Hello from a potential EU

[AlSmith]

Hello everyone

My story to this point seems to share some common themes with others whose introductions I have read on this thread ...

I have been a Christian for about 32 years, most of that time as an (Arminian) evangelical and am still so (whilst not being very keen on labels), although in recent years I have better appreciated some strengths of other traditions. Like doubtless many others, I initially accepted - reluctantly - belief in hell as everlasting conscious torment, as part of the package of orthodox Christian belief. Then several years ago I reached the view that ECT was unlikely to be true, and switched to annihilationism / conditional immortality, having learnt that such a belief was becoming increasingly accepted as legitimate. I did not give universalism any thought at that time, having understood it not to be a plausible option.

Then last summer I read Rob Bell’s Love Wins, which raised good and interesting questions around 'hell as ECT' vs God’s love, etc, but did not seem to offer many clear answers and made me keen to look into more rigorous theological analysis. So I then read Gregory McDonald / Robin Parry’s The Evangelical Universalist (twice!), Robin Parry and Christopher Partridge’s Universalism? The Current Debate and Thomas Talbott’s The Inescapable Love Of God. From these and other reading I have found the material offered in support of evangelical universalism very mind-opening and encouraging.

I very much hope that universal reconciliation is true and that I will become a Christian/evangelical universalist. Whilst I have found most of the arguments for EU plausible/persuasive, I feel however that there is much I first need to process, in terms of the implications of EU for various aspects of belief and understanding of various passages in the Bible, etc. I therefore feel unable to sign up to EU, as yet, although at the moment I feel nearer to EU than any other position.

Having read some of the posts on this forum, I have been very impressed by the warmth, helpfulness and support shown by members, so am keen to join in. I have some thoughts and questions, etc and plan to post about some of them separately (describing only my current ones would take all night!) in existing or new threads - keeping this post just to an introduction. Hopefully I might be able to offer some thoughts for others as well.

Other background very briefly: Very blessed with wife and 3 children, home and job. Also a small and loving (Church of England) church which takes people as they are (so I don’t foresee a big problem there if I become an EU). Through some traumas over several years - mainly family health related - I have felt sustained by God and his working through others, and learnt much-needed lessons.

Finally, my choice of user name AlSmith (reflecting my full name, Alistair Smith) was perhaps not the best choice – as I see Alex Smith is also a member and frequent poster, which could cause confusion! Alex or an administrator/moderator – please don’t hesitate to let me know if you would like me to re-register with a different user name?

Thanks in anticipation and warmest good wishes

Al

[AllanS]

And I'm Allan Smith, but hey. No worries. I spoke at a Rotary Club a few years ago and there were three Allan Smiths. The more, the better, in my view. (BTW, it's nothing to do with Smith being a common name, or being popular. It's all to do with masculine vigor. )

Welcome along.

[SLJ]

Hi Al,
Welcome and thanks for the intro!

Sonia

[edwardtulane82]

Welcome

[revdrew61]

Welcome Al, I hope you will find this forum as friendly and helpful as I have. Looking forward to joining you in discussions. Drew

[Alex Smith]

Welcome to the forum AlSmith. It's fantastic to hear your story, and it's completely understandable that you still have things you need to think about. I hope we can help & encourage you.

I have no problem with your username

[JeffA]

Hi Al,

Welcome from Wales. I think one of the strengths of the Anglican Church is its tolerance of diversity. I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren - a very different kettle of fish. I am currently agnostic about so much (including the existence of God) but curiously am convinced of the Bible's universalistic teaching (I hope it's not just wishful thinking). About the only thing I am not agnostic about is that I am a serial sinner.

There is a wonderful group of people here all struggling with the same issues as you and me - company on the journey helps greatly.

[corpselight]

welcome, Al!
i'm not that far away in sunny north london.
sounds like we trod a similar path! hope you enjoy the discussions here and get as much out as i have!

[johnnyparker]

Hi Al

A warm welcome from gloomy and overcast (although not always!) High Wycombe.

If you've read my intro post you'll know how much we have in common in our 'journeys' along the road to Christian Universalism. It seems, though, that at the moment you haven't yet turned that crucial corner to embrace this wonderful doctrine fully. I hope and pray that you will.

Of course, you must follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in your heart. But I think you will find He will lead you safely home to a full understanding of God's glorious truth - for of course, as John tells us, "in Him is no darkness at all".

