The Evangelical Universalist Forum

You cannot discover history by finding facts ...

liquid hot mag-maaaah,
thanks for that post, that was very cool and very interesting. methinks it’s time to revisit the old Bible with some of the perspectives i’ve heard lately. it might come to make sense to me again.
you argue quite well for progressive revelation, a concept i think is vital. the import of which is often totally missed!

Greetings !

  Thank you redhotmagma  for your really intriquing post which showcases your Creative passion 
      for understanding the OT text ... 

  I will be spending some time .. to write about my understanding of Gen 1-3 ...
  but in the mean time .. here is a really interesting article about Erhman ..  :wink: 

    [opensourcetheology.net/node/3047#comments](http://www.opensourcetheology.net/node/3047#comments)

     I concur with the comments concerning Erhman -- meaning there is really no need to continue
      to perpetuate Bultmann & Co. proposals...  for those who are in Academics...
      it is known as publish or perish ... 

       all the best !

Hi Hothorsegz -

Have read the articel about Ehrman - and I think i agree wiht the scope of it (will have a ponder)

I reckon that it would be good to pick up on Jeremy’s fascinating post along with bits and bobs that you and I have contributed to look deeper at non fundamentalist ways - but still faithful ways - of reading scripture. However, just for a brief interlude… I reckon that many people reading these posts don’t know much about the Quest for the Historical Jesus stuff (and I’m no expert either). So here is an article I’ve found that summarises The Quest - old ad new - in a way I think site members will find congenial. (So this is just to clarify matters :blush: :smiley: )

A Survey of Historical Jesus Studies:
From Reimarus to Wright
by
Michael H. Burer
burer@bible.org

Introduction

The study of the life, ministry, and person of Jesus Christ has been at the center of the Church’s thinking since its inception, but the last two hundred years have seen a marked change in how those within the Church and those without have examined Jesus and the Church’s conceptions about him. The Enlightenment brought sweeping change to the world, and religious studies were no exception. Everything, even Jesus himself, fell prey to critical method and examination, and the current state of Jesus studies and Christology can be traced back to this fundamental change in the world’s way of thinking. The period of time covered in this study dates from the Enlightenment to the present day, with two respective scholars being used as bookends. Of course nothing is as simple as it seems. Hermann Samuel Reimarus did not think in a vacuum; recent study has pointed to trends and periods earlier than the Enlightenment which influenced his thinking. He was the first to give voice, however, to anything substantially different from the tradition and teaching received in the church throughout the seventeen and a half centuries before his writings were published, so he is seen as the starting point for modern critical study of Jesus. Using Reimarus as a starting point is now generally accepted as heuristically viable and useful. N. T. Wright is the ending point because he more than many other scholars is doing things in a positive way. He has a respect for history, a thirst for theology, and a sound method. So between these two men comes a period which is important to understand for those who wish to study Jesus and proclaim him in the next century.

Two caveats are in order before beginning. First, this study seeks to give an overview, not detailed analysis. I will show major trends evident in this period, I will identify major players, and I will offer tentative evaluations for the future direction of Jesus studies. It is a definitely a bird’s eye view. Second, terms must be defined. Technically “Historical Jesus studies” and “Christology” are not identical areas of study even though they focus upon the same person. Studies of the historical Jesus seek to explain and disseminate a reconstruction of his human life and work which is critically accurate and defensible; it is the practice of history. Christology, on the other hand, generally studies the meaning and significance of his death and divine life, both pre-existence and resurrection life, as they are expounded by the Church beyond Historical categories to spiritual and religious meaning and truth; it is the practice of theology. The quandary which this period leaves us and which anyone who serious delves into this area must address is the current divorce in religious studies between the historical Jesus and the Christological Jesus, between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith. Historical Jesus studies and Christology should go hand in hand; it is only in an attempt to be focused and concise that I have only looked at one side of the equation.

Overview of Historical Jesus Studies: Reimarus to Wright

The history of Historical Jesus studies during this period has generally been divided into recognizable periods. Although there is danger in defining anything into rigid periods of time, these classifications have proven themselves useful in tracking the major trends of study and patterns of thought in Jesus studies in the last two hundred years. Despite slight differences in naming, these distinct periods are generally recognized and used in almost every work concerning this time. My method will be to explain general trends and direction for each period of time as well as major players who helped to define that period. The major periods are the Old Quest, from 1778 to 1906; an interim period or “No Quest,” from 1906 to 1953; the New Quest, from 1953 to the present day; and the Third Quest, from the early 1980’s until the present day.

The Old Quest (1778-1906)

The first Quest for the historical Jesus, now defined generally as the Old Quest, received its name from the title given to the English translation of Albert Schweitzer’s book, Von Reimarus zu Wrede: eine Geschichte der Leben-Jesu-Forschung, published in 1906. The English translation was given the title The Quest of the Historical Jesus which came to be used for the pattern of study as a whole. There perhaps is one basic, broad attitude which operated during this period: a true, critical understanding of the history of Jesus’ life leads one away from the faith that had been received by the contemporary church. This time was the time of the Enlightenment. Dogma and revelation no longer were accepted as accurate sources of information. Critical history, devoted to sources and “objectivity,” held primacy of place in the determination of truth. Scholars working during this time felt that only critical historical work could truly discover who Jesus was. They believed it could strip away inaccurate layers of interpretation placed upon him by later followers which were not historical in any sense. This method of investigation had been used in other fields, and it was now time to apply it to the Bible. The application of this method of history upon the Gospel materials and their central character yielded something far different than what was normally understood to be true. The essential conclusion was that the Jesus of history was in no way equal to or coextensive with the Christ of faith. In fact, the Jesus of history had been transformed into the Christ of faith by naïve people at best, deceivers at worst. Along with this recovery of the true Jesus of history, the Old Quest carried with it the implicit assumption that the theology of the church should change to correct itself in light of this new historical revelation. The belief in Christ passed down throughout the ages in the church had been built on an improper historical understanding. In light of that, the belief should now change.

The starting point for this historical quest was Hermann Samuel Reimarus. Born in 1694, he was a professor of Oriental languages in Hamburg until his death in 1768. Interestingly enough, he never made his views about Christianity publicly known during his lifetime. It was not until Reimarus’ works were published posthumously by Gotthold Ephraïm Lessing in fragments from 1774 to 1778 that his private views were made public. The most important fragment was the seventh one, published in 1778, entitled “Von dem Zwecke Jesu und seiner Jünger,” variously translated as “On the Intention of Jesus and His Disciples” or “The Goal of Jesus and His Disciples.” This truly was the fragment which started the quest for the historical Jesus.

In “Von dem Zwecke Jesu und seiner Jünger” Reimarus postulated an intense difference between who Jesus actually was and what his disciples proclaimed him to be. Wright’s assessment of Reimarus is useful as a summary:
Jesus was a Jewish reformer who became increasingly fanatical and politicized; and he failed. His cry of dereliction on the cross signalled the end of his expectation that his god would act to support him. The disciples fell back on a different model of Messiahship, announced that he had been ‘raised’, and waited for their god to bring the end of the world. They too were disappointed, but instead of crying out in despair they founded the early Catholic church, which to Reimarus may have looked like much the same thing.

Jesus was a revolutionary who tried and failed; the disciples were deceivers who propagated a view of Jesus they knew to be false. Reimarus in his mind had unearthed a historical Jesus antithetical to the Christ of faith, and he hoped it would be the demise of Christianity as he knew it.

Once begun, the quest of the historical Jesus continued in earnest. David Friedrich Strauss is perhaps the best known scholar from this period. Born in 1808, he held various teaching posts in his early life. He was called to Zürich as a Professor of Theology in 1839, but because of opposition to him by conservative Christians he was never allowed to take up his post. He lived as a freelance writer after that until his death in 1874. Strauss wrote his monumental work Das Leben Jesu, kritisch bearbeitet when he was 28 years old. In this work he patently rejected supernaturalism and rationalism and described the church’s handling of the historical information about Christ as myth. Strauss accepted a bare historical framework of Jesus’ life—including events such as his baptism by John the Baptist, his teaching and making of disciples, as well as his death due to the hostility of the Pharisees—but the early church elaborated upon this and turned the historical Jesus into something he was not by a twofold process. First, the church interpreted the events of Jesus’ life as fulfillment of prophecy and Old Testament belief and expectation, thus establishing him as Messiah. Second, in accordance with his reputation as Messiah, the church created myths and legends about him through the vehicle of community belief. “The historical Jesus was thus turned into the divine Messiah by the pious, but erroneous devotion of the church.” Thus according to Strauss the historical Jesus was buried underneath deep layers of myth, so much so that a biography of his life was nearly impossible to write.

Following Strauss was a true giant of the Christian faith and scholarly insight who marks both the end of the Old Quest and a new direction for Historical Jesus studies. Albert Schweitzer was truly a genius in his own right. He published his magnum opus, Von Reimarus zu Wrede: Eine Geschichte der Leben-Jesu-Forschung, in 1906 at the age of 31. Not only did he prove himself to be an influential biblical scholar, he also distinguished himself in the field of music and medicine. It is well known that the last fifty years of his life were spent as a missionary doctor in Africa. His work contributed to the study of the historical Jesus in two ways. First, he declared the original quest to be void of results. In his estimation, the liberal lives of the nineteenth century were simply reflections of those who sought the historical Jesus. Second, he took issue with them for minimizing or neglecting the eschatological dimension of Jesus’ words and actions in an attempt to make him more universal. Schweitzer felt that the key to understanding Jesus was his eschatology. Jesus could not be divorced from the eschatological context which he shared with the Judaism of his day and be understood in any reasonable fashion. The problem with Schweitzer’s view is the extreme form of apocalypticism which he believed Jesus held. Wright’s assessment is useful at this point:

He * believed himself to be the Messiah while the onlookers thought he might be Elijah; he confidently expected that his god would step in and bring the world to an end during the course of his ministry. He dreamed the impossible dream of the kingdom, bringing about the end of world history. When this did not happen, and the great wheel of history refused to turn, he threw himself upon it, was crushed in the process, but succeeded in turning it none the less. He thus took upon himself the Great Affliction which was to break upon Israel and the world. The bridge between his historical life and Christianity is formed by his personality: he towers over history, and calls people to follow him in changing the world. The very failure of his hopes set them free from Jewish shackles, to become, in their new guise, the hope of the world.
Schweitzer thus halted the Old Quest so severely that it would not continue for another 50 years, yet he also set the stage for the Third Quest which would not start until 75 years after his writing and fifteen years after his death in 1965.

An Interim Period (1906-1953)

The period immediately following the publication of Schweitzer’s decisive work was a hiatus from the study of the historical Jesus. It has even been called the period of “No Quest.” Schweitzer had so effectively critiqued the Old Quest concerning its universalizing tendencies and lack of apocalyptic vision that scholarly pursuit into the historical Jesus was halted. Historical skepticism was the major feature of this period and its epitome is found in Rudolf Bultmann. A description of him and his views is sufficient for understanding this period.

