God Is Not The Author Of Evil

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God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:45 am

When the orthodox Reformer says that God ordains something He means: either God directly causes something or that He permits something (evil) to happen. This isn't God speaking with a forked tongue (whatever that means). Rather it is a truth taught in scripture. God doesn't directly cause evil. For this would make Him the author of evil. Rather He permits it (for morally sufficient reasons) to bring about His overall plans and purposes. His permitting evil it is a kind of indirect causing. That is, His permission is a kind of secondary causing not a direct causing. For example: Satan gets permission from God to torment Job. God allowed Satan to take Job's family and make Job sick. Yet Job says, "The Lord has given and the Lord has taken away" and "Shall we recieve good from God and shall we not recieve evil" - to which the writer responds: "In all this Job did not sin with his lips". As Theodore Beza has stated:

Nothing happens anyhow or without God's most righteous decree, although God is not the author or sharer in any sin at all. Both His power and goodness are so great and so incomprehensible, that at a time when He applies the devil or wicked men in achieving some work, whom He afterward justly punishes, He Himself none the less effects His Holy work well and justly.


When God permits evil He has morally sufficient reasons for doing so. That is, God's intentions are good, Satan's intentions are evil. One act - two intentions. What Satan means for evil God means for good.
Last edited by Michael_Cole on Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby johnnyparker » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:05 am

Cole

My friend. I'm sure you are sincerely trying to defend the Calvinist doctrine you think you must subscribe to (for whatever reason) at this present time.

May I ask you a very simple, straightforward question regarding the quotation from Theodore Baza (of whom I have not heard, and know nothing about). Mr Baza says:

Michael_Cole wrote:Nothing happens anyhow or without God's most righteous decree, although God is not the author or sharer in any sin at all.


So, "nothing happens" without "God's most righteous decree". Right? Which surely, in plain English, means that everything that happens is righteously decreed by God. Agreed?

But how then, if everything that happens is decreed by God, can it be true that God is not the author of sin? If I commit murder, and that act of murder was righteously decreed by God as you and Theo say it is, then it is a logical certainty that God decreed a sinful act. Unless suddenly murder isnt' a sin? Or unless God didn't decree the act of murder. In which case some things do indeed happen without God's righteous decree ...

You will forgive me if I am a tad confused here.

Shalom

Johnny
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:37 am

God doesn't directly cause evil. For this would make Him the author of evil.


IF God does not directly cause evil, and evil happens without God's knowledge, or power. Then your God is weak and evil has overcome.

To be the Creator of all things, includes everything, and Scripture says specifically, the only thing not Created is Himself. To be creator of Evil, does not make Him evil since He Himself does not do evil. Like the men created the gunpowder, doesn't make him the murderer of millions who use it in guns to kill each other.

A proper understanding of non-concrete ideas needs to be understood. Else you just look foolish. God is indeed the Author of Evil.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:07 am

I don't know what else to say. I explained it in the OP. God permits evil. This is a type of secondary causing since God knows all the factors involved and what effects they will have and He could prevent any outcome. His permission is an indirect causing not a direct causing. God doesn't coerce sin.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:41 am

If God did not create sin and evil, then who did? To say that either man or Satan created it is to tread into the realm of dualistic theology. Even though the theological proclamation of dualism may be absent from such a theology, it is definitely asserting itself in psychological terms.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:46 am

God simply removes His restraing hands of grace off of the hearts of people and the desire for sin is given birth. When people sin they are acting according to their own wills and evil desires.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:48 am

Michael_Cole wrote:God simply removes His restraing hands of grace off of the hearts of people and the desire for sin is given birth. When people sin they are acting according to their own wills and evil desires.


That's not answering the question. It's just an attempt at a "chicken or the egg" dodge.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:50 am

I don't see how.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:51 am

Let's distill it a bit

Eric Fry wrote:If God did not create sin and evil, then who did? .
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:54 am

Let me suggest you go back and re-read what I've already stated. The desire for sin was given birth when God removed His restaining hands of grace off of Satan's heart. Satan then sinned of his own will, acting according to his own evil desires.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:57 am

Michael_Cole wrote:I don't see how.


If you can't see how your response didn't answer the question of, "Who created sin and evil", then it would stand to reason that you believe sin and evil either a) do not exist, or b) that sin and evil were pre-existent and un-created by God, which is purely dualistic theology.

