The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Stoning Sabbath Breakers Today?

Thanks, Bob!
We are also a shadow, a type of the temple. Our physical “temple” will be gone and we will become the spiritual temple completely and only one day. Until then, we are a shadow and type. But, how do we work that out? I believe The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has been showing us from the beginning.

Hi Kelly,

Thanks! It does seem that we use similar words, even if our nuances can be different. I quite agree God has been “showing” us the way from the beginning. It’s just that believing that now Jesus stunningly most clearly reveals God and THE way, truth, and life, encourages my impression that without Jesus it was much easier to see the letter of Scripture and misconstrue what God really wants us to see.

I can see what you mean, Bob. But, even before the written letter, He was the same and showed us the Sabbath from the creation account. Getting to know Jesus without understanding what following Torah in the Spirit would seem to make Him a false god but, seeing Him in Torah only makes us know Him as Alpha, as well as, Omega.

Yeshua fulfills everything. So, if He fulfills everything does that mean there is nothing now for us in Him? No need for anything? If we throw off the sabbath because He fulfilled it we must also throw off all scripture for the same reason. It seems there is a bit of that here and it doesn’t seem an issue for those doing the throwing off. But, if the written scripture is thrown off all that is left is people pulling ideas out if their brain and calling it god. Then, there is no objective truth and everyone just does what’s right in his own eyes Sadly, that seems to be where “faith in Jesus” is going.

I didn’t really mean to start this thread as a second discussion as to whether the law should be followed. I’m hoping Kelly or anyone else might explain this point that if we’re to obey the WHOLE law, then do God’s commands of cleansing and punishment still apply today?

For example, God has instruction on how to cleanse from eating unclean foods or touching dead bodies. Do these apply? If not then who determines what is still applicable and what is not? How does that group make that determination?

Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself?

Here we are contrasting again those who rely on the written law, vs. those who rely on the law on the heart. the written law does no good without the spiritual understanding, if they pay no attention to their conscience, like the good gentiles do

1 Co 2:6Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.c

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I’m not saying we throw the scripture away. But our conscience is where the rubber meets the road. We are called to be one with Christ, we have the mind of Christ. My sheep hear my voice. That is how we determine what is supposed to be followed. Each mans conscience affirming or denying him. Like I wrote in the sabbath desecration thread, each person is at a different place, and each person is given different understanding by God, and I believe we are never out of God’s will. If you believe that you’re supposed to follow the letter to the…erm letter :smiley: , then thats what you’re supposed to be doing at that moment. It may change. God is in complete control. we are all part of a grand story, when people ask why do we suffer, or why does God allow ECT to be taught? I say because thats all part of the plan. We keep looking at it through our own life, but if we realize that we are part of the bigger picture, we are where we are cus thats His plan.

I know this may seem contradictory, but I also believe He wants us to be pushing forward, pressing in, to come to the knowledge of the truth and to the stature of the mature man. So we have some measure of free will, as we are to discern good and evil, which again is why I don’t think we are to hang on to the letter for ever, because once we are grown to the age we don’t need a schoolmaster, we’re set on our own to be able to discern good and evil. But we don’t do it on our own, we aren’t just making it up as we go along. Our conscience confirms or denies

(speaking of sabbath rest :wink: )
Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

11Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

We enter the rest by resting from our works, by not relying on our own understanding whether it comes from the written word or what we deem right, but allowing the mind of Christ(word of God) to do its work in us

Hi Auggy,

I think I answered this somewhat in my last post on the other thread.
In light of the NT reiterating the importance of keeping the commandments (or upholding the law, as Paul puts it), what do you do when you sin against God by breaking them?

I’m with you on this, Mag. I love it that you use scripture, it’s a blessing to me. I don’t depend on the law for my salvation but, to extend your idea a little more . . .
We have the mind of Messiah. We have the Spirit of Yehovah, who writes the law on our hearts and minds. Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him. So isn’t the law of Yehovah’s Spirit and the Father’s words what we are to obey? If Jesus spoke only what the Father told Him, where do we come up with this new, different law? If Yehovah’s Spirit is within us, why is there a new and different law written on our hearts? Yehovah wanted all His people, in all time to follow the Spiritual law. The letter kills only if you are trying to earn your own way to God by it. How can it kill those for whom Yeshua died? We do walk in Spirit and Truth. If the words are the Father’s and the law is the Father’s and the Father’s Spirit wrote the law on our hearts, wouldn’t our consciences condemn or acquit us based on Jesus’ words and actions (which came from the Father) and the Spirit of Yehovah’s law inscribed on our hearts? And so, wouldn’t following the law of liberty, or following the letter of the law merely be a matter of whether we obey God out of a right heart and walk in the Spirit verses working to earn our own salvation by keeping the law apart from the Savior? It’s us that needs the change of heart, not Him.
Thank you for your posts, they give me a lot to think about. :slight_smile:

Hi Auggy:

Again, I must say I am entirely bewildered by what you seem to be asking here.