Bultmann lived from 1884 until 1976. Throughout his life he held various teaching positions at different schools in Germany. He is most famous for his contributions to form criticism detailed in his work Die Geschichte der synoptischen Tradition. Bultmann contributed to this interim period between the quests by focusing the attention of history upon the early church, not the life of Jesus. The material in the Gospels does not illuminate the life of Jesus but the Sitz im Leben of the church. Jesus’ words were in fact those of Christian preachers speaking in his name, and the Christ which was preached was the Christ of faith, not the Jesus of history. Because of these characteristics of the New Testament documents, little could be said about the life of Jesus; material to gather that information simply did not exist in the New Testament. Despite this historical problem, Bultmann saw no need for the theology of the church to change in the slightest due to any historical study or knowledge. The theology of the church was in place because of a response to Jesus, not because of historical verity, and could stand as it was with no challenge to change from historical judgments. Jesus places an existential call to decision upon the lives of all whom he touches, and indeed the historical disjunction between his life and faith makes this existentialism all the stronger in Bultmann’s thought.

The New Quest (1953 to the present)

The force of Bultmann’s thinking and theology was difficult to overcome, but not impossible. The next stage of serious investigation of the historical Jesus softened the skepticism of Bultmann somewhat, but it did not alter at any fundamental level the wide reaching disdain for the historical record contained in the New Testament materials. This renewal of the Old Quest shares many characteristics of its predecessor and carries many of its assertions much further.

The New Quest began on October 23, 1953 when Ernst Käsemann presented his lecture on “The Problem of the Historical Jesus” to a reunion of Bultmann’s students. The ideals and methods adopted by the New Quest did differ somewhat from Bultmann’s thought. Käsemann criticized Bultmann’s total disconnection of history and faith, emphasizing that Jesus must be rooted in history to some degree to avoid docetism which would allow Christ to be formed however the scholar wills. This was a valid criticism which the New Quest was right to take up. However, the New Quest remained in the same vein as its predecessors in many ways. As Bultmann did, those within the New Quest relied heavily upon the sayings of Jesus as primary material, generally ignoring the events surrounding his life as worthy material for discerning the historical Jesus. The New Quest makes full use of critical tools such as source and form criticism which Wright asserts “have caused considerable difficulty when it comes to serious historical reconstruction.” The New Quest generally holds to an extreme view of apocalyptic and rejects it in contrast to Schweitzer who accepted it. The New Quest generally views scripture in a manner similar to Wilhelm Wrede’s in that the majority of the framework and content can be traced to the early church and is useless in establishing any type of historical truth.

The best known permutation of the New Quest is the Jesus Seminar. Headed by Robert Funk, the Jesus Seminar purports to undertake a serious, scholarly analysis of the material in the New Testament with the goal of determining who Jesus really was and freeing the Church from the improper interpretation handed down through the centuries. Serious analysis of the Jesus Seminar has been undertaken by many scholars, so only two major points need to be stated here. One, the Jesus Seminar falls right in line behind both Bultmann’s and Wrede’s skepticism. One need not read very far into the writings of the Seminar to find statements arguing against the historicity of the New Testament documents. This general attitude has shifted the burden of proof to those who claim historicity. This skepticism is obvious in their results: the Seminar does not rate many sayings or deeds at all as being exactly what Jesus said or did, so they are left with very little information upon which to base their historical reconstruction. Second, it can be charged that the Seminar is simply working to prove forgone conclusions about who Jesus really was. In the Introduction to The Five Gospels, the authors present many “Rules” which on the surface are intended to be understood as objective facts which guide their investigation. Many of these “Rules,” however, are far from settled in modern scholarship and simply represent the bias of the Seminar. As a matter of comparison, one such rule concerns Jesus’ teaching: “Jesus’ images are concrete and vivid, his sayings and parables customarily metaphorical and without explicit application.” Few would argue the accuracy of this statement. However, on the very same page is another statement of very doubtful worth: “Jesus makes no claim to be the Anointed, the messiah.” To make this claim as a “Rule” intended to guide the investigation is an a priori assumption which can only be seen as a conclusion reached before the investigation even starts. A cursory investigation of recent scholarship on Jesus’ statements and view of himself will show that this question is in no way settled, and there is no scholarly consensus. Assuming their conclusions is a serious flaw in the Seminar’s investigation, and it casts doubt upon the value of their work. Given these brief assessments, it is not difficult to see how the Seminar arrived at their conclusions: Jesus was a wise man, a sage who was distinct but not in any miraculous, apocalyptic, Christological way.

The Third Quest (Early 1980’s to the Present Day)

The Third Quest is distinguished from the other quests not so much in time as in thought and method. This stage is not as easily defined because it does not have a definite starting point, and scholars which fall under this rubric often diverge widely on other matters. Despite this diversity there are certain trends which can be identified. In one vein, the scholars within the Third Quest attempt to do history seriously by placing Jesus squarely and credibly within his Jewish eschatological context. This quest rejects the historical skepticism of the New Quest and embraces Schweitzer’s central theme to Jesus’ life while at the same time refining it and making it more accurate and representative of the Judaism of Jesus’ day. In another vein, parallel to historical work centering upon eschatology is a new field of study usually called early Christology. Early Christology casts its net wider than Historical Jesus studies because it also looks at the theological development which takes place within the New Testament writings as well. It is similar, though, in that it seeks to trace the roots of Christian conception about the Christ of faith through the New Testament writings as far back as historically possible, even into the life and understanding of Jesus himself. It is perhaps simplistic to state it this way, but the Third Quest contains two broad trends, one which does history which is theologically accurate, and another which does theology which is historically accurate. There is much overlap, but there is much complementary work as well.

N. T. Wright is a major player within the Third Quest worthy of note. He has written many popular works, and his major contribution to scholarly writing is a multi-volumed work currently in progress entitled Christian Origins and the Question of God. Two volumes have already been published, The New Testament and the People of God and Jesus and the Victory of God. Wright is making a positive contribution in Jesus studies because he has clearly thought through the historical questions which must be answered in order to get an accurate picture of who Jesus was and what he did. In his view, the scholar’s main goal should be to determine how history progressed “from the pluriform Judaism that existed within the Greco-Roman world of 10 BC to the pluriform Judaism and Christianity of AD 110.” To do so, Wright proposes five questions which must be answered: One, how does Jesus fit into the Judaism of his day? Two, what were his aims? Three, why did he die? Four, how did the early church come into being, and why did it take the shape it did? Five, why are the gospels what they are? Wright should be allowed to speak for himself in summarizing his views. The context of this excerpt is the validity of Jesus’ resurrection:

The relevance of Jesus, then, becomes radically different depending on whether one accepts or rejects the witness of the early church to his resurrection. Furthermore, even if one does accept that witness, it means radically different things depending on one’s view of Jesus prior to the resurrection. If he was a docetic figure, the divine being of so much would-be orthodox theology, his resurrection would simply validate the salvation he had revealed and offered. It would prove that he was, after all, ‘god’ . . . . If he was a teacher of timeless truths, the announcer of the timeless call to decision, or the pioneer of a new way of being-in-the-world, his resurrection would presumably endorse the programme he had articulated; though, interestingly, those who have constructed Jesus-figures like that tend not to include the resurrection in their schemes, except as a metaphor for the rise of Christian faith. But if he was an eschatological prophet/Messiah, announcing the kingdom and dying in order to bring it about, the resurrection would declare that he had in principle succeeded in his task, and that his earlier redefinitions of the coming kingdom had pointed to a further task awaiting his followers, that of implementing what he had achieved. Jesus, after all, as a good first-century Jew, believed that Israel functioned to the rest of the world as a hinge to the door; what he had done for Israel, he had done in principle for the whole world. It makes sense, within his aims as we have studied them, to suppose that he envisaged his followers becoming in their turn Isaianic heralds, lights to the world.

Major Areas of Need at this Juncture

After surveying the landscape, it is perfectly reasonable to chart our direction. Where are Jesus studies to go? What are the key ideas and thoughts to refute, ponder, or accept? Here I offer three areas of need and two cautions.
Needs

Much modern critical study of the historical Jesus uses extra-canonical works for historical information. For example, the Jesus Seminar believes the Gospel of Thomas to be an independent source for information about Jesus, and they date it older even than Mark. It becomes a crucial linchpin in their historical reconstruction and perhaps sets the standard by which other works, even the canonical ones, are judged. But is their assessment correct? Evangelical scholarship must seriously address the dating of extra-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas and their relationship to the canonical materials. Just as J. B. Lightfoot accurately dated the seven Ignatian letters as within the early period of Christianity and Constantin von Tischendorf found early textual evidence for the text of the New Testament and thus F. C. Baur’s Hegelian reconstruction of the formation of Christianity fell, perhaps scholars need to take time to work on these materials to date them in relationship to the canonical materials and assess their textual origins; the results might prove to be just as dramatic.

The primary historical method in use since the 1950’s has utilized the criteria of authenticity. These are various rules used to determine whether or not something is more or less likely to be historical. They include the criterion of dissimilarity, coherence, multiple attestation, and embarrassment. The issue concerns the use of these criteria in light of the historical work proposed by the Third Quest. For example, the criterion of dissimilarity states that traditions different from the Judaism of Jesus’ day and the Christian church he founded are more likely to be original. This is in direct conflict with the trend to see Jesus as firmly within the Judaism of his day and directly connected to the church he founded. Criteria of authenticity must be constantly evaluated and reevaluated, refined and revised. We must learn how these criteria are affected by true historical work. This does not mean that we should reject them out of hand. Instead scholars should make them more useful as a better historical method is developed.

The alarming trend in a survey of historical Jesus studies in this period is the demands placed upon the church to change in light of the historical reconstructions advanced. This was a definite agenda of the Old Quest and still is of the New. But these demands assume that the historical Jesus found is the definitive portrait of Jesus above all others. But is the historical Jesus equivalent to Jesus in his fullness? We must carefully answer no. This gap between the historical Jesus and the real Jesus requires that we do two things. First, as scholars who are using history as our primary tool we must understand history’s limitations and restrictions. Christianity is based upon history but understanding it never has been and never will be solely a historical endeavor. We need to properly assess and if need be reassess history’s place in the study of Jesus. Second, we must learn how to properly place the historical Jesus within Christian life, thought, and theology as a whole. The historical Jesus as a modern reconstruction should not displace centuries of Christian thought and practice. Is it a useful endeavor? Yes, by all means; anything which delves into the person and work of Christ is worth pursuing, but it should be pursued with the proper method and perspective.

Cautions

The cautions I would offer are interrelated. The study of Jesus in any form or fashion demands humility. We are finite creatures, separated from his life on earth by great geographical, chronological, and cultural distance. We do not have exhaustive knowledge about Jesus. We also come upon the scene at the tail end of two thousand years of study, reflection, and investigation into Jesus. The greatest minds in the history of the world have sought him, and we follow in their path. As scholars who usually strive for honesty and integrity in our work, we should also strive for humility. Unfortunately this is sorely lacking in many scholars who study Historical Jesus and Christology. They presume to wipe away the Christ of faith with modern critical methods, a few articles, and some well-placed press conferences. The hubris of such scholarship is staggering. Let us not duplicate the errors of those currently in the fray. We should not be afraid to ask the hard questions and challenge currently held assumptions, but we must always be humble in our investigations and assertions and never assume that we have painted the definitive portrait of Jesus.