Let me suggest that you go back and figure out whether or not Satan was a created being, and exactly who created the evil desires that were in his heart.


I really think that you're just being completely disingenuous.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby pilgrim » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:12 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:Let me suggest you go back and re-read what I've already stated. The desire for sin was given birth when God removed His restaining hands of grace off of Satan's heart. Satan then sinned of his own will, acting according to his own evil desires.


But if Satan sinned of his own will, who created a 'satan' WITH such a will? God created satan to be exactly what satan is. If He did not, then He is not fully in charge.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:42 pm

God is in charge when He permits evil. This is a type of secondary causing since God knows all the factors involved and what effects they will have and He could prevent any outcome. His permission is an indirect causing not a direct causing.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby pilgrim » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:04 pm

No. God created satan to perform exactly as he does (according to your view). Satan had no choice, neither did Adam, no-one has any choice. God is entirely responsible. But even if this were not true and God were only indirectly responsible, so what?
If I throw a child into a bear pit and it is savaged, I suppose the fact that I was the indirect cause of his death removes from me all culpability.
I get it.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:12 pm

No. You obviously don't know my view. Satan was created good. Then God removed His hands of grace off his heart (for morally sufficient reasons) and the desire for sin was given birth. Satan then acted according to his own evil desires.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:47 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:No. You obviously don't know my view. Satan was created good. Then God removed His hands of grace off his heart (for morally sufficient reasons) and the desire for sin was given birth. Satan then acted according to his own evil desires.


And you still haven't answered where that evil came from. Did Satan create them himself? Or was it a part of the totality of creation?

If you say Satan created that evil, then you are functioning as a dualist, since the creation of something as far-reaching and pervasive as evil would be a function of a godlike power.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:58 pm

I did answer the question. About five times now.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:12 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:I did answer the question. About five times now.



No, not once have you given a simple, honest answer to a very simple question. You dance and dodge, and then you whine like a schoolgirl when someone holds your feet to the fire for your intellectual dishonesty. And the truth of the matter is that the only person that you're really being dishonest to is yourself

It's a very simple, one-word answer to the question, "Who, exactly, created the evil desire in Satan's heart?"
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:16 pm

God doesn't create evil in anybody's heart. He removes His hand of grace off of the heart and evil desires are given birth. You seem to have alot of hate in your heart.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:God doesn't create evil in anybody's heart. He removes His hand of grace off of the heart and evil desires are given birth. You seem to have alot of hate in your heart.


And now you start with the ad hominems, when you know absolutely nothing about me. But, by all means, deflect blame upon me, rather than try to defend your own confusing position.

These desires are given birth/created how and by whom?

John 1:3, NASB "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

If God was not the one that created evil, then the only alternative that remains is that evil does not exist. That is an extremely difficult position to take and defend.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:37 pm

As Norman Geisler states it:

Evil is not a thing or substance. Rather it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made. Evil is a deprivation of some particular good. The essence of this position is summarized:

1. God created every substance.
2. Evil is not a substance (but a privation in a substance).
3. Therefore, God did not create evil.

Evil is not a substance but a corruption of the good substances God made. Evil is like rust to a car or rot to a tree. It is a lack in good things, but it is not a thing in itself. Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:57 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:As Norman Geisler states it:

Evil is not a thing or substance. Rather it is a lack or privation of a good thing that God made. Evil is a deprivation of some particular good. The essence of this position is summarized:

1. God created every substance.
2. Evil is not a substance (but a privation in a substance).
3. Therefore, God did not create evil.

Evil is not a substance but a corruption of the good substances God made. Evil is like rust to a car or rot to a tree. It is a lack in good things, but it is not a thing in itself. Evil is like a wound in an arm or moth-holes in a garment. It exists only in another but not in itself.


Norman Geisler is illogical, and that is a faulty syllogism. Rust and rot are things that exist, in and of themselves, as are wounds and damage caused by moths. To extend that faulty syllogism to evil is to vastly underrate and devalue the evil that is done on earth. To claim that evil is not a substance (or substantive) makes it illogical to claim that good is substantive. To reverse that syllogism and claim that good is simply a privation in the substantiveness of evil is a claim that few people would make, but for Geisler's syllogism to actually work, then it must work in the negative as well.

If good = 1 and evil = -1, then to remove any amount of good only takes us to 0 at best. To claim that evil instead = 0 and not -1 creates the falsehood of the excluded middle of neutrality (0.)

