The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Eye for an Eye

The good news is that we’re all on the same path. Maybe not on the exact same stepping stone but, the same path. :smiley: Blessings to you BOTE!

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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This is coming after a quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34, which says a lot.

What Law are we talking about here, anyway? There’s a lot of those.

It says that it’s “becoming” and “ready” to vanish… not that it has.

Yehovah didn’t get rid of the law that He’s talking about in Jeremiah. He continued it by putting his law in their minds and writing it on their hearts.

I’m talking of Yehovah’s instructions. His Torah. Law in this passage and in the context that I meant is the whole of God’s teachings. The word law used in Jeremiah 31:33 is Torah in Hebrew. Torah means instruction or teaching, which is derived from the root word Yarah, which means to throw, or point at something. So Torah gets its meaning from Yarah in the sense that by teaching, one is “pointing things out”.

We have the same concept in English in phrases like, “Just throwing that out for your consideration.” or “Pointing things out”

Not a single Christian I know has various Jewish rituals in their hearts, I assure you.

If you’re referring to the 613 laws, I have to strongly disagree. Half of that law is not valid due to the absence of judges, for one, and because Jesus invalidated half of it himself.

The only law I could imagine him writing anywhere is the absolute law that was included in the Torah - such as the Noahide laws, etc.

Which laws specifically are the ones that you say are Invalidated?

The food ones?

It seems to me that Jesus contrasted what He taught in “The Sermon on the Mount” with the Mosaic Law.
“It was said to you of old-time…, but I tell you…”

In one case, Jesus’ teaching was the exact opposite:
"You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:43-45 NASB)

I don’t know the source of the command to which Jesus referred. But it must have been a well-known command among the Hebrews.

Hi Paidon, I hope you’re well. My ideas have changed since first writing this (6 years ago!—wow!). But not significantly in substance. That said, I do agree with you that Jesus radically contrasted his elevated teachings with the teachings of Moses (and what was presumably a popular aberration: “hate your enemy”). I cannot recall Jesus ever criticizing Moses for Moses’ revelation though. Rather Jesus seems to take Moses as a great prophet, and not essentially mistaken for his time and mission, even if Moses’ teachings weren’t morally ideal and are no longer appropriate or mandatory for the universal brother/sisterhood that God (and Jesus) envisioned.

Actually you are right that Jesus did not contrast the teachings of Moses but pointed out that they were looking to the wrong place… They were looking to their own understanding (old covenant understanding) and Christ was telling them of another understanding (the new covenant through Him… Christ)

It is not a point of Moses’ / Gods laws to the OT not being relevant, but the idea that God was and is progressing his Creation to new things.

Yes… “Behold, I will do a new thing, now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it?

No, it’s simply good ole’ ‘bait n’ switch’ / ‘sleight of hand’ — create an air of ‘guilt by association’ with a rather generalised comment, something like… it seems Jesus contrasted what He taught in “The Sermon on the Mount” with the Mosaic Law, but then covering one’s tracks with a lukewarm caveat something like, I don’t know the source of the command to which Jesus referred — but of cause enough mud sticks. The truth is as stated here…

You are right… Jesus NEVER did! In fact Jesus legitimised as kosher that which some people call error; take for example Jesus backing what Moses said as being the command of God…

Mt 15:1-4 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’

Jesus was in nowise muddled over Moses… He knew and indicates by this testimony that Yahweh had spoken explicitly to and through Moses.

Oh yes. but there is a idea that somehow God changed… But to understand that there never was and has never been a change (took me a while to figure that out) is to have to re look the covenant relationship between God and man in a different way than evangelicals’ have been doing it.

It is actually kind of being freed from a slog… (my terminology) :laughing:

I never met anyone who thought that God changed. I certainly do not think that God has changed. But I think Moses sometimes thought God had spoken to or through him, when in fact, he came up with his own ideas as to how to deal with Israel.

If you want to know what God is like in character, just look at Jesus. Jesus is Another exactly like His Father. He is the exact image of the Father’s essence (Hebrews 1:3). Jesus never ordered His disciples to kill anyone, or to put to death rebellious childen, or to cut off women’s hands for certain offences as God supposedly did,.

The Pharisees were about to stone to death the woman discovered in adultery. Had Jesus followed the Mosaic law, He would have said, “The law is clear; she must be stoned” and perhaps would have cast the first stone Himself. Instead He shamed the Pharisees into inaction, and then simply said to the woman, “I don’t condemn you; go and sin no more.”

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Not only was it said, it is also written in Lev. However, Neither God nor Moses commanded it. Jeremiah tells us where it came from- the false pen of the scribe.

“He who is speaking evil of father or mother – let him die the death.” YLT.

The unchanging God is only about abundant life (Jn. 10:10). Jesus was NOT reaffirming a supposed divine command to kill disrespectful children. Rather, he was sarcastically confronting religious hypocrisy, as he goes on to say:

But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you…

Jesus indeed sometimes contradicted Moses:

  • ‘You have heard that it was said [through Moses]…But I [Jesus] tell you….’ Mt. 5.
  • ‘Eye for an eye’…’Turn the other cheek.’
  • ‘Moses commanded us to stone such women’…’Go now and leave your life of sin.’
  • Subject to bleeding [unclean were to remain apart]…’Who touched me?…Go in peace.’
  • ‘MOSES wrote you this law…because your hearts were hard.’

In the Old Testament we see breakthroughs of the progressive revelation of God’s true nature that subvert the law of Moses. For example, Isaiah 1:11 says, “I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.”

Paul highlighted imperfections of the law of Moses thus: “The ministry that brought death…engraved in letters on stone…The ministry that brought condemnation.” 2 Cor. 3:7-9.

In the Sermon on the Mount, lusting became adultery; anger became murder. Jesus was NOT reaffirming the law of Moses. He was jerking the “works rug” out from under his listeners’ feet and pointing them to the grace of God, himself, the savior of all mankind. (He did the same thing with the rich young ruler, who insisted that he had indeed faithfully kept the commandments.)

Thank you for your enlightening post, Hermano, ad for your quote from Richard Murray (above).
In early Hebrew days, Satan was depicted as a servant of God through whom God sometimes worked. Later he was understood to be an enemy of God.

Notice in the texts below, in 2 Samuel it is state that the LORD (Yahweh) incited David to number Israel, whereas in 1 Chronicles it is stated that Satan incited David to number Israel. This suggests that the LORD incited David to number Israel by means of his servant Satan.

2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

That’s actually an excellent point.

This is deep water, David ‘Wanted’ to do this thing. I say there was no outside influence ‘making’ him do it, but he was ‘compelled’ by his personal need, thus Satan was brought forth, and David succumbed to the same temptation that we all face, and as a side note, the same temptation that Christ faced. :neutral_face:

I agree Jesus WAS confronting their religious hypocrisy. Do you agree that the text CLEARLY has Jesus stating that Moses’ words WERE IN FACT God’s words, i.e., “the commandment of God”? Or do you maintain that like Moses Jesus was himself likewise deceived by Satan in attributing to God (as the TEXT clearly indicates) said… “commandment of God”? What other consistent conclusion can your position lead to?

Hermano, you said:
Paul highlighted imperfections of the law of Moses thus: “The ministry that brought death…engraved in letters on stone…The ministry that brought condemnation.” 2 Cor. 3:7-9.

You mentioned this in another thread. However, the law of Moses which was written in stone was the Ten Commandments. This means they are firmly established and cannot be changed. Jesus DID NOT do away with them. They are included in His ministry as well.