Not only must we embody humility, we must also embody the proper kind of skepticism. The trend in Jesus studies has been skepticism about the historical integrity of the text which we have. We must instead be skeptical about our own objectivity. Two hundred years of investigation into the historical Jesus have produced a bewildering array of differing pictures. Many were made in the image of the investigator, and many responded to the cultural questions of the time. The passage of time has shown us that those who investigate the historical Jesus have not been objective but have responded to and answered many of their own questions. We are not free from this trap either. We should carefully investigate our own biases and examine our results to weed out improper conclusions.

Conclusion

The tendency in evangelical scholarship has been to limit or even eliminate the pursuit of the historical Jesus from our scholarly work. I grew up hearing many sermons against “liberal theologians” who were attacking Christ, and that attitude is pervasive. Unfortunately, we have not balanced that with positive contributions in these areas; instead we have abandoned the playing field. As evangelicals who love the Lord we should strive to work positively in this area. Of course we will not accept every method or assumption, but we can make a positive contribution and change the tide. In a recent article in Christianity Today, Wright relates an incident which changed his attitude towards scholarly study and impacted the direction his life was to take. John Wenham was addressing the Christian Union at Oxford, and Wright says:
In one of those seminars, he said of course you realize what we desperately need are people who love the Lord and love scripture, and have got the academic background to do the biblical research. He said it’s no good waiting for people who don’t have that love in their hearts to write silly things about the Bible, and then put Christian scholars to work refuting them. What we need are people out there making contributions and feeding the stuff into the stream higher up.
In closing, as Wenham suggested to Wright, let us commit to being proactive in our study of Jesus. Let us not be afraid to blaze new trails and know Jesus in new and different ways. Our pursuits are not our own; let us do them for him and God’s greater glory.

Michael Burer graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1998 with the Th.M. and is currently studying for the Ph.D. He is the Assistant Editor for the NET Bible translation which the Foundation is sponsoring.*

Greetings again …

 These days the weather has been thunderstorms during the days or nights with spectacular displays 
   of Lightning flashes and Lighning strikes ...  although I have been a "wet duck" because I need to 
  walk along the over ankle deep puddles along the roads.. or riding an electric overgrown mix of 
  bicycle and motorcycle... these e-bikes are illegal in Central Guangzhou as well as regular 
   gasoline motorcycles or even scooters ( which is what many people call them but not me ... :wink: 

 I will try to find a convenient way to let others view where and what I have seen too...

     by the way --  My tongue in cheek comments about Publish or Perish should not be taken 
   as derogatory towards Erhman too ... there is such a huge myriad of interpretative views 
concerning the Biblical text whether it is about the OT text or the NT text ...

 e.g.   
   Andrew,

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond. I really appreciate it.

Here are my thoughts in response to yours.

Regarding the shift in v. 24. You write

Martin acknowledges that Jesus repeats ‘in those days’ (en ekeinais tais hēmerais) from verse 19, but does not explain how this obvious temporal connection is somehow overruled by the change of register. …

     Gustavo replies to Andrew ...

       The obvious temporal connection? I am surprised by your style here. The meaning and referent of this phrase is hardly obvious, as evidenced by the many interpretations in the literature over the last 100 years+ Here as in the Septuagint, this rather formulaic phrase can refer to a number of things, and need not necessarily refer to the same events as before 

  both of these writers and researchers are really keen in their perspective fields ...  ( from what I can 
   gather from reading their articles )

  Further, I am surprised you mix, in your quote above, material from Matthew 24. Matthew has reshaped the Markan account substantially in light of his own needs. I believe my analysis and comparison with Matthew 24 shows that for Matthew, the fall of Jerusalem is no longer of interest, since he writes years after 70 A.D. He has chosen, therefore, to highlight the parousia (his term not Mark´s), which he inserts in the disciples´question, and to eliminate much of Mark´s procedural language in Mark 13:5b-23. We must keep the two passages separate, however. We are looking at Mark and trying to understand his shaping of the speech in light of his audience´s /readership´s needs.

    As you can notice from Gustavo's response ...  There is a lot of research dealing with the Markan priority 
   and a lot of linguistic analysis + literary analysis and so on ....

  Thus, people have a tendency to go either more deep into the "Forest" of this kind of analysis ...
    Others, will have a tendency to reject, ignore, or move in the direction of Allegorizing or Devotional style
   or their own personal style ..
   Then there are those who engage in a Literalistic interpretative method which most likely ends up 
      being .. the bible says what it means and means what it says .. although this probably is more connected
     with how it means within 20th Century English ... 
   Then there is the Emerging Emergent portion that might include all of the above ..  
     Or outside the mainstream of the Traditional pattern as in Open Source Theology or others ...
    the list could continue on ...

   Which brings me to my point .. -- It is very refreshing to find a Forum such as this one ...
      Where there is plenty of thoughtful Considerate behavior towards each person's perspective ...
    ( the applause smiley )  ( the applause smiley )  ( the applause smiley ) 

    So again I wish to share my appreciation for those who are, have, and most likely will continue 
      to keep this Community as it is ... 

    all the best !

------------ Let us not be afraid to blaze new trails and know Jesus in new and different ways. Our pursuits are not our own; let us do them for him and God’s greater glory. ----------

         Sorbornost ---  Really enthusiastic for your ongoing insights and contributions !

    here is an article I am reading now ...  

opensourcetheology.net/node/2543

    all the best !   

 before I forget .. I will make a brief note here ...  
   because I used to have all of my notes, research articles, and papers handy ....
 Now during these years living in Asia ... I no longer have any of my previous Theological reference works 
    or books or articles...   so my daily living was swallowed up and engulfed with the issues 
   of earning income, finding really good medical care, and getting along with those surrounding me ...
 The "earning income" was really good during a peak years ago .... then slowly declined until 
    I said to myself --- I could remain in Taiwan for several more years but then what ?
   So I moved to Guangzhou ...  the 2008 -2010 troublesome economic "times" did not really have 
     much of an impact on my daily living although for others it did ...
     finding "good medical care" was relatively easy since I lived in Northern Taiwan area ...
     medical care is also relatively cheap there too ...  in a similar vein as Canada there is 
    National Health Insurance .. so making payments yearly to receive and use the NHI card ...
     doctor visits were only 100 NT dollars per visit then raised to 150 NT dollars per visit....
   usually the prescriptive medicine was included ...  Dental visits were the same price too ...
     which made me feel super happy ... once when I had visited Anchorage I sought out a Dentist
     to only "look" at my mouth but after visiting 5 Dental Clinics I finally found one ...
     The Dentist had a relative living in Taiwan so was friendly enough to help me ... whereas
      the others would have charged me 3,500 NT dollars only for a "look-see"  wow....

     my notes ---  [orthodoxwiki.org/Chalcedon_(An_Analysis](http://orthodoxwiki.org/Chalcedon_(An_Analysis))
 The Oriental Orthodox Churches, consisting of the Armenian, Coptic, 

Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian and Syrian Churches, did not accept the Council
of Chalcedon but upheld the original three Ecumenical Councils. They were
in turn falsely accused of following the heresy of Monophysitism.
Monophysites taught that Christ is solely Divine and that His humanity was
“swallowed up” by His Divinity. Oriental Orthodox are instead Miaphysites
following St. Cyril of Alexandria (and before him, St. Athanasius the Great)
who taught the “one nature (mia physis) of God the Word incarnate.” While
the prefix “mono” connotes numerical oneness, “mia” more accurately
conveys our doctrine of Christ’s composite oneness.

        My concept and perspective of Christ's life is the same as above .. miaphysite
    but then again ... much more later ... 

all the best !
because daily living presents all of us with lots and lots of challenging dilemnas …

HI Hothorsegz -

Really interesting posts! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: So you are actually a teacher of/lecturer in theology - by the sound of things - and your knowledge is certainly deep. Hmmmmm… Well I’m a general humanities teacher so my knowledge is broad but not deep - which is why I posted the article about the Quest for the Historical Jesus - for the benefit of others and for the benefit of reminding myself :laughing: :laughing:

I’d actually still like to slow down a bit and think back over stuff that you and Jeremey (Redhot) have said about myth and literalism. I think middle age makes me slower than I once was :laughing:

Blessings (and Tally ho :slight_smile: )

Dick

So are you originally from mainland China?

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

       Actually I am not a Lecturer in Theology ... although that was supposed to be my 'dream' job years ago ...

   My original plan A was to be a Bible Teacher / Professor in some not famous Bible College somewhere 
     in the World... 

    But .. well..  that did not happen ... and so I went along with what happened at that time ...
      I became a teacher but not of Theology ...  :wink:   I have been teaching English in a dynamic way 
     to Taiwanese and now in Mainland China  -- before I had my own illegal classroom which the police
    knew was there ... but unlike others who wish to have an illegal classroom I did not put up a sign
     outside to try to attract more students ... nor did I print out brochures or pamplets and so on 
    to distribute to the teeming masses surrounding the area and within the City itself or there a bouts...
   I got involved in DIY making of my own computers and setting up of edutainment courseware as well...
   edu = education  and the tainment you already got ...  :stuck_out_tongue: 
     I also taught in the local university as well as teaching from all ages too .. including k-12 undergrad
   graduate ... doctoral students n professors along with businessmen to...
     at one job interview -- the american interviewer was deeply impressed with me ... told me i was
       certainly a "shoe-in "  but the President had just changed ... and this new nitwit attempting to 
     exert his new found power  :unamused:   told me that I was over qualified and under qualified ..  :unamused: 

    Although living here within a Chinese cultural environment I am neither a ABC (american born chinese )
      nor a reverse banana either ... as a joke a banana is someone who looks Chinese ( or maybe Asian )
     on the outside and whose behavior is "white" on the inside ...  <img src="/uploads/default/original/1X/15680453330e74f929b585a237613f0bdf61e069.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"/> 

     However, my degrees are Theological degrees ....  :laughing:  :laughing: 
        thus at times in the past this situation did present some challenges during a typical interview...
       because many schools -- whether small or big ... or at the High School level or University level 
      especially Universities ... because Universities want to attract new students from the degrees
        that the New Teacher / Professors have... 
      And although I have extensive teaching experience for too many years ..  
          A Theological degree has very little honey to attract bees... <img src="/uploads/default/original/1X/15680453330e74f929b585a237613f0bdf61e069.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"/> 

       
        Up until now we have had Myth ... Literalism .. and I sneaked in an article from Open Source Theology
          and have been reading through articles by  another Theologian 
         [postost.net/lexicon/hermeneutics-pictures](http://www.postost.net/lexicon/hermeneutics-pictures)    Andrew Perriman who deals with 
           the The narrative premise of a post-Christendom theology   

         I think that his article here above .. illustrates what is hermeneutics as per most usages...

     [postost.net/2011/03/why-evan ... onclusions](http://www.postost.net/2011/03/why-evangelical-biblical-scholars-hesitant-accepting-historical-critical-conclusions)
    [postost.net/2011/02/kevin-de ... about-hell](http://www.postost.net/2011/02/kevin-deyoung-rob-bell-argument-about-hell)
     [postost.net/quotation/james- ... tive-jesus](http://www.postost.net/quotation/james-dg-dunn/there-no-objective-jesus)
      [postost.net/2011/01/message- ... e-sentence](http://www.postost.net/2011/01/message-bible-one-sentence)

         Andrew as those who make comments call him ..  has more than enough dynamic Passion for his 
       Theological views ... to say the least ...   :stuck_out_tongue: 

      there is a link to the 25 messages on that webpage ...  and no I am not enthralled or enthusiastic 
         with Andrew's own sentence either ... :stuck_out_tongue:  but then again why would I ?    :laughing: 
       I continually find intuitive insights by reading others ... which then flash like lightning strikes in the 
        darkened sky above me .. where by I am stimulated to have my own "flash bulb" intuitive 
        experiences which then propel me onwards to building up and developing my own personal Theological 
          concepts, proposals and paradigm  ...   