All of those logical fallacies fit in well with Calvinist doctrine, but, then, Calvinist doctrine has never been logically defensible. It is nothing more than an appeal to the emotions of fear and anger.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:07 pm

I'm convinced that you are delusional. Calvinism isn't based on fear or anger. You're the one who doesn't know how to carry a normal conversation on with someone.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:15 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:I'm convinced that you are delusional. Calvinism isn't based on fear or anger. You're the one who doesn't know how to carry a normal conversation on with someone.


More ad hominems from someone that we could deduce knows how to carry on a conversation. And, this isn't a conversation, it's a debate, (by the very nature of the topic you presented and where you presented it), and if you can't handle defending your position in a debate, then maybe you should find another pastime.

If Calvinism isn't based on emotions, then, by all means, please demonstrate its basis in logic that cannot be easily refuted.

The real question that I'm trying to get at (and that you don't want to answer) is not "What does some theologian think about this subject?", but "What do you think, Cole?"
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:24 pm

Why do you feel that you have to be defensive? Are you at war or something? I like to discuss things. Not fight. You are the one who is fearful. It shows in your responses.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:29 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:Why do you feel that you have to be defensive? Are you at war or something? I like to discuss things. Not fight. You are the one who is fearful. It shows in your responses.


You're the one resorting to ad hominems instead of actually discussing things and giving straight answers to questions. If you don't have an answer, it's perfectly acceptable to simply say, "I don't know."

Perhaps you should take your last post and ask those questions of yourself.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:36 pm

I have answered the question. You just don't like it because I have an answer. Evil is a lack in good things but not a thing in itself. It's kind of like holes. Holes don't exist in and of themselves but only in another. Evil is a privation in the good that God made. God removes His hand of grace (for morally sufficient reasons) and evil desires are given birth.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Eric Fry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:10 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:I have answered the question. You just don't like it because I have an answer. Evil is a lack in good things but not a thing in itself. It's kind of like holes. Holes don't exist in and of themselves but only in another. Evil is a privation in the good that God made. God removes His hand of grace (for morally sufficient reasons) and evil desires are given birth.


Sigh. And I've explained why your answer is illogical. I submit that you're the one that is displeased because it has been demonstrated that your belief is backed up only with logical fallacies. But, now, I at least have the clarity that you're not at all interested in a discussion or debate of positions, you simply wish to make a proclamation and have us all bow down to it. You accuse me of being a contrarian, yet you are the one making posts that oppose the premise of this entire forum, in many of the sub-forums. Perhaps you should keep your posts in the "Discussion Negative" sub-forum, or perhaps you'd be happier posting on a site where the people will whole-heartedly agree with your opinions.

Evil is a lack in good things but not a thing in itself.


And now, since I'm really done with trying to get you to take an honest look at your position, and see if it's really what you believe, and not just the opinion of some preacher, I'll say that statement is the most ignorant, soul-seared, cold-hearted, and willfully blind thing I've ever read.
"Oh, don't be upset, you poor Jews, that whole holocaust thing wasn't an actual evil, it was just a lack of good."
"Your wife and daughters were raped and murdered by the LRA, Mr. Rwandan? Don't be mad, Joseph Kony wasn't really evil, mind you, he was just suffering from a lack of goodness."

But, hey, the Calvinist false god of predestination wanted all of that to happen, huh?
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:20 pm

I never said that the holocaust wasn't evil. But evil is corruption. Have you ever seen a hole just floating around? If you did it would be a hole in space. Holes don't exist in and of themselves. They exist in another. The same goes with evil. Evil is a privation of the good. When God removes His hand of grace you get destruction and chaos. It's clearly a Biblical concept. It seems you just don't like what the Bible teaches.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:42 pm

Also, you just called the Biblical God a false God. Continue on with your hardness of heart blaspheming if you wish. I wouldn't recommend it though.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Cindy Skillman » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:34 pm

Yeah . . . you know it's okay for you guys to disagree on this. The whole evil vs good and where did evil come from thing is actively debated amongst far more knowledgeable theologians than I ever expect to become in this life . . . they can't agree, either.

But I find this topic interesting, and I haven't by any means settled my views on it, so I'm interested in musing on it with any of you. I wonder . . . the idea of a black hole fascinates me. I'm not a scientist, but I have a sort of idea of a black hole as a huge nothing or chaos that tries to swallow up everything. And so I have this picture in my mind of God, before creation, filling everything and complete in Himself -- love -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit, loving one another; pouring all they are into one another with complete unselfish abandon in this amazing, magnificent vortex of love.