Unless I’m mistaken, your mockery of the literalness of the Sabbath commandment intends for us to conclude that since we no longer hold that death for Sabbath Breakers is valid or appropriate, that must mean the entire Sabbath Command must be irrelevant now. That since we no longer hold to the literalness of stoning Sabbath Breakers, we no longer need to take the Sabbath itself as literal. Or something like that.

But it doesn’t even take close inspection to watch that notion fall completely apart.
Consider:

Why didn’t you phrase your question/post like this…

“DIE 5TH COMMANDMENT BREAKER! DIE!”

Since you surely don’t believe in stoning rebellious back talking children, that must mean you no longer take the command to honor ones father and mother literally or seriously right??

or this…

“DIE (3RD COMMANDMENT BREAKER) BLASPHEMER! DIE!

Since you surely don’t believe in stoning those who break the 3rd commandment, that must mean you no longer feel obligated to keep literally the 3rd commandment right??

or this…

“DIE ADULTERER (7TH COMMANDMENT BREAKER)! DIE!”

Since I’m sure you don’t condone putting to death those who commit adultery, that must mean you no longer believe that we are to take the 7th commandment literally right??

So, why don’t you tell me how our changed practice with regard to enforcing commandments 3, 5 and 7 does not negate the commandment itself? Tell me why the inconsistency on your part?

Bobx3

Kelly,

I agree with Both Redhot and you. You both bring up great points and reminders.

The letter of the law is useless without the Spirit. The commands of God can only be properly followed when we are given a new heart and Spirit of God. The meaning of the scripure can’t even be understood without our new man and God’s Spirit revealing it. I would agree that our concience confirms the law of the lord as true and right. Gentiles didn’t even need the law of the lord as it was written on their minds.And me a gentile, when I study scripture, it only confirms what I already know to some extent.

I love how Ezekial shows this point. The Prophets saw our day, the day when we would be able to live by the law of the lord, because of the New Heart and Spirit of Christ indwelling us.

Ezekial 36:26-27

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws

Compare this Collosians verse to the Ephesians verse. The Word of Christ Is synoymous with the Spirit of God.Notice the result is the same in both epistles. When filled by God we have gratitude in our hearts and are motivated to praise God in Song.

Collosians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God

Ephesians 5:18
be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Notice Jesus words regarding the situation.

John 17

vs 6 I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word…For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.

vs 14 *I have given them your word *and the world has hated them

vs 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth

vs 20 I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you

So, I believe the Literal Universal Laws of the Lord, when obeyed from the right heart, are 100 percent synchronized with walking in the Spirit. Not something different altogether.

God Bless you Both!!

I’m hearby changing the name. When I first wrote it I laughed. But I read Kelly saying to magma that he didn’t begrudge her and when I revisited this thread, I realized - perhaps once again my humor has come off very poorly.

Let me say publicly - I’m sorry for begrudging you Kelly. I meant no dis-respect and will try to remember that I have to be more careful.

Aug

No, because there is no more Old covenant in God’s eyes it has been replaced by the New covenant. Hebrews 10:9. God taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. :wink:

I’ve tried to limit my case on the Sabbath to the previous “Desecration” thread, and its’ antecedent! But I will say that interpretations of how this commandment applies today seem to be diverse among various Christian traditions. And if someone (e.g. Wheaton’s N.T. prof, Doug Moo) argues that the N.T. does not call us to just keep O.T. law, then just labeling it as a “strange” idea that “throws off (O.T.) Scripture” or “what God has said,” seems to evade the issue. What seems essentially required in the question is engaging the New Testament texts that are at issue. E.g. one either thinks that the N.T. would or would not call us to obey what the Torah specifies on punishments. But debating that requires wrestling with how to make sense of what the New Testament reveals. And I would think that the same requirement is true in examining the application of any other prescription in the Torah.

