post on Azazel Geoff :smiley: - and I love that quotation from Peter Rollins!

The book was amazing - one of my favorites. Really had me thinking about a lot of things for a long time. And thank you!