And God agrees within Himself that it would be great to share this; to expand it to others; this divine love. Now I get a little shaky -- not that the whole thing isn't shaky. I'm just thinking, musing aloud and interested in your take on it because this has been swirling around in me for a while now and still hasn't coalesced. I'm more of an artist than a mathematician. I'm the sort of person who looks at all those incredible numbers everywhere that make up the known world and say, "Isn't that beautiful?" and doesn't understand a bit of it. So you know where I'm coming from. It's all intuitive.

Anyway, God wants to expand. The Father wants sons and daughters; the Son wants a bride; the Spirit wants a temple. And they concoct this plan. How do you make a corporate person worthy to be a companion to the Godhead? I wonder why God didn't just form exactly what they wanted and be done with it? Could it be that such a creation would lack something in "REAL"?

When I do a journal page, I often start with a layer of stuff, then add another layer of stuff, then another and another and another until I like what I've made and am ready to call it finished. You can barely see the first layer, but it's there adding to the depth and the mystery. There's really no other way you could make a page of this sort and get the same feel. I wonder if that's something like what God is doing, making human beings; making the One New Man (Christ in/among us, the hope of glory).

You start by making a void; a chaos, maybe. The chaos is hungry like a black hole and it tries to suck everything into itself. Maybe the chaos is a place where God is not. There's never been such a place before, and God isn't there, and it's evil. It isn't always going to be evil. God will pull it inside out, form it, fill it, refine it, squeeze every bit of "nothing" out of it, and ultimately enter the chaos as a human being, the ultimate sacrifice given on the cross and entering the chaos for the purpose of becoming its master. Now He is filling all, and soon He will be filling all in all.

Eventually the chaos will be completely transformed, but meanwhile we have bits of chaos dispersed through this world. We call it evil. It's the ambient weather of the present evil age. And here and there we regularly have great storms of chaos, like the Holocaust, Somalia, the "evil empire," Mao, Kim Jung Ill -- also the tsunamis in Japan and Indonesia -- great earthquakes in China, Iran, Haiti, volcanoes, typhoons, hurricanes, fires . . . chaos working itself out. But what if that's just what it takes to build the sort of daughters and sons; the sort of bride; the sort of temple God desires to have?

So did God create evil? Well, sort of. God created the void; the chaos; the raw materials out of which He would wrest and is wresting that which is His ultimate intention; the companion(s) of His heart. A great people who are one as He is One, fully mature and complete, fully love, fully aware, fully alive. Perhaps this is simply the only way it could be done.

When I put a piece of pottery on the shelf to dry out, is that an evil to the pot (if it could think)? Probably. What about the kiln? Twice? A far simpler process than the making of mankind, but from the pot's point of view I suppose it would be pure anguish. I know that's just what it takes to make a beautiful piece of pottery. I bear the clay no ill will. It came to me as a lump of wet brown or gray slimy stuff and I'm going to turn it into a thing of beauty that could last until God the Son remakes the heavens and the earth. From my point of view, it's worth it, and I imagine that if the pot could think, once it saw what it had become, it would agree.

So yeah . . . just my somewhat nebulous thoughts. They'll probably change quite a lot before they're tough enough to go into the kiln. Is it possible that all the stuff that looks so messy and wrong to us is messy and wrong because it is in the process of being made, and we're not seeing the final outcome? That the chaos is the sort of stuff out of which you have to make the real? That the finished product will justify the agony of the process? Maybe we trust the potter and everything will be okay -- maybe that's the only thing we CAN do after all. :)

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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:41 pm

Thank you Cindy for your very interesting thoughts. I do have to disagree though about God creating evil. In my mind this does damage to God's character.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Cindy Skillman » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:18 pm

Not gonna disagree with you Cole, but I'm not sure you're right either. Someone had to make it -- or to make the naught that is evil. If evil is the absence of Good, then Good had to withdraw to cause that absence. So as I said, I just don't know. There's something here we're not fully understanding.

Is it the naught, which God hates (because it isn't what He wants) yet the substance from which He makes the good? The nothing is not good, but who made it? You could say it didn't have to be made, as it is nothing at all -- yet for there to be an "other" for God to eventually fill, He first had to NOT be in the other. And where God is NOT, is evil. So you could say, from a certain point of view, that God created the evil by His withdrawal. In order to destroy that evil, He must fill it and transform it from a nothing to a family, a bride, a sanctuary.