     Now there is a reason that I continue to move onward or from a Literalistic intrepretation of the 
       Biblical Text ...   a literal -- e.g.  taking the NT text for example and attempting to elucidate
       one static interpretation in defense of say ... Anabaptists separation from most of Society ..
      or the stance of many Calvinist Reformed teachings ... or the Pentecostal experience of 
         spiritual "gifts"  or the Wesleyean camp of "Holiness"  or say of Fundamentalist Churches 
      with their own rigid dogmatic doctrines ... to me creates a huge headache...

    meaning which "camp" is correct ?   which "group" supposedly owns the deeds to so called "Truth"?
     with such diversity present in too many different Church denominations or groups that belong
       to the Literalistic interpretative of NT texts then there is a continual struggle for "authoritative clout"
     over others ... constant bickering and constant enforcement of very aggressive stubborn 
         Hierarchical Trinitarian relations which then are followed by advocating this Hierarchical relationship
        within the Church structure and between members of these Churches ...

       There are simply too many within and without the Church as a whole ... 
     that very often complain at the diverse aggressive turmoils between so called "Christians"
      who are supposed to be the ambassadors for a so called "Loving God" who also happens to 
      follow the "In the hands of an Angry God" type of sermon   (Jonathan Edwards I think )
     thus the relevance of any Hope of Reconciliation between those within and without the Church
       seems very dim indeed....

       I can easily demonstrate ( demonstration as in marching thru a city on a street )
       in Central Guangzhou ... or even travel to Beijing or Shanghai or even Chongqing for that matter...
        and I also can become a very fast Martyr too...  
        in the sense of  ---  One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
         Most likely the second one would happen rather than the first unless I wished to be such a
        aggressive evangelist for those tenets expressed by Literalistic interpretative readings of the NT text.
      Which also very strangely enough have more than enough "ethnocentric baggage" from their
        clutching too tightly of Fundamentalist Conservative views of American cultural living ...

        But what benefit for the Church at large within this World would that have ?

         probably barely a footnote in some newspapers or News... 
          probably a lot of acrimonious writings in Conservative News... 
         more acrimonious dealings in the Political realm as well...

        notice the attitude and behavior ... acrimonious   
      I will give a list of fascinating sentences with one of my own concepts ... soon ...

      Thus for me ... the Bultmann & Co.  ( my nickname for a lot of Historical, Literary Criticism ... )
          I cannot accept their "Demythologizing" of the NT texts .. because of their basic premise to begin with ...
    
        I also continue to move onward ( not meaning "more correct or accurate in terms of attempting
        to "win" at the Chess game or obtaining more "authoritative clout " over others )
          and in a direction leaving behind a Literalistic hermeneutic ( even though I seldom used it anyway)

         What I feel delight and enthusiastic excitement is finding that Miroslav Volf 
         stimulates my intuitive thinking about Life ... 
         and this article at wikipedia about him ... has made my intuitive insights sparkle like the 
            the experience of feeling awe at a clear night sky with radiant light from the myriad of stars
         and the reflective sunlight off the moon ... creating an ebullient, effervescent, exuberant
           reflection of the moonlight & stars upon a lake while sitting on the grass ...

        [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Volf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Volf)

           The systematic contours of Volf’s theology are most clearly visible in Free of Charge. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, commissioned the book as his 2006 Lent Book.[9] Its immediate themes are giving and forgiving as two chief modes of grace, but the book is an accessible introduction and invitation to the Christian faith. In this work, the central themes of Volf’s work that receive more in depth treatment in other texts—God as unconditional love, the Trinitarian nature of God, creation as gift, Christ’s death on he cross for the ungodly, justification by faith and communal nature of Christian life, love of enemy and care for the downtrodden, reconciliation and forgiveness, and hope for a world of love—come together into a unity. Because it contains frequent reflections on concrete experiences, the book makes visible that Volf’s theology both grows out of and leads to a life of faith.

The dissertation was published as Trinität und Gemeinschaft: Eine Ökumenische Ekklesiologie (1996; translated into English as After Our Likeness: The Church as the Image of the Triune God, 1998). Volf seeks to both show that a Free church ecclesiology is a theologically legitimate form of ecclesiology (a proposition denied by both Roman Catholic and Orthodox official teaching) and to give that typically individualistic ecclesiology focused on the Lordship of Christ a more robustly communal character by tying it to the communal nature of God. Volf takes Joseph Ratzinger (Catholic, current Pope Benedict XVI) and John Zizioulas (Orthodox, and a bishop) as his dialogue partners, and critiques their anchoring of the communal and hierarchical nature of the church in hierarchical Trinitarian relations (both thinkers gives primacy to the “One,” though each does this in a different way).[11] As an alternative, Volf proposes a non-hierarchical account of church as a community rooted in an egalitarian understanding of the Trinity (since hierarchy is, in his judgment, unthinkable with regard to three equally divine persons).[12] Each member of the church has “charisms” for the common good of all in the church, without the strict need of the “one” to symbolize and guarantee unity (though the “one” might be needed for pragmatic rather than dogmatic reasons). Volf’s position is not, however, that hierarchical forms of ecclesiology are illegitimate. Though not ultimately ideal, in certain cultural settings hierarchical forms of the church may even be the best possible and therefore preferable ways of reflecting in the church the Trinitarian communion of the one God.

      In my thinking I followed a similar perspective with Particularity within Unity ... 

The whole article should be read … with enthusiastic viewing … :wink:

Theology of Embrace — this area is profound as well…

as well as involved in the Artistic way …
Some of these texts were on issues at the intersection between faith and culture (as, for instance, those dealing with the religious dimensions of the poetry of the Serbian poet Aleksa Šantić, which were the seed for his first book, done in collaboration with the Croatian painter Marko Živković and titled I znam da sunce ne boji se tame “The Sun Doesn’t Fear Darkness”].

          :smiley:  :smiley:  :smiley:    I will be careful not to quote too much from the Wikipedia article....

  If I followed the Literalistic Hermeneutic then I dare to say that I would probably not appreciate 
     the depth, breadth and length that Volf has achieved by integrating many areas into his Theology....

    Also If I followed the Bultmann & Co. with its Demythologizing scheme .. then I would approach 
      Volf from Liberation theology viewpoint or from politics ... which in my mind greatly reduces
      the awe inspiring aspect of developing a profound Theology based on a Trinitarian perspective ...

    To follow a Literalistic viewpoint with Fundamentalist Conservative  ( and at times full of 
       "ethnocentric " behavior )  then I could never appreciate the people I am surrounded by...
      I could never give a Muslim a bear hug .. or smile frequently to .. or wink with .. or laugh with ..
       or share my friendly heart with ....  and I would probably feel quite annoyed with Chinese 
       socio-cultural living ... along with continued aggressive stubborn evangelizing 
         these people who need more of the so called american dream ...    :wink:  :wink:  :wink:  :wink: 

       am I pro Chinese ...anti American ?   :laughing:  :laughing: 
            I am neither ... and while living in Taiwan I deftly side stepped the political badgering
        between the two main political parties and their zealous adherents ... 

       all the best!
           hoping that your daily living is well and satisfying within your current sitz im leben
        and thankful to the Father, the Son and the Spirit for blessings ...

Now this one if for everyone -

Just a quickie here about C.S. Lewis – as his fundamentalist critic says in the article I posted above, Jack Lewis once famously stated that Jesus was either mad, bad or God – and since the first two alternatives are highly improbable the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that he was/is God. Many have commented that, OK, Jack Lewis was communicating in the vernacular here rather than speaking the technical language of theologians – or the language of imaginative symbol and story in which he excelled most; but this argument is too simplistic in my view. To say that Jesus is simply ‘God’ is not orthodox teaching. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity united with human nature – true God and true Man. So sometimes Jack did oversimplify, as he did when he compared God’s self emptying in the Incarnation to being a bit like if you and I were to voluntarily to become slugs in order to redeem the slugs. Obviously Jack Lewis found slugs revolting – which not everyone does. But even if we buy into his view of slugs, and especially if we do so, this is not an adequate image of the Incarnation. Orthodox teaching is that human beings are made in the image of God – and Christ in becoming man took on human nature in its un-fallen magnificence; and through his life, death and resurrection restored the image of God in all humanity. Well it’s something like this anyway.

The fundamentalist critic wonders why – if Jack Lewis could make the mad, bad or God argument about Jesus’ claims, why not make a similar argument to support the Bible’s claims about itself as being without error. Well, we all know the two passages that fundamentalists cite in order to press this argument – but neither claims the Bible is without errors of detail; they simply claim scripture is inspired by God and authoritative. And both passages are not speaking of the Christian Bible we have today – which did not exist at the time. They are actually speaking about the Jewish Testament. So I always find this food for thought.

Blessings

Dick

And here’s something a friend of mine (a very close friend) wrote about the Bible and progressive revelation :wink:

When people say ‘But the Bible says’ it usually means that they have chosen particular sets of texts that confirm their own prejudices and ignored other texts. The answer to moral questions is different in different books and in different parts of the Bible. For example, ‘love your neighbour’ in Leviticus is bound up with treating your own ethnic cultural group with justice – but not outsiders; for they are abomination. However, in the latter prophets the vision of neighbour is becoming universalized (Amos, for example, attacks this exclusivist stance head on) and Jesus completely universalizes it. So the Bible actually corrects itself.

The Bible is not consistent – it is a text in travail in which the Truth revealed in Jesus of God’s inclusive love only comes slowly into focus. It is on this Truth that we need to base our ethics – ethics that will be rooted in justice, compassion, and recognition of human frailty. Each generation has to rethink ethics for changing times and circumstances. The Bible is an important resource for this – in its general principles – but for specifics we also need the help of tradition (what we can learn from the experience of the history of the Church – both in terms of what we can discard and what we should hold fast to), reason (critical reflection - a good thing since we must love God also with our minds) and reflection on experience (both our direct personal experience and our experience as people of a certain time in history). It is only if we balance the witness of the Bible with these other factors that we can be open to the spirit that gives life against the letter that kills.
Nowhere does the Bible say that it is inerrant or ‘the answer’ – rather it bears witness to Gods’ enduring love for humanity and creation A couple of books in the New Testament say the Bible is inspired by God and that scripture cannot be broken, but these passages refer to the Old Testament – not the Bible that we have today (and for at least one New Testament writer – Jude – the Jewish Scriptures were slightly different to the ones in the Christina Bible because he cites the Book of Enoch as authoritative).The New Testament radically reframes much of the Hebrew Testament, and so I take it that these passages already refer to the spirit rather than the letter of scripture.