As I mentioned in my intro, reading the works of George MacDonald really paved the way towards UR for me. His Unspoken Sermons are freely available on the net. One of MacDonald's big themes is that we should trust the revelation of God in our hearts over the traditions of men, ie the church.

In his sermon entitled Justice, for example, he says this;

To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God. To uphold a lie for God’s sake is to be against God, not for him. God cannot be lied for. He is the truth. The truth alone is on his side. While his child could not see the rectitude of a thing, he would infinitely rather, even if the thing were right, have him say, God could not do that thing, than have him believe that he did it. If the man were sure God did it, the thing he ought to say would be, ‘Then there must be something about it I do not know, which if I did know, I should see the thing quite differently.’

But where an evil thing is invented to explain and account for a good thing, and a lover of God is called upon to believe the invention or be cast out, he needs not mind being cast out, for it is into the company of Jesus. Where there is no ground to believe that God does a thing except that men who would explain God have believed and taught it, he is not a true man who accepts men against his own conscience of God.

I acknowledge no authority calling upon me to believe a thing of God, which I could not be a man and believe right in my fellow man. I will accept no explanation of any way of God which explanation involves what I should scorn as false and unfair in a man. If you say, that may be right of God to do which it would not be right of man to do, I answer, yes, because the relation of the maker to his creatures is very different from the relation of one of those creatures to another, and he has therefore duties toward his creatures requiring of him what no man would have the right to do to his fellow man; but he can have no duty that is not both just and merciful. More is required of the maker, by his own act of creation, than can be required of men. More and higher justice and righteousness is required of him by himself, the Truth; greater nobleness, more penetrating sympathy; and nothing but what, if an honest man understood it, he would say was right. If it be a thing man cannot understand, then man can say nothing as to whether it is right or wrong. He cannot even know that God does it, when it is unintelligible to him. What he calls it may be but the smallest facet of a composite action. His part is silence.

If it be said by any that God does a thing, and the thing seems to me unjust, then either I do not know what the thing is, or God does not do it. The saying cannot mean what it seems to mean, or the saying is not true.

This, I humbly submit, is precisely the sort of thinking - using our God-given powers of reason to discern what is right, as we are commanded to do - that leads one to question the traditonal doctrine of ECT. And once that door has been opened, once the chink of light of UR begins to shine through, I think you'll find there is no shutting it again, no turning back.

Many of us just need a bit of help to get past the centuries of erroneous tradition, to sidestep the accusation of 'heresy'. And this forum is just the sort of place to help you do that. It is brave, truthful, Godly, loving and Biblically-minded people like George MacDonald - and many of the good souls on this forum, I might add - who, prompted by the Spirit - open our eyes to the glorious truth that God loves all His creatures and will save all of us in the end.

Grace and blessings to you as you continue your journey.

Shalom

Johnny

[BirdOfTheEgg]

McDonald seems like an awesome guy.

He's one of those preachers that make me uncomfortable (in a good way), and is very serious about stuff. Yet, he's UR (or so).

[Sherman]

Welcome Al,

We're glad to have you join and I look forward to you sharing further. UR required an almost complete renewing of the mind for me because I had always assumed ECT to be true; and ECT touched all and was the foundation for much of my theology and worldview. For me, coming to accept UR was no less than a Copernicun revolution! For me it took months of study. But as I studied what scripture actually affirms concerning the punishment of sin, the more the evidence stacked up in affirmation of UR. For me the "tipping point" came when I found that Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) did not likely carry the connotation of ECT for the 1st century Jew. When I found this out, well, the beans spilt and in my heart I believed UR, even though in my head I would not acknowledge what I had come to believe in my heart.

For a few more months I would only say that I was studying UR and finding it compelling; but I would not confess to myself, much less anyone else that I believed in UR. It finally took the Lord speaking to me, saying, "Stop Lying!" for me to admit to myself and others that I believed in UR. Subconsciously I was afraid to fully embrace UR because,
1) I was afraid of being wrong.
2) I was dreading the relational problems I knew would come if I embraced UR.
3) I assumed correctly that I'd be persecuted, with people accusing me falsely.
4) I love the church and knew that I'd be excluded from many fellowships.