I knew you were being a pill, Auggy. :laughing: I’m growing quite fond of your humor. No need to apologize because in about 10 seconds I’m going to say something that I’ll have to apologize for (again) and we may spend the next several minutes . . . or years like that. :open_mouth:
I don’t think Mag was saying you were begrudging me. I think he was speaking to be based on our previous conversations. Mag?
It is really difficult to communicate ideas and especially personalities in this form so, we just need to give each other a little more room and benefit of the doubt sometimes. That’s what I’m learning and growing in through our conversations and I appreciate everyone being patient with me for so long. Thank you all.

Hi Aaron,
I think the context of Hebrews 10:9 is specifically speaking about the animal sacrifices and declaring that through the Passover Lamb, we no longer sacrifice animals for sin. It is interesting that vs 5-8 are a quote from Psalm 40:6-8. Psalm 40:8 says, “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy **law **is within my heart.”.
I think the priesthood and sacrifice still stand though they have changed. I also think, based on numerous NT scriptures, that God wants us to obey His law (not for salvation) but, with a right heart by the Spirit. Is that feasible based on your knowledge of scripture?
Great to hear your view, Aaron! May Yehovah bless you!
Kelly

Yep

It seems to me that we do keep the Ten when we live by the life of God within us. For example, someone mentioned murder a little bit earlier. We are still keeping the law about not murdering, but Jesus elevated it by quite a lot, to whit, that we aren’t even to call our brother a fool or to be angry with him without a cause. Likewise it’s not enough just to love the Lord our God and worship Him according to temple practices. We must worship in spirit and in truth, no matter where we happen to be geographically. We do not only eschew adultery; we don’t even look at a woman (man?) to lust. Not only do we not steal; we give our extra cloak to our fellow person in need. And not only do we not bear false witness against a neighbor, we don’t resist him if he sues us without cause. It isn’t good enough not to covet; we must even consider others as better than ourselves . . . you get the picture.

So I would submit that it isn’t good enough or even (for me, at least) pertinent to keep Saturday as the Sabbath. Jesus IS truly our Sabbath and we must be resting in Him every moment of every day. We do not dedicate one day a week to worship and contemplation, but rather every spare moment.

Now for me, it’s possibly a little easier than for many of you. I work part time, all my children are grown, and my husband is away at work most days. I spend a LOT of time seeking God, studying His word, listening to Him . . . contemplating Him, basically. I would do this all the time to the exclusion of laundry, dishes, making pottery, sweeping the floor, walking the dogs . . . oh, just about everything. But then He pricks my conscience and I have to go wash a dish. :frowning: But hey, it’s pretty easy to go right on contemplating whilst washing dishes, etc. So for me, every spare moment truly is a little Sabbath.

I think it’s a great idea to take one day off a week and dedicate it solely to God, though I don’t do this. We meet together as a body on Saturdays (usually, unless someone has a conflict), and of course that means cooking and (if it’s at my house) cleaning, etc. I could do these things the day before, and I should, but it’s so much more fun to read my newest book or study out something I’ve been wondering about, that I always seem to put the work off until the last possible moment. Maybe I SHOULD take up Kelly’s practice. It would perhaps cure me of at least a little bit of that procrastination.

But seriously, I think it’s fine for anyone who feels God is so leading them to keep the Sabbath in any way they see fit. If God is telling my sister or brother to keep Sabbath, then I think she/he should do it. He hasn’t told me that, in so many words. You could say that He HAS – in scripture – if I’d only listen, but there’s at least as good a case against ritually keeping Sabbath as Christ followers as there is for it; possibly better. I am not struggling with my conscience here. If Jesus wants me to ritually keep the Sabbath, well I’m willing to do it. All He has to do is convict me of my sin (and He’s really good at that), but thus far, I feel absolutely no compunction to start doing it, so I’ll wait to hear from Him personally. That said, if He’s convicted others to keep the Sabbath rules as written down in the OT, then they should do that, and I applaud them for their obedience.

Love, Cindy

TV,
Don’t be too impressed, I can really make your head spin with absolute absurdity :slight_smile: Just wait till I get rolling LOL!