I’d say that the Bible was never meant to be the answer to life’s questions. The Bible bears witness to the Truth as experienced in the sacred history of the people of Israel that, for Christians, is fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, to the Truth as it is in Jesus, and to the impact of the Truth of Jesus on the early Church. It bears witness to the Truth – but the Truth is an incarnate Truth; and it is a Truth that needs to be incarnated in our own time.
I find consistency in the gradual revelation of the God of Love in the Bible – but this is a process rather than a set of answers/propositions/logical deductions. We have to live the Truth rather than‘have it’ as a possession in a book.

I just wanted to throw in a few more bits on my take on myth. If I’m derailing the conversation at hand let me know and we can redirect this to another thread. I’ll admit something to you. I have the attention span of a gnat. So if there are long posts I can rarely read the whole thing, and reading the other posts most recently I really have no clue how the bit on Lewis, that prompted me to write my first post, and now what I’m talking about really have to do with the topic at hand. :blush:

But I will continue on with my ramblings. :confused:

I think that myth is used because it is really about every person. Not that those events way back didn’t actually happen, but that the story that God tells, (the magicians story etc, which from henceforth I will call The Framework) is so written in the fabric of our lives (and this is likely because it is written in the Spirit, which has no time) that we place people into the story. Now this is all divinely inspired because its true in Spirit, and the Lord directs our steps. And those events occurred, the question is did they occur as exactly as we understand them? We are all in the grand story. We are all the thing the myths are about. Thats why people love myth and romance and adventure, because thats what they want for their lives, because they know The Framework exists, they just may not know it. The phrase “their’s a God shaped hole in all of us”, would maybe be another way to word The Framework.

Where the author writing about Lewis said that things like the gospels and epistles are more like history, I would agree with that. Probably because the culture had developed to a more “civilized” one. If those people way back were more like children, having not reached yet the rising tide to bring them to that awareness, then you would understand that kids like to watch fairy tales more than the history channel. Its not that Jonah didn’t happen, but what the writer saw as “the story” in the events that did occur. Take Noah. Every culture has a flood story that is remarkably similar. Something did occur IMO. I don’t care in this regard if the entire world was flooded, or a river valley, or a region there was likely something that happened. The pagan versions are much more carnal, and base. That would make sense because they are at a lower level of revelation than Moses. Its not necessarily that they were like teenagers in their mentality, but in their level of revelation of God, the world, science.
[digression] Interestingly Moses would have been brought up in the top scientific household in the world. The priests of Egypt, and all the other pagan nations were the doctors, scholars, scientists etc, and Egypt was said to have the sum of all knowledge that had been passed down from the time of Noah. He was raised in the household of the priesthood. He was well indoctrinated into the Egyptian/Pagan understanding of sacrifice and burnt offerings. This lends weight to what I’ve been sharing on another thread that Charlie Slagle started on the god of the OT, vs Jesus. My view is that God did not tell Israel to literally kill babies. That He never was the God of vengeance. Jesus is the exact imprint of the Father. The entire “law of Moses” is just that, the law of Moses. His mind understood the necessity for sacrifice and burnt offerings and a temple. But later we hear “sacrifice and burnt offerings I did not desire, but a body you have prepared for me”, and “God does not dwell in temples built with human hands”. God told Moses something. He did say make everything according to the pattern shown to you on the mountain. Every other place we see God interfacing with people its in symbols. Abraham was to look at the stars, probably at the zodiac, which is The Framework written in the sky. Our minds cannot comprehend the infinite, so we are given icons of those spiritual truths, to lead us away from our earthly understanding. Unfortunately, we still have that filter called the carnal mind. And those truths have to be translated through that filter. So Moses is looking at something that is hard to put into words, but does anyway. He “knows” that God means they need to literally go kill those women and children, because he has been raised in Egypt and thats what civilized people do. Moses may have been highly “evolved” but was still heavily veiled. And the carnal mind is death. The law is called the law of sin and death. Its called the shadow, which is the same word used in this:
Mat 4:16 KJV - The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow[4639] of death light is sprung up .
(That word shadow is related to the word skene, which is the word for tabernacle!)

What did the light come to do? Set men free from sin and death, what is the power of sin? The law. What is the true law? LOVE. But Moses couldn’t understand it fully, even though he was the representative for the next level of elevation, he still wasn’t crystallized enough to get the full meaning, if he was his name would have been Yeshua. This is what we see with him having to wear a veil to cover the glory. There was a filter that the truth had to go through. Now it is said that a veil lies over their minds when they read Moses to this day. To me that says that the problem in understanding comes not from Moses but from the people reading Moses. But I think Moses is a type of the carnal mind, and his mind filtered the truth of The Framework that Moses saw on the mountain.

One of the things that led me to this conclusion is that Moses died on Mt. Nebo. Nebo is the Babylonian scribe god. Nebo held the books of the law, and was the mediator between the gods and men. He died there right before Israel entered the promised land. He went up on that mountain to view the promised land. Is this coincidence that Moses dies on the mountain of the pagan version of himself? He is even called an elohim. And we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Carnal=Flesh (its the word sarx). Moses could not inherit the kingdom, the promised land. The veiled man cannot enter. Yeshua(Joshua) had to take them in.

Now the greek version of Nebo is Hermes. And there is good evidence that Yeshua was transfigured on Mt. Hermon, which happens to be named for Hermes. So Moses dies on the same mountain in type that Christ first is made alive on (as in
adam-moses all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive). He was pre-resurrected. Shown what the true promised land is. Now this is sort of what seals it for me, that Jesus walked right into, or was placed right in the middle of the pagan framework, and the jewish framework, which btw they were quite similar in imagery, like the cherubim, and temple design, rituals etc. He fulfilled the Jewish and Pagan. Mt. Hermon was known as the mountain of the gods. It was where the gods came down to men. Or where the sons of God came down to men. Its is also called Sion in the Bible. Jesus is the Son of God, and Adam’s family were the sons of God. All of the pagan myth was intertwined and derived from the same truths that the Bible shares. Its just different levels of revelation. For instance Cronus is very likely in part Abraham. He sacrificed his son, but he was saved by a ram. He was circumcised, and that was his “sign”. His other name is Saturn. Which happens to be the name of the day that corresponds to the Sabbath. When the pharisees say we have Abraham for our father, I think its quite ironic that they who were the holy ones separated from all that pagan filth, were basically deifying their patriarch by claiming him over Christ, the exact image of the Father. Abraham was their father. They were so proud of their outward rituals like circumcision, which was never the true form anyway, but a shadow, they were no better than the pagans, for their god was Saturn/Abraham. They had created god in their image, just as Moses had created the law in his own image. Thats what the flesh does. Thats what the religious mind does (remember Moses was raised in the priestly house). It takes the true form, and processes it, and spits it back out in its own image. The Framework is eternal, those symbols like the cherubim, fire, the lamb, the branch, light, Father, Son, Bride; they are always there. The same story is told to all, God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Those who attempt to peer into that invisible world, will always see the same thing, there is One Lord, One God and Father of all. The issue is not the message, but the messenger,

1Cr 13:9 for in part we know, and in part we prophecy;
1Cr 13:10 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless. (just like the law had become useless, why? They had reached the next level of clarity of the message, they could grasp more clearly what The Framework meant)
1Cr 13:11 When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe;
1Cr 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;

That word obscurely, in the KJV translated darkly, is the word enigma. Now that is a very loaded word in the culture of that day. Just like Logos is. It carries a weight with it, because of all the attachment, and history associated with it. The enigma of the sphinx.

So when Paul writes of us trying to peer into that invisible world how do we look? Through a mirror. And when we do we see an enigma (a riddle, who are we? Are we the sphinx, are we the cherubim woven on the veil, are we the person living in the matrix?). That word mirror is esoptron, which is eis(into)+optanomai(to behold something remarkable, which that word is almost exclusively used of seeing the risen Lord!). There is one other use of esoptron in the NT, and its in James, where he says, they peer at their natural face in a mirror and forget what their origin is. The only other use of the word mirror is a derivative word of esoptron and its used when Paul says “and we all with unveiled faces are reflecting the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, we are being transfigured from glory to glory”. Where did the transfiguration take place? Mt. Hermon. The unveiling of our faces (our minds) is what brings us into the full glory, and we reflect the glory of the Lord. We can only reflect the true glory as far as we’ve been crystalized. Jesus was the exact imprint. He was the pure crystal clear mirror, with no veil. The unveiling of Christ in You the hope of glory is what the story was always about. It took place on the mountain of the gods, it is written ye are all gods.

That’s why I say it is we are all part of the grand story. We are all the word made flesh. Just as Christ is so are you in the world. He was the end of the law, the fulfillment of it, the true form of it, the crystal, and we are all being transformed into that glory. I believe He is the fulfillment of the pagan hopes too, which is why he was transformed on Mt. Hermon. Also possibly why the NT is in Greek, just the weight behind words like: Enigma, Logos, Ouranos (heaven), Aster(star). He was also called the morning star which was the name for Venus.

“Gilgamesh passes near Mount Hermon in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where it was called Saria by Sumerians, “Saria and Lebanon tremble at the felling of the cedars”.[5][6] In the Book of Enoch, Mount Hermon is the place where the Grigori (“Watcher”) class of fallen angels descended to Earth. They swore upon the mountain that they would take wives among the daughters of men and take mutual imprecation for their sin (Enoch 6). The mountain or summit is referred to as Saphon in Ugaritic texts where the palace of Baal is located in a myth about Attar.[7][8]
(Attar, also known as Athtar, Astar, and Ashtar is the god of the morning star in western Semitic mythology. In Canaanite legend he attempts to usurp the throne of the dead god Baal but proves inadequate. In semi-arid regions of western Asia he was sometimes worshipped as a rain god. His female counterpart is the Phoenician Astarte. In more southerly regions he is probably known as Dhu-Samani.)”
–Wikipedia–

Isa 14
You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon;

Zaphon=Saphon=Mt. Hermes=the mountain of YHWH=the mountain of the gods

The man in Isa 14 many times called Lucifer is none other than a man, trying to set himself up as the high god. Creating god in his image. This is the image of the beast being installed in the temple, worshipping the graven image of the ark, the physical/shadow, instead of the true reality. In Ezekiel we see the guardian cherub who was cast down from the garden of God. IF the sons of God came down from Mt. Hermon, then Mt. Hermon is probably the location of the garden of God! Where do we see the cherubim? Stationed outside the garden. In Ezekiel, carrying the glory of the Lord. Stationed outside the garden in the temple, on the veil separating the Holy of Holies/aka the garden/aka the promised land. On the ark, which also carries the glory of the Lord. And in Revelation surrounding the throne. They are always seen right in the center of the action. We know that the tribes were set around the camp of Israel with the standards of the heads of the cherubim. Those correspond to the 4 poles of the zodiac, aka The Framework written in the sky. They are also likely the heiroglyph from which the main pagan gods are derived. What is a sphinx? Is it not a cherub? What was the answer to the riddle of the sphinx? (what has 4 legs, 2 legs, and 3 legs) A man is the answer.

When we peer into the mirror to try and see that invisible land, we see an enigma. We are not who we think we are. We see the image of who we are and not past that because we haven’t entered through that final veil(the cherubim woven on it), which is flesh. If we would go further we would see that we were one with Him since the foundation of the world. This is the final level of elevation that we know about now at least, the mystery that was hidden from ages past, the 2 shall become 1. Christ in you, the one new man.