Well, I started openly confessing that I had come to believe in UR; and, well, what I feared came upon me. I've never been so hurt and isolated in my life. I actually became so angry at one point that for 3 days I stayed away from my house, stayed in the woods near my house, so that I would be sure to not vent my rage upon my family (wife and 4 children). I've never been so filled with rage and so apt to loose control in all my life. I felt like a wolfman and was afraid to be around those I love. But the Lord heard my cry, showed me that this was from Him, that He wanted to break me, and enabled me to forgive others because I knew they did not know what they were doing.

Since then, I've come to fully embrace UR and fully reject ECT. The fire of persecution has burnt all vestiges of belief in Hell out of me! Not only do I now openly confess UR, but I now openly confess that I do not believe in Hell and will gladly share why.

Well anyhow, welcome aboard. I do look forward to getting to know you.

Blessings,
Sherman

[AlSmith]

Just a brief post at this point to say thank you all so much for your warm welcome and thoughtful words of encouragement and support, all of which I very much appreciate.

Will post more shortly - meanwhile blessings and many thanks again.

Al

[JasonPratt]

Welcome to the forum!

Don't worry too much about misidentification: Alex's forum name is spelled out, and more importantly he gets to have one of those nice "administrator" tags under his name.

[corpselight]

Welcome to the forum!

Don't worry too much about misidentification: Alex's forum name is spelled out, and more importantly he gets to have one of those nice "administrator" tags under his name.

also, we've had multiple Aarons!

[Cindy Skillman]

Welcome, Al . . alex? allen? alfred . . . ?

Yeah -- well, welcome anyhow! I very much enjoyed your testimony, and you do sound like a lot of us.

See you around!

[AlSmith]

Many thanks also for those latest posts of welcome.

Regarding just a selection of comments made in posts above:

I am currently agnostic about so much (including the existence of God) but curiously am convinced of the Bible's universalistic teaching (I hope it's not just wishful thinking).

Jeff - I am intrigued (in a positive way) that, if I have understood you correctly, you seem more convinced of UR than of the existence of God? I would be very interested to hear more, if you would you be happy to expand on that? (If you have already do so in another post, perhaps you could send me a link?)

Corpselight and Johnny - Yes indeed, I have read your intros and agree that our stories have much in common.

Johnny - Thanks for the recommendation about George MacDonald, which I will follow up and it is useful to know that some of his work is on the net. The main theme of the extract you quoted seems to be summarised by the first sentence:

"To say on the authority of the Bible that God does a thing no honourable man would do, is to lie against God; to say that it is therefore right, is to lie against the very spirit of God."

This touches on one of the main aspects I am grappling with at the moment and finding quite challenging, namely whether to believe that the premise that God always acts with 'holy love' can be reconciled with acts/commands of violence ascribed to God in the Old Testament - and if so, how. As I understand it, the 'holy love' premise - that God's actions for everyone are ultimately both just and loving - underlies evangelical universalism / universal reconciliation, and accepting it therefore seems key to accepting EU/UR. The premise is described by Thomas and Gregory/Robin in their books, and comes up later in your George MacDonald quote:

"... he can have no duty that is not both just and merciful."

I have started reading other threads here on violence in the OT, so might post further in such threads (which is presumably where any much deeper conversations about this should continue).

Sherman - I was very sorry to hear of the ordeal you suffered when you started openly confessing UR, and I do hope that your situation is much improved now. You said that you do not believe in hell and will gladly share why - I would indeed be very interested in your explanation please (again perhaps by a link to a previous post?).

Thanks again everyone for each and every one of your welcoming posts, and your thoughtful comments and prayers. Looking forward to future conversations.

Blessings

Al (Alistair!)

[JeffA]

Hi Al,

When I get a minute I'll jot a few thoughts down for you.

[JeffA]

Just quickly I'll say that my current position is that I consider myself really clueless as to the existence of God but convinced that in and of itself (even just regarded as literature as opposed to God breathed scripture) the Bible as a whole can be seen to be compatible with the complete restoration of all people that were lost in Adam in Christ (with dire punishments and corrections for the impenitent in this life).

[AlSmith]

Hi Jeff

Many thanks for your thoughts. I think you being convinced that the Bible as a whole can be seen to be compatible with UR is of course valuable in its own right, but saying so as an agnostic brings an interesting additional dimension to that. I love how diverse are the members of this forum, whilst sharing so much like-mindedness and able to learn a lot from one another.