Very amorphic, nebulous, theoretical and philosophical -- and not at all certain. But seriously, if the absence of good entails that God is not there (as it must), then surely God would have to have withdrawn, in order to create that void. Unless of course there are places that God is not, simply because He isn't big enough to fill them . . . you see my difficulty, I think.

Love you, Bro,
Cindy
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:28 pm

Hi Cindy,

Yes, I think I see the difficulty. I think the absence of God's grace could be for a number reasons. I think He is still present though in His severity. Not necessarily His wrath but His severity. I believe that what evil men and Satan mean for evil God means for good. When He witholds His mercy it's for morally sufficient reasons is what I believe. I don't think He is the direct cause of evil but the indirect cause of it by permitting it as He turns it around and brings beauty out of ashes.

Love you too, Cindy.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby fmichaeldw » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:22 am

Hi Michael Cole,

How about llistening to Einstein on whether God did or did not create evil!

Try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTL_BF2US-Q

but if that does not work just search with Google and you will find in Youtube a short and moving debate between Einstein as a child and his professor.

And contrast with the apple which God created but Adam chose to eat!

Blessings to all!

Michael in Barcelona
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby davidbo » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:22 am

God is good.

After THINGS were created in Genesis 1, God said each was good.

God created the Tree of the KNOWLEGE of good AND evil.

The tree is good because God created it.

God did not create evil because evil is not a THING.

Evil is a way of thinking, a “knowing” about the opposite of good (God).

Evil is a way of thinking “NOT GOD”.

Because of the tree God created, we have the ability to think of, imagine, and desire things that are not good, not God.

This ability gives rise to sin, suffering, and death.

The tree is good and has a very good purpose.

In order for God’s essential character to be experienced, it is necessary that our individual consciousness be able to explore and experience the opposites of good (God).

It is through the borne out experience of evil knowledge that we (will) become fully and experientially aware of God’s goodness. Otherwise, goodness, love, light, etc. can never actually be known or understood.

In the end, all evil knowledge will give way to the comprehension of the glorious opposites found in the person of God.

Michael, I have no idea what you mean by “when God removes his hand of grace”. It’s seems nonsensical to me.

Everything is an act of God’s grace, including our “evil knowledge” ability. All pain and suffering we experience today as a result of evil knowing will one day be seen as an act (the act?) of supreme grace.

Phillip MacDonald says it best: “IS EVERYTHING SAD GOING TO COME UNTRUE?” godslovewins.com
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby fmichaeldw » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:12 am

davidbo wrote:
Michael, I have no idea what you mean by “when God removes his hand of grace”. It’s seems nonsensical to me.

Everything is an act of God’s grace, including our “evil knowledge” ability. All pain and suffering we experience today as a result of evil knowing will one day be seen as an act (the act?) of supreme grace.

Phillip MacDonald says it best: “IS EVERYTHING SAD GOING TO COME UNTRUE?” godslovewins.com
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby fmichaeldw » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:32 am

Hello David and all bros and sisters,

As I also posted a reply to Michael Cole's post, just for the record and to clarify your reference to a quote from Michael without adding his full name:

I too have no idea what Michael Cole means by "when God removes his hand of grace"..........,

Cheers and prayers to you Michael Cole , David, and all!

Michael in Barcelona
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:15 am

Michael_Cole wrote:God simply removes His restraing hands of grace off of the hearts of people and the desire for sin is given birth. When people sin they are acting according to their own wills and evil desires.


Which is the CREATION of evil. If God had to DO ANYTHING in order that EVIL comes to existence, it is CREATED. If by any action God does causes EVIL, then God is the CAUSE. He is not personally responsible for the evil you do, but he is responsible for the reason you can do evil.
Last edited by AUniversalist on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:20 am

Michael_Cole wrote:No. You obviously don't know my view. Satan was created good. Then God removed His hands of grace off his heart (for morally sufficient reasons) and the desire for sin was given birth. Satan then acted according to his own evil desires.


There is no Scripture or logical evidence in Scripture that shows Satan was ever created good.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native (original) language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus seems to know more about who and what Satan is than any theological lawyer trying to make Satan an antihero.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:37 am

Michael_Cole wrote:God doesn't create evil in anybody's heart. He removes His hand of grace off of the heart and evil desires are given birth. You seem to have alot of hate in your heart.