Wow that was a whirlwind. When I said my attention span limited me from reading long posts, it also limits me from keeping to the point. I forgot what I was going to write about at first, and have no idea how I got to this point. :slight_smile:

I’d go back and try and clarify but this took me all day, having to start and stop. I’m sure I’ll remember what I was originally writing about later, then I’ll start to write another post, and take you on a wild goose chase.

Don’t apologise Jeremey - that’s really interesting. Give me a chance to absorb it… we are talking mythopoeia here. That’s a fascinating post… There’s a lot oging on in this thread - history, tholeogy, myth, biography - well it could act as a sorting house for more focussed threads. Let’s have a brainstorm! :smiley:

Well Dick, myth is my favorite subject. I’ve always been fascinated by it. I remember being probably around 12 and reading in my bible about the temple design, and the ark. I was reading some of the study material in my bible about it. There were comparisons between the law of moses and the hammurabi code, the imagery used in the temple, like the cherubim, the bulls, the altar etc. I’d wonder why God would tell them to build things that were pretty much the same as those “bad pagans”. And those cherubim really always got my imagination going, which I think is the point. This is obviously a creature of myth, and thats why myth because it takes you out of this shadow reality into the true reality. And again I don’t mean myth as in false stories, but those that are bigger than just a story, carrying The Framework.

I remembered a couple of the points I was going to make originally in the last post :slight_smile:

The gospel of John is a somewhat mythological account of Jesus’ life. Not that it was untrue, but that it was idealized to do what its purpose was, which was to show that Christ was the fullfillment of the Jewish Myth, and the Pagan Myth. It starts with the logos. Which like I said was a very loaded word. It was already in use in Greek philosophy, and carried very deep meaning with it. Then its the light. Of course this is the overriding theme of all myth, which is light vs. dark, Anakin vs. Vader. Just that alone puts Christ within the realm of pagan myth. But then He’s the lamb. Then He’s the serpent in the wilderness: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

The timing given of His crucifixion differs between John and the synoptics. The reason being is that He needed time to die on the cross, but that time 6:00 would be too close to sundown and everyone would have to go back to their families. 6:00 was the time that the lambs were slaughtered (for the most part, I mean they didn’t have clocks, but you get the point). So Jesus likely was put on the cross at the time in the synoptics 3:00 in literal time. But to fit The Framework, John put it at the ideal time. I believe the order of events was idealized also. Ernest Martin has a great article on this subject. Askelm.com. This isn’t wrong from the mind of the beloved disciple, he was closest to Jesus, he was given Love as his subject, which is the ultimate structure of The Framework, he had his ear on Jesus’ heart. He I believe understood greater than the others what the true reality is. He is also the writer of Revelation, the unveiling of Jesus the Christ. The book of Revelation is all symbols, it is the key IMO to understanding the rest of the bible. It is the cypher. It is the legend for navigating The Framework. So for John to move some minor details around its no big whoop because the point wasn’t to stick to the letter, but to reveal who Jesus really was. He placed Him into the myth. Not that Jesus didn’t really fulfill all those things, I think He did, but that the bigger picture mattered more than some tiny details. AND I think that the contemporary readers would understand this when he starts his letter with the Logos, and the Light. Their ears would perk up, and they would be expecting to read something that wasn’t on the literal level.

I’m going to nerd out on Mt. Hermon just a little bit more mmm kay? So its named for Hermes the messenger god. Hermes had the Caduceus. Which was a pole with serpents wrapped around it. Isn’t it a coincidence that bronze serpent was made in the wilderness, and Jesus likened himself to it? I think not. There was a common symbol that they were derived from, or one was a copy of the other. Obviously I think that they were derived from The Framework.

The cross itself is the symbol of Baal, and of all the sungods. Jesus is likened to the sun. He’s not just another sungod, He is the SonGod. He is the true source of light. Those men that were called gods may have had traits of the Messiah, but they could never be the true Form. They were a shadow, just like the Jewish understanding of the messiah was wrong (and God for that matter), and was a shadow. They saw in The Framework that the messiah would come and kill their enemies. But they didn’t understand He came to kill only one man…adam. And they didn’t realize that their enemy is their ego. They tried to place men into the form, like Barabbas, or other men that were deemed the messiah. These warring men that would save them. But their mind saw death, when He came to give life and that abundantly.

This is one of the foundational reasons I am anti-church hierarchy. People are yearning to be saved from something. They will deify their pastor, their priest, their church leadership etc, unknowingly because thats what people do they mythologize their lives and the lives of others. JFK’s regime is called camelot. Actors are called stars. We have american idols. Doctors. Teachers. Athletes are Hercules, and Mars, and Demeter. Any position of power, or elevation above another man can easily head towards corruption, not always from the leader, but from the “awe” given to that person on that pedestal. We are told to call no man father. I think it has to do with the power that is given to that “father” can cause pride, and the next thing you know that man can become Lucifer, exalting himself above the heights of God. If you keep getting told you are infallible, you may start to believe it. I can tell you this from personal experience. I’m a chiropractor in a small town. I’m kind of like a minor celebrity, on par with a city council member or something like that. I also get to facilitate miraculous changes in peoples health in mere minutes. I literally get called a miracle worker daily. And I have people telling their friends and family about me, most people know me, or have at least heard of me. This can go to your head quickly. I’d like to say that I’ve fulfilled the role thats placed on me by my patients and community all the time, but that is far from the truth. I am so fallible its stupid. I could probably punch some of my patients kids in the face for no reason right in front of them, and they would yell at their kids for hurting my hand :laughing: I don’t deserve that kind of respect. I am just a guy, who is a vessel, who makes too many mistakes. Thankfully God has been working on me and has done a good job of keeping my ego in check. But that beast is still there, thanks be to God through Christ that we have victory though. I’ve really even stopped calling myself doctor to most people, because I don’t want to elevate myself above them, and facilitate that unhealthy relationship. Unfortunately many people really want their doctor to be a god, because of the need for security, which comes from their feeling of fear.

Ok thats enough, I really meant to just write a couple bits, but this whole topic has really allowed me to put pen to paper The Framework I’ve been seeing. And all of this informs my recent decision to dramatically change my lifestyle, as I am trying to walk in the steps of the True Form (not that I think everyone is called to sell everything they own, and go about literally healing the sick and feeding the poor). And be refined and crystalized so that my life reflects His. I think I’m placing myself in the myth. I am trying to answer the call of who I am called to be. BTW I don’t think I am The Savior, but a savior. Just as Christ is so are you in the world.

One final word, seriously this time :wink: with what I’ve said in the past few posts, I want to state that I still hold to the entire Bible (or most of it besides minor additions) being reliable, and useful for correction, reproof, and teaching. I believe God uses our understanding of The Framework for good. Even though I don’t think He really wanted all 613 literal laws,(sacrifice and burnt offering I did not desire) He told something to Moses and what we have written is a shadow of the reality. But it still points to the reality. The true form is the point, and God can work with Moses’ limited understanding.
–the letter kills, but the spirit gives life–

Jeremy

Greetings !

    Since it would take much more time, effort and trying to learn how to put applause smileys here...

  I will take a more convenient way   <applause>  <many people applause>   
   Jeremy and Dick ...  Your posts make this topic a marvelous adventure while climbing up 
     the side of the mountain ( in this case ...  Mount Ali or in pinyin Ali Shan )
   really early in the morning before even the crack of dawn to view the Sunrise in all 
       of its splendor and awe inspiring radiant brilliant light from the Sun 
    While I was living in Taiwan ... this was one of the tourist attractions that attracted lots of people...
     Drive to Ali Shan which was located in middle of the island but on the southern side instead of 
   in the middle on the northern side ...   :stuck_out_tongue: 
     Stay in a really cold cold Hotel room without any central heating at all... 
   -- that is IF the tourist did this during the Winter season or during the Chinese New Year time..
   which usually falls at the end of January or the beginning of February ...

    Most places in Taiwan do not have any central heating at all ... neither the k-12 schools
       nor the Universities either --- especially the classrooms including kindergartens as well..
     even McDonalds will have their darn A/C blowing during the Winter season ...   :exclamation: 
     so once I put on a Parka and went and sat inside ... with it on .. just to look foolish and strange
      so that the Manager or Asst Manager would come over to me and ask ... 
     Are you cold ?   ( actually they would most likely ask what the puck are ya doing wearin that in here?)
     but my American sarcasm was never understood ...  :wink:  :wink: 

    So during University class time ... The students and teachers needed to wear enough to keep
      from shivering -- and during the break times .. the Foreigners (us English teachers ) would 
    try to prohibit the students from opening all of the windows ... but these students stubbornly
     insisted on "letting "fresh air" inside so that they would not perish due to the "stale air" within the room
    of course we ( the English teachers ) could never fathom how the 'polluted' air outside was 'fresh'   :laughing: 

    Thus traveling to Ali Shan and arriving at late evening ... then checking into the Hotel rooms 
       which had all of the windows open ... letting in the "freezing cold air " which was supposed to be
     "fresh"   -- if you look at the World Map and find Taiwan it will not seem like a place to have
       such cold air ..  Shanghai or Beijing certainly has much more cold temperature than Taipei ...
     but due to the humidity and the cold Wind ... it definitely feels damn Cold !   :laughing: 

     Then at 3.30 am people get up ...get dressed ( never could understand how they did it too ...
        since I just slept with mine on ... sheeeeesh )   
       next, the entire mass of people would congregate in the large mess hall like place...
       to eat ...  of course...  Taiwanese style breakfast ...  which I never got used to after 22 years of it ..
        -- I will need to find a good way to share photos some day .. --
      Then people would mosey along to get on a small train like something from a large amusement park ...
        then chug chug chug up the mountain to reach a sunrise viewpoint ...
        everyone trying to budge their way around to get a better vantage point for viewing the sunrise...

      Should it be partly cloudy that morning ...well..  tough luck in having a spectacular sunrise experience ..
      on the breathtaking cloudless mornings that the Ads presented for the Marketing guys ...
        it is definitely awesome !

      What does this have to do with Jeremy and Dick's posts?   
          To share my appreciation and admiration for their Passion in expressing their Framework and 
         ideas, paradigms and thoughts concerning this topic concerning History ...  

        Eagerly looking forward to more gems, emeralds, rubies, sapphires coming from you guys
         and awaiting any other posts ...  

         all the best !

This is such a charming thread – a lovely holiday of a thread. What splendid posts! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Greetings :smiley:

Here is another fascinating and illuminating quote ..   
     from ...  

Furthermore, everyone has a canon within a canon–including Justin. Everyone has what Richard Beck calls a regulating text–a Scripture passage or a theological concept that becomes the lens through which they view the rest of Scripture. Over time, this text or concept often becomes a non-negotiable, the foundation on which we (wittingly or not) build the rest of our theology. Justin attempts to frame this as a debate between those who have regulating texts (his opponents) and those who don’t (people like him). But that can’t possibly be true. Otherwise he wouldn’t be in the Reformed camp, which prioritizes a certain group of texts in the same way Arminians prioritize another group of texts. Justin even quotes one of his regulating texts, “‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (Romans 9:14). What he doesn’t happen to mention is that Paul quotes this verse (Exodus 33:19) in the midst of a broader discussion about the wideness of God’s mercy. In other words, Paul is arguing against the very sort of exclusive theology Justin promotes. Ironically, Paul’s argument culminates in what has become a regulating text for many Universalists: “For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all” (Romans 11:32). This leaves one to wonder who is actually ignoring the details of Scripture…

     [hellboundthemovie.com/a-resp ... -response/](http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/a-response-to-justin-taylors-response/)

   then Tally Ho!