Blessings and thanks again - Al

[Sobornost]

Hi Al -

Greetings from a fellow Anglican (I am from the Catholic Wing of the Church - but not the extreme Anglo Catholic wing). Oh well it sounds like regarding UR you wouldn't be seeking if you hadn't already found; and that it's a case of working out the details for yourself within a supportive community (I can understand that especially with someone from the Evangelical tradition in which the Bible is sacramental, it's important to be clear on how UR fits the scope of scriptural teaching).

Look forward to chats.

All the best


Dick

[Sobornost]

I should add that having been a Fundamentalist, a Quaker, and a Catholic Anglican in my time, I've viewed scripture, silence, and holy communion as sacraments of the Word. All three are still sacramental for me - but the sacrament of scripture is something I'm still struggling with since I first apprehended it in a distorted tradition. That's why it is helpful for me to be a member of this site and learn from others who use scripture as a sacrament but do so with openness and due attention to context.

All the best


Dick

[JeffA]

Hi Al,

It's even possible that my stance is my mustard seed (who knows).

[AlSmith]

Dick - Many thanks for your greetings and thoughtful comments.

Oh well it sounds like regarding UR you wouldn't be seeking if you hadn't already found; ...

I particularly like that thought. For me at the moment, the heart and will are strong to believe in UR, but (part of) the mind is saying "Hold on, there is still much to work through, and what about such-and-such-possible-problem ..."!

It sounds like yours has been quite a varied spiritual path over the years and I am glad that - if I have read you correctly - you now feel in the right place spiritually. As for learning from others - whilst I have only just joined this site, I have read quite a few posts/threads and agree this does seem a great community for doing that, and also supporting and encouraging one another more generally.

Jeff -

It's even possible that my stance is my mustard seed (who knows).

Another good thought - and what a mustard seed to have!


Be speaking again soon - Al

[Sobornost]

Yes Al - i feel very much at peace with where I am at now. But if when I first became convinced of UR - in my teens - there had been the openness and debate in the Evangelical world that there is today I probably would not have left the fold and embarked on my an often confusing and bewildering journey. It feels quite nostalgic talking to you all - but that's a nice feeling

[christilling]

Welcome, Alistair! I grew up in Surrey. Tadworth, actually. I must say, I appreciate your integrity in wrestling with this issues. It worries me when someone becomes an EU too quickly, with little thought for the majority of church tradition and the few rather difficult passages in the New Testament. And if one does become an EU, I think it is important how it is held. In this respect I think Robin Parry is a terrific model – concern for evangelism, integrity in interpreting Scripture, a commitment to creedal orthodoxy, and a desire that this particular dogmatic move does not become too important or overly defining of one's Christian identity. Anyway I wish you the best as you engage with the friendly people on this discussion forum.
Best wishes,
Chris

[JasonPratt]

What ChrisT said.

{staring in some awe at Chris' new forum avatar...}

[christilling]

Thank you Jason! As you may have gathered, the picture is of Karl Barth. But I have tried to the ever so subtly modernise him!

[JasonPratt]

The shades need to be a bit more like Jack Nicholson's, maybe...? (Though that might ruin the star effect.)

[AlSmith]

Chris - Many thanks for your kind words and helpful thoughts. Yes, Robin Parry seems an excellent model, and The Evangelical Universalist has made an enormous impact on me. It would be great if perhaps you get time to participate in future discussions yourself? - anyway, all the best to you too meanwhile.

Jason - Thanks also for your entertaining posts! (I'm not 100% sure what the Mr Green emoticon means here?!)

Blessings

Al / Alistair

[FLSister]

I appreciated the warm welcome on my introduction post. We sound very similiar in regards to religious upbringings. I like the name Alistair by the way. There is a pastor named Alistair Begg, I don't know if you are familar with him, but I always enjoy listening to his sermons on the Christian radio station when I can get it to come in. He has a great sense of humor. Something tells me you do as well.

[AlSmith]

Thanks for that post, Melissa.

Notwithstanding the similarities in our religious backgrounds, in my particular experience (in the Church of England) the subject of hell and so on has not been covered 'publicly' very much in preaching or bible studies, etc - rather less than in your case, by the sound of it. I expect this varies a fair amount according to church denomination and other factors. I see you are thinking you might move to a different church for the time being and I do hope that works out well.

On lighter matters - I don't recall hearing of Alistair Begg, I'm afraid, but do think humour can be helpful (and enjoyable, of course) in sermons. As for my own sense of humour, I had better ask my family for their opinion!

You are in my prayers as, like me, you explore UR.

Blessings - Al