If God must do something for evil to exist, whether remove His Hand of Grace, or rub them together to conjure it up, it makes no difference. God is the CAUSE of evil if He must do something in order for it to exist.

Even if evil is a lack of God, when He withdraws, from Him, evil comes.

1 Samuel 16:14-16
Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. Saul’s attendants said to him, “See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you."

Your logic does not come from the Scriptures, your logic comes from an inability to understand.

1 Samuel 24:13
As the old saying goes, ‘From evildoers come evil deeds,'

God is the AUTHOR of evil, but He does not do evil. By God's actions (inaction is an action), evil is created but God does not do Evil. So since God does not do evil, neither are His deeds evil. You will see a repeated phrase in Scripture, "They did evil in the sight of the Lord" or "He did evil in the eyes of God," etc. These phrases tell you that evil is subject to God's judgment and all men are under His judgment, but for God to do evil in the eyes of man, God can never judged righteously for this.

Job 34:10
“So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

As long as one has the theology that many souls will be lost permanently, or tortured infinitely, then it is no wonder you find an injustice in the understanding that God created evil. You believe that evil persists in the end, and that many will be lost maybe even you, Michael.

You fear evil.

There is only one Truth and that is From God all things exist and through Him all things are held together, and by Him all things will be reconciled.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Cindy Skillman » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:05 am

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.


I thought about posting the Isaiah passage, too. But it looks to me like it probably really means more along the lines of "I bring calamity" or "I create disaster." That sort of thing. Nevertheless, if evil is a thing or a force or an absence or a choice . . . it seems to me that it has to come, in some fashion, from the one Creator. Otherwise we have two gods; a good one and a bad one.

I wonder if that which we call evil is something to do with creation wanting to regress to the chaos/void/nothingness from which God created it (and which, in itself, had to be created by God to begin with, even if it is a nothingness). It's evil because it's a regression to a less developed, matured state. And maybe we need to experience some of this from time to time, for various (and always beneficial in the long run) reasons. What do you all think? You're not going to hurt my feelings if you think I'm way off -- I'm not holding this as a dogma or anything, and I genuinely would love to hear your take on it.

Thanks in advance!
Cindy
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby sass » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:30 am

Cindy Skillman wrote:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.


I thought about posting the Isaiah passage, too. But it looks to me like it probably really means more along the lines of "I bring calamity" or "I create disaster."

Hi. My understanding is that this is the same word for "evil" as it is the Tree of Good and Evil...If that makes a difference. ;)
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:43 pm

Cindy Skillman wrote:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.


I thought about posting the Isaiah passage, too. But it looks to me like it probably really means more along the lines of "I bring calamity" or "I create disaster." That sort of thing. Nevertheless, if evil is a thing or a force or an absence or a choice . . . it seems to me that it has to come, in some fashion, from the one Creator. Otherwise we have two gods; a good one and a bad one.

I wonder if that which we call evil is something to do with creation wanting to regress to the chaos/void/nothingness from which God created it (and which, in itself, had to be created by God to begin with, even if it is a nothingness). It's evil because it's a regression to a less developed, matured state. And maybe we need to experience some of this from time to time, for various (and always beneficial in the long run) reasons. What do you all think? You're not going to hurt my feelings if you think I'm way off -- I'm not holding this as a dogma or anything, and I genuinely would love to hear your take on it.

Thanks in advance!
Cindy


No, He creates RA. If Isaiah meant to write calamity or disaster, he would have used EYD or HOVAH. Isaiah wrote RA, the same word in Genesis for the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil (RA). It has no 'lines' of calamity or disaster. It means moral evil.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:53 pm

That's a good point AUniversalist. I've changed my views on this. I don't follow the Bible anymore. It's my belief now that there is One True God who has two Spirits that emanate from Him/Her. One is the Spirit of love and light. The other is the Sprit of evil and abuse. I try not to follow the Spirit of evil and abuse. Rather, I try to follow the Spirit of love and light. This is my Higher Power. The Spirit of love and peace. I do this by taking care of myself and helping others when I can. I try to refrain from self-destructive and abusive behaviors. Not that I don't ever mess up. But when I do I just forgive myself and make my amends to others if needed. My goal is to love myself and others as I trust in and rely on the Power of love that comes from the Spirit of light and peace.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby AUniversalist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:11 pm