To take the concept of a “canon within a canon” a step further, I would add that for Justin’s opponents, this isn’t simply a matter of playing off one set of texts against another. For them, the ultimate canon within the canon isn’t a text at all. It’s a person–Jesus. In John 14:9, Jesus says, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.” I think even Justin will agree that the Bible portrays Jesus as the perfect revelation of God. Therefore, he becomes the “Rosetta Stone” that allows us to decode the rest of Scripture. So if we see horrific acts attributed to God in the Old Testament, ***rather than say, “Well, I can’t see how dashing infants’ heads upon rocks is consistent with enemy love, but if the Bible says it, I believe it,***” we should test such assertions against the character and teachings of Christ. Are they consistent? If not, rather than shrug and say, “Well, I guess God’s ways are higher than our ways, his thoughts higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9)” (which is also, BTW, stated in the mist of an argument for inclusion rather than exclusion), we should stop and consider that perhaps some of the actions attributed to God in the Bible may themselves be the sort of human projection that Justin detests so much. Of course, this opens up a much broader discussion on competing theories of inspiration. I think Justin and I have a pretty significant disagreement on this level, but that’s an argument for another day. (I do have a few things to say about that subject here.)

      This is another intriguing example of how "proof texting" or using a huge Roller ( you know those 
     machines that have very very heavy circular wheel on the front mashing the newly poured asphalt
       on roads and highways / freeways .. )  flattening all of the Biblical text onto one large cookie pan ..
    regardless of literary genre or authorship or time or the original sitz im leben or situational setting ...

     the comments directly above belong to the highlighted text ... not the very interesting paragraphs...

Finally, I take it from Justin’s comments that he has little or no regard for experience as a means of revelation. He downplays so-called “horizontal reasoning” in favor of top-down approach. As I’ve described in a previous post, our theology is the product of four main sources: Scripture, reason, tradition and experience. Depending where you live on the theological spectrum, you will tend to prioritize one or more of these sources over the others, but taken together, they function as a form of checks and balances. Going back to experience as a means revelation, if humans truly are created in the image of God, then our direct experience of something like parent-child relationships has a lot to tell us about our relationship with God. Granted, we “see through a glass darkly” (1 Cor. 13:12), but rather than discourage us from projecting that experience onto God, we should instead take it as an encouragement to believe that God’s love for his children far overwhelms our own puny feelings. In fact, Jesus encourages us to do just that:

the link ----   is here ....

[hellboundthemovie.com/by-what-authority/](http://www.hellboundthemovie.com/by-what-authority/)

Now I am not copying this portion of his article to agree or concur wholeheartedly with it ...  :wink:  :wink:  :wink: 

     but it certainly gives more insightful reasoning into hermeneutics and how differing perspectives
      express their viewpoints ... 

    all the best !

Greetings!

Wow...  If you continue reading into the lengthy comment section of the link ... response to Justin

  then you will surely observe and notice what I did ... lots of cantankerous words towards each other ...
  this is one of the main reasons I finally got toooooo tired of being involved in discussions of this sort online...
 The proverbial straw that broke the elephant's back ( i know it is camel but using elephant is more poignant)
    was when the Moderators and Owners of several Christian Yahoo discussion groups 
    decided it was their turn to emulate "The Shoot Out at the OK Corral "  sheeeeeeeeeeesh.....

  In one Yahoo group discussion all of these Mods and Owners were jumping in and well... never mind...
  
  Calvinists are not Evil .. nor Monsters .. and neither are the others too...
    how do I know ?  Well if researching Church History for decades is not enough .. well.. then I will laugh ...

   If anyone wishes to pick the meat from the bone .. I can do this also ....   :wink: 
  When we get to the Creeds..  :sunglasses:  :sunglasses:  :sunglasses:   Then we can open the closet and see how many skeletons are inside...

   So I will repeat one of my previous perspectives ...
      The NT Writers along with those modern Theologians I have mentioned ... 
     are writing with the same Passion about their Theological, Spiritual, Life Experience ....

      Since I find it very difficult to accept "Myth" in the manner of Bultmann & Co.  ( my nickname for all of it )
      and find it rather challenging to deal with ... at this time in my Life ... those super detailed 
     supposedly exhaustive Narrative or Literary interpretative perspectives ... 

     I then decided to opt for this perspective instead...   To me it is extremely challenging to really
      understand "exactly" what Paul was trying to communicate to the Churches in Modern Day Turkey ..
      and from memory only .. someone fell out of the window while listening to Paul ...  :wink:  :wink: 

    Even though Paul and his Damascus road experience or the visions he hints about in Corinthian correspondence
      still James, Luke, Peter and others also surely had their special Spiritual experience with God ...

      I prefer to give warm affectionate bear hugs now instead of engaging in "Zealous Fencing " with another ..

     Thus I really enjoy this forum for the Active Considerate behavior within the midst of divergent ideas...

     all the best!

Btw we get the word hermeneutics from Hermes. :wink:

Mysteries. The mystery religions all had the same setup, and what so many don’t realize is that the setup is the same as Judaism/Christianity. There were levels of revelation. Like the Masons. They are definitely patterned after the mysteries. Outer court, inner court, holy of holies. This same progressive revelation was present.

Sanchonthian said that the answer or final revelation to the pagan mysteries was that the gods were men. And here is what I consider to be one of the big dividing lines between pagan and Christian, (not withstanding, actually having a relationship with Christ), is that they have the same story but they are mirror images of each other. You know those pictures of buildings or a mountain where there is a perfect reflection in the water. You see the same image, but they go in opposite directions. Up is down for the mirror reflection. Well I see that principle in a lot of stories. For instance, in the movie The Matrix. The higher world, the real world is the post-apocalyptic nightmare world. The matrix is the veil, or as Morpheus says the wool pulled over their eyes. Which I could go into much just about that statement but will try and stay on topic. But the opposite is true. The real matrix is this natural world we live in. The higher reality is the invisible world. When you peer behind the curtains in this story you see the beautiful world, not the nightmare. The nightmare is the world we live in.

Ok back to the mysteries. The pagan secret is that the gods are men. The biblical secret is that God dwells in men, or better worded, Christ in you is the hope of glory. The two shall become one flesh, this is a great mystery concerning Christ and the church. The kingdom of heaven is inside. Don’t you know you are the temple of the living God?

When I just wrote look behind the curtain it made me think of the wizard of oz. Wow that movie is a great representation of what I’m saying. The god, was actually just a man behind the curtain pulling levers. But on another level Oz is like The Framework, and it being the invisible world, puts it more on a correct understanding of the two worlds than the matrix. The kingdom (of Oz) is inside you (Dorothy). Oh man I have a feeling I’m going to be watching a lot of movies in the near future.

Jeremy – what you are saying is fascinating and tallies well with the mythic concerns of C.S. Lewis and, indeed, of the Renaissance Christian Humanists who were keen on drawing parallels between the Gospels and their prefiguration in pagan myths. And it’s lovely to have two biographies melding with True Myth on this thread.

Also what you are saying reminds me very much of the books of Margaret Barker, the biblical scholar who writes about mythology and the Bible – her are controversial but her views are widely respected as groundbreaking. She suggests very compellingly that a lot of the Cosmology found in the Bible stems from the imagery, rites, and traditions connected with the First Temple (and a major source she uses in her research is the Book of Enoch, quoted in the Epistle of Jude, but never included in the canon of our Bible). She speaks, for example, about how the Temple was a symbolic model of the universe (a microcosm), and how the understanding of the cosmos in first Temple Judaism/Hebraism was that everything in the visible world corresponded to an entity, event etc, in the unseen, spiritual world. Whereas in the Second Temple the Holy of Holies – the place where the visible and invisible worlds meet – was an empty space, in the First Temple it was filled by the Cherubim throne. On this an angelic being, one like a ‘Son of Man’, would be enthroned – that is the Priest King of Israel. With sacrifices performed, the Priest King would pass through the veil separating the Holy of Holies from the outer courts as an angelic messenger from the unseen world carrying the blood of a lamb representing the life blood of Yahweh, sacrificed to bring atonement with and between the people of the covenant. By performance of this ritual the fruitfulness of creation and justice between people was restored. The walls of the temple were adorned with paintings and ornaments representing a garden. So the temple was in a sense the Garden of Eden where Adam the Priest King representing the people would take on the sins of the people and as the angelic messenger who passes through the veil bring forth the healing life blood of Yahweh. So Eden and Judgement happen in the same place in sacred time. But she argues that the difference between pagan myth and the myth/liturgy of the first Temple is that it is Yahweh who gives his life blood to the people and not the other way round

Margaret Barker also argues that the liturgy of the first temple is assumed in the New Testament and provides the pattern behind the Gospel narratives and the liturgies in Paul’s epistles – and that the Garden of the Resurrection is the same as Eden but with peace and justice restored, and likewise that the angel of the Resurrection is the same as the Angel who guards Eden – but the flaming sword has been cast aside in a gesture of ‘welcome back’ to humanity.

Blessings to you and Hothorsegz (and I’m still charmed by the both of you - keep posting! :smiley: :smiley: )

Dick

Greetings !

 To make it easier and to make it more personal ..  I will use my name too  
     so jim ( aka hothorsegz )  it is ...   <img src="/uploads/default/original/1X/15680453330e74f929b585a237613f0bdf61e069.gif" width="15" height="17" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green"/> 

  Thanks so much for two intriguing posts about Myth as seen from what you are studying and researching 
     ( applause )  ( applause )

  I also found while reading CS Lewis adult triology some fascinating intuitive insights concerning
    the possible connection between "black holes" and those Eldil in the story line ....
 It seems from recent TV shows discussing the function and behavior of "black holes"
   that every Galaxy has one at its center ...   

     I have very little idea what was in CS Lewis mind while  he was writing his adult triology ...
   so I am only presenting how my active imagination was connecting these two phenomena together .. :wink:  :wink: 

     Especially the Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra ... 

     Out of the Silent Planet (1938), set mostly on Mars (Malacandra). In this book Elwin Ransom voyages to Mars and discovers that Earth is exiled from the rest of the solar system. Far back in Earth's past, it fell to an angelic being known as the Bent Oyarsa, and now, to prevent contamination of the rest of the Solar System ("The Fields of Arbol"), it is known as "the silent planet" (Thulcandra).

      Ransom gets much information on cosmology from the Oyarsa (presiding angel) of Malacandra, or Mars. Maleldil, the son of the Old One, ruled the Field of Arbol, or solar system, directly. But then the Bent One (the Oyarsa of Earth) rebelled against Maleldil and all the eldila (similar to the Valar in Tolkien's Silmarillion) of Deep Heaven (outer space). In response to this act, the Bent One suffered confinement on Earth where he first inflicted great evil. Thus he made Earth a silent planet, cut off from the Oyéresu of other planets, hence the name 'Thulcandra', the Silent Planet, which is known throughout the Universe. Maleldil tried to reach out to Thulcandra and became a man to save the human race. According to the Green Lady, Tinidril (Mother of Perelandra, or Venus), Thulcandra is favored among all the worlds, because Maleldil came to it to become a man.

In the Field of Arbol, the outer planets are older, the inner planets newer.
Earth will remain a silent planet until the end of the great Siege of Deep Heaven against the Oyarsa of Earth. The siege starts to end (with the Oyéresu of other worlds descending to Earth) at the finale of the Trilogy, That Hideous Strength. But there is still much to happen until the fulfillment of what is predicted in the Book of Revelation, when the Oyéresu put an end to the rule of the Bent Eldil and, on the way, smash the Moon to fragments. This, in turn, will not be “The End of the World”, but merely “The Very Beginning” of what is still to come.

     The eldila (singular eldil) are super-human extraterrestrials. The human characters in the trilogy encounter them on various planets, but the eldila themselves are native to interplanetary and interstellar space ("Deep Heaven"). They are barely visible as pillars of faint, shifting light.

         :wink:  :wink:   Now for my imaginative insights ( which by the way remain imaginative -- no need for Astrophyics or Astronomers to ceremoniously bop me on my noggin -- I do know the difference )

    In the story line ... also have significant power over their own planets too ...  being barely visible as 
     pillars of faint, shifting light makes them as Angels in another way of speaking ...   
   Along the lines of black holes which have extreme amount of power over a particular Galaxy there 
     could be a Mythological connection between eldila --- concerning this extreme amount of power ... 

     Certain very powerful eldila, the Oyéresu (singular Oyarsa), control the course of nature on each of the planets of the Solar System (similar to the Valar in The Silmarillion). They (and maybe all the eldila) can manifest in corporeal forms. The title Oyarsa seems to indicate the function of leadership, regardless of the leader's species; when the Perelandran human Tor assumes rule of his world, he styles himself "Tor-Oyarsa-Perelendri" (presumably "Tor, Ruler of Perelandra").

       as for a Holy of Holies imagery ... when Tor assumes rule of is world...
      the dramatic breath-taking suspenseful climatic scene where this takes place has lots of imagery
        in connection with Holyl of Holies ceremony ...   

The eldila are science-fictionalized depictions of angels, immortal and holy, with the Oyéresu perhaps being angels of a higher order. (As Lewis implies in Chapter 22 of Out of the Silent Planet, the name Oyarsa was suggested by Oyarses, the name given in Bernard Silvestris's Cosmographia to the governors of the celestial spheres. Bernard's word was almost certainly a corruption—or a deliberate alteration—of Greek οὐσιάρχης [ousiarches, "lords of being"], used with the same meaning in the Hermetic Asclepius.) The eldila resident on—actually, imprisoned in—Earth are "dark eldila", fallen angels or demons. The Oyarsa of Earth, the "Bent One", is Satan. Ransom later meets the Oyéresu of both Mars and Venus, who are described as being masculine (but not actually male) and feminine (but not actually female), respectively. The Oyarsa of other worlds have characteristics like the Classical Gods, the Oyarsa of Jupiter gives a feeling of merriment.

Hnau is a word in the Old Solar language which refers to “sentients” such as Humans. In the book, the Old Solar speaker specifies that God is not hnau, and is unsure whether Eldila (immortal angelic beings) can be termed “hnau”, deciding that if they are hnau, they are a different kind of hnau than Humans or Martians.
The term was adopted by some other people, including Lewis’ friend J. R. R. Tolkien, who used the term in his (unpublished during his lifetime) The Notion Club Papers - distinguishing hnau from beings of pure spirit or spirits able to assume a body (which is not essential to their nature). Similarly, a character in James Blish’s science fiction novel A Case of Conscience wonders whether a particular alien is a hnau, which he defines as having “a rational soul”.
In recent times the term has been used by some philosophers, for example in Thomas I. White’s “Is a Dolphin a Person?”, where he asks if Dolphins are persons, and if such, if they can also be reckoned as hnau: that is sentient beings of the same level as humans.
Other uses of the term include the term as used by some Christians[citation needed]: here as with Tolkien’s use of the term “hnau” refers to sentient beings possessing independent will, and thus by extension a soul.

      The creative imaginative writing of an Author then has multi-valent aspects which create a 
  spider-web like effect touching many other authors who take up the pen to write ...   

    The cosmology of all three books—in which the Oyéresu of Mars and Venus somewhat resemble the corresponding gods from classical mythology—derives from Lewis's interest in medieval beliefs. Lewis discusses these in his book The Discarded Image (published much later than the Ransom Trilogy). Lewis was intrigued with the ways medieval authors borrowed concepts from pre-Christian religion and science and attempted to reconcile them with Christianity, and with the lack of a clear distinction between natural and supernatural phenomena in medieval thought. The Space Trilogy also plays on themes in Lewis's essay "Religion and Rocketry", which argues that as long as humanity remains flawed and sinful, our exploration of other planets will tend to do them more harm than good. Furthermore, much of the substance of the argument between Ransom and Weston in Perelandra is found in Lewis's book Miracles. Links between Lewis's Space Trilogy and his other writings are discussed at great length in Michael Ward's Planet Narnia and in Kathryn Lindskoog's C.S. Lewis: Mere Christian.[3]

J.R.R. Tolkien was a friend and sometime mentor to Lewis. In That Hideous Strength, Lewis alludes several times to Tolkien’s Atlantean civilization Numinor (spelt Númenor by Tolkien), saying in the foreword “Those who would like to learn further about Numinor and the True West must (alas!) await the publication of much that still exists only in the MSS. of my friend, Professor J. R. R. Tolkien.” Villains in both Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings cycle and here are very hostile toward the natural world (specifically in the wanton destruction of trees in Tolkien’s and the manipulation of life in Lewis’s).

        more coming soon... on the other two ...  :wink: 

   Thus there is ample room for plenty of thought here without the need of "Fencing" to "rightly divide the (sic) word..."
 :wink:  :wink:  :wink: 

      Through passionate enthusiasm for expressing, elucidating and sharing concepts, ideas and paradigms
     we can experience the sociological phenomena of what Lewis and others had during their meetings 
     of which was called "Inklings"   Tolkien had a role to play in aiding Lewis to enter into Christianity too...
     I recall Andre and SD33---  one is considering to walk out .. and one is discouraged ... 

       It might be that both of them being in the midst of "Fencing" to "rightly divide the (sic) word...
      and the incessant bickering among those who wish to exercise "authoritative clout" over others...
     makes for a dark stormy evening as both of them are walking along the road .... or in a place...

       Whereas -- when there is more than enough "Light" and the dialogue is filled with friendly warmth
      for each other --  where there is only a "shadow" cast upon the wooden walls of a Tavern 
      ( meaning a place where fellowship takes place while eating, drinking and the Grand Dance is taking place )

      the "shadow" on the wooden walls are a constant reminder that unless there is more than enough 
   "Light" shining around and surrounding everyone with its warmth and energy ... 
   then the atmosphere and environment turns back into becoming a Cimmerian, aphotic, atramentous
       cheerless, gloomy scene from Lewis triology and also as seen in his book -- The Great Divorce
     where the bodiless ghost like figures meander around or become bothersome annoying spirits...

      ( which is another reason --- I am an Egalitarian -- shameless plug -- :stuck_out_tongue:  :stuck_out_tongue:  :stuck_out_tongue: 

      Christian community should embrace Inclusion before Exclusion ... 
          should embrace Open Source before Proprietary closed system ... 
        ( example .. Linux as contrasted with Microsloft  :wink:  :wink:  as with Apple too or Oracle or Intel et al... )

       should focus on maximizing the warm hearted fellowship with social activities which integrate 
        every individual particularity in the pursuit of exhibiting the Unity which is connected 
        via the "bonding" of diversity ---  (bonding meaning the intense interpersonal interaction 
         between mother and new born baby --- along with the 'bonding' with the father too )

        social activities --  meaning NOT those that take place within the confines of a Church bldg...!
      while I was in Seminary it was a stunning statistic presented to the students ...
         after (so called ) conversion the new convert's number of "outside" social contacts diminished 
      quite suddenly ... leaving the question open ... who to evangelize next ????

       I would much rather spend my social time engaged in a social activity where a group of people 
        gathered together to enjoy and experience the personal (singularity) & social (unity) 
        interaction while "doing" something ... doing what ?   the possibilites are virtually endless...

        Instead of getting together with other "foreigners" or expats at the local Pub, Bar or Restaurant
       engaged with the typical "Westernized" style of slap sticking, high fiving, beer drinking 
         "yellow" jokes ( meaning sex jokes -- yellow jokes are chinese slang )

        or just to get together to experience the previous Cultural milieu that has greatly diminished 
          while living in a "foreign" country ...   

        Ransom had a bewildering time while in Perelandra .. but then later upon reflective musings 
        sorely missed his living experience there ... with the other celestial sentient beings ...

      getting together within the confines of a Church bldg for the sake of said "morning service"
         attempting to have Unity while at the same time expressing Singularity ...
        there seems to be a sense of cognitive dissonance at times ...   with each segment of the Service 
        trying to follow a predetermined order of events ... with a persistent over shadowing of 
        Hierarchical "authoritative clout "  

        now of course, I am exaggerating for the sake of emphasis .. because I certainly have no intention
       of dissing Sunday morning services .. simply due to the social phenomena that takes place there ...
         along with the spiritual experience too....

          however, I have definitely noticed and observed that Church meetings are stuck in a bldg...
        even those that are called "Retreats"  .......

       During this summer .. I decided to put a lot of passion towards encouraging the Hospital staff
         to get together for social activities to enhance their English learning skills .. while at the same
     time to increase their confidence, comfy zone and listening ability with me ... 
          in which there was a friendly warm hearted environment which came from my passion 
            to do so ... we went to Zhuhai .. and had a Camping trip ..  we went to another distant location
         to have fun on a sandy beach .. numerous Staff accepted my invitation to visit me in my localized
        area.. for a bicycle ride which took 4 hours ... the Dragon Boat Holiday we went to another location
           to pretend we were in a Dragon Boat race ... sitting in one of those specially designed boats
          and trying to use the paddles as fast as we could .. then went to a Lichee orchard to pick Lichees..

         during all of these social activities .. I invested much energy and effort to ignite .. to spark..
         to attempt to "draw out" each person's social skills and Natural abilities...
            most, if not all foreigners who are "teaching" prefer to follow the traditional method of teaching
         and when engaged in any English activity that would be outside .. just switch to behaving 
         as any other "foreigner" would do in that particular social setting ... 
           
        I tried to invite many Church members to have social activities in the past ...
           however, the focus of attention was .. we need to gather together for the purpose of 
         worship, bible study , prayer meeting, Sunday service (which is most important ... )

        more coming soon ...   :wink: 

   all the best !

Just remembered …
if anyone has never read any of Cheeseburger Brown’s stories … you should try … :smiley:
especially the Christmas Robots … which has a very poignant ending for community too… :mrgreen:

cheeseburgerbrown.com/Free_Stories.html

       psssssssst Christmas Robots ...

all the best !