Michael_Cole wrote:That's a good point AUniversalist. I've changed my views on this. I don't follow the Bible anymore. It's my belief now that there is One True God who has two Spirits that emanate from Him/Her. One is the Spirit of love and light. The other is the Sprit of evil and abuse. I try not to follow the Spirit of evil and abuse. Rather, I try to follow the Spirit of love and light. This is my Higher Power. The Spirit of love and peace. I do this by taking care of myself and helping others when I can. I try to refrain from self-destructive and abusive behaviors. Not that I don't ever mess up. But when I do I just forgive myself and make my amends to others if needed. My goal is to love myself and others as I trust in and rely on the Power of love that comes from the Spirit of light and peace.


There you go. It is far more reasonable to have your now current belief, than the one you were talking about earlier. The religion of man has gone a long way in distorting the truth. I have a post here earlier speaking of what Satan is and it isn't a Angelic Being.

Though, I believe your current belief also is logically unsound despite regardless of it's scriptural support or not (whether you want it or not). I find your current belief has you live in constant fear from a 'Being' and you will never know which side will win since now it appears you believe that evil is inherit and not created.

What matters though, is that you pursue good and do good expecting nothing in return, and have joy in your heart and be happy in everything you do.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:14 pm

That is correct. I believe that they are eternal. And they will continue for all eternity. I don't follow the Spirit of abuse anymore though. I follow the Spirit of love and peace. I don't live in fear of the Spirit of love that I follow. I don't see anything illogical here.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:42 am

Also, one of the problems I have with the God of the Bible is that God the Father was sacrificing His only Son on the cross for His blood so that He could cover our sins and forgive them. It is said that the O.T. sacrifices were types and shadows of this bloody sacrifice, in particular when God told Abraham to sacrifice His only son. The only difference is that there was no one there to stop Father God from sacrificing Christ. I just don't understand why God requires blood to cover our sins in order to forgive. If it was only death God was after then He could have killed the innocent Christ without all that torture and blood. Nope, it was both death and blood that God the Father wanted. What does innocent blood have to do with forgiving someone for their sins? My Higher Power doesn't require blood sacrifices in order to forgive. When I mess up I just forgive myself, ask for forgiveness, and make amends if needed. There's no need for all that blood and abuse from my Higher Power.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby davidbo » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:02 am

Michael_Cole, you have asked a great question and one that has perplexed me more than perhaps any other theological concept.

The traditional view of penile substitution I just don’t buy at all. I don’t believe God is the bloodthirsty hothead that I think is the predominant view within the evangelical camp.

Instead I’ve come to view the story like this. We, the people God created, and due to the effects of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, went astray and began to horribly mistreat each other. We kill, rape, use, steal from, and manipulate each other – we sin. The cure for the disease caused by the famous tree is not judgment and punishment but instead forgiveness and God’s plan from the beginning was always to be the one to get the forgiveness ball rolling.

So God the father sent his only son, his most precious one to earth where sin was rampant. God knew we would mistreat him, torment, torture, and kill him. We would spill his innocent blood and it had to be this way. For the initial and pivotal act of forgiveness would necessarily demand the most heinous of crimes.

It pleased God to take the vilest viciousness we could dish out, to watch as we gave our best shot to destroy him, and then in complete reversal to offer forgiveness. He was not pleased in the blood just for the sake of bloody goriness, but he was pleased with the blood because it was the result of the most egregious offense we could direct towards him. He took the most we could dish out and in the midst of blood, agony, and death offered unmerited and total forgiveness and grace.

The God I worship chose to send his beloved son to a bloody death in order to show his equal love to the ones desperately in need of healing.

The God I worship chose to be sent in innocence and suffer and die at the hands of those he himself created.

The sender and the sent are one, with one purpose, and one desire – that through the spilled blood and resulting forgiveness, all sin and its resulting pain and death would be swallowed up in victory.
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Re: God Is Not The Author Of Evil

Postby Michael_Cole » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:14 am

Hi David,

I still don't see the point in all that blood being needed to forgive someone for their sins. I've been through alot of different paths of healing and I find that the one that is most effective for me is the 12 Steps. There's nothing there that says blood is required for the forgiveness of sins. And that is something I like. If you find healing in the death of Christ then thats great. For me, it has taken alot of work of going through the 12 Steps. As for the afterlife. I'm not sure there is one. I hope there is one. I do however believe in an eternal God.
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