On a serious note. Yes, I’m wondering why you don’t uphold those parts of the law? If God instruction to rest on the sabbath is moral, and his leadership requires that we kill Sabbath breakers, parent dishonoring children, or adulterers, Why do we not follow that leadership.

You’re asking me, if I don’t believe in the punishments for today, then why wouldn’t I commit adultery?

Because intuition tells me adultery is bad, but intuition tells me there’s nothing wrong with doing good work on Saturdays. My intuition tells me doing bad (evil) work on Saturdays is bad. But my intuition tells me doing bad (evil) work on ANY day of the week is bad.

I’m good with following morality - don’t commit adultery; murder; dishonoring parents; because they ONLY stem from love and the actual commands are shallow, which is why Jesus shows us how deep they really are. The truth is I think we can even break those commands and to right. For example, we may have to dishonor our parents to save them. We may have to lie to save jews. We may have to kill to save others and yet remain blameless.

If it’s impossible for God to lie. And the Devil is the father of all lies - then would you lie to Nazis in order to hide Jews?

Most Christians I meet (family included) argue they would not lie. Instead they would obey God’s command and hand the jews over to the murderers. I would say then God has placed you into a lose/lose situation. The right thing to do is lie. I embrace that because I don’t think the law is teaching us to “not lie” or “not murder” or “rest” - instead I believe cumulitive it’s teaching us to do justice, mercy which are from the one thing which Paul uses to sum it all up - LOVE.

Perhaps I’m wrong but that’s how I’ve dealt with such tensions.

Seems you’ve at least partially missed my point auggy. For it seems you don’t uphold “those parts” of the law either! That is, you don’t condone stoning for taking God’s name in vain, for adultery, or for dishonoring parents. Yet your unwillingness to stone that sort of lawbreaker in no way negates your respect and honor for the law itself! Why not? You don’t allow your non enforcement of the penalty for breaking commandments 3, 5 and 7 to diminish your embrace of those commandments at all: so why do you insist that I somehow must allow my unwillingness to enforce the “breaking” of the 4th commandment to equate with ignoring that commandment? Why the different set of rules here is all I want to know?

No, that’s actually not what I’m asking you. I’m simply asking why you don’t allow your unwillingness to enforce this commandment by stoning to alter your respect and keeping of that commandment. You don’t stone, yet still endorse the command; why can’t I be able to do that as well with the Sabbath command? And why would you be so eager to exempt yourself from keeping it too? From whence the confidence and initiative to carve that one out from the rest?

You seem to be trying to paint a dilemma for me with the assumption that it’s not a dilemma for you. But if it’s one for me, it is for you as well: that’s all I’m trying to get you to admit.

Have we now ceded the field of ethics and morality to intuition? How’d that work out in Judges – when every man did what what was right in his own eyes? Of course Romans also informs/reminds us that we all have consciences and inner guidance. Still, the “intuition” of the Germans in WW2 was that ridding the world of the Jewish race was a good thing… Something to contemplate…

But I’m bewildered at this idea that there should be any quarrel with the notion that there’s nothing wrong with doing good work on the Sabbath? For me that’s strawman pure and simple: for that’s exactly what Jesus was saying when HE did good on the Sabbath and thereby fulfilled it!

Whose gonna argue with following morality? But if you see in these commandments a shallowness that invites deeper exploration, why assume the same invitation does not exist for the Sabbath command?
Hey! It’s not ME who put it there! That seems to have been God’s idea. So why not see that command as an invitation to deeper understanding of it’s roots in love too?

Which is precisely what we see happening to the Sabbath command when acted out by Jesus… His actions were actually seen as violations – not embrace of the command. So there IS a “heart” behind all these commands; including the Sabbath one…

This insistence on carving out a separate class of respect and reverence for one particular Commandment yet bewilders me. I mean if the 10 represent the great “moral code” why on earth not at least exert effort to trying to discern why this particular one is included therein? That’s bugged me for a long time.

Now there’s another aspect which absolutely puzzles me: and that is this general Christian insistence on the Law somehow being done away with; being nailed to the Cross; new dispensation of grace instead of law and all that.
Hebrews 1 talks about the many and various ways God has spoken to us - but how the message has been perfected in the coming of His Son. To many this seems to convey a different message by the Son. A great many of you talk about a new covenant. As if it’s an entirely different and new message.

But it’s not: it’s the very same thing that mattered to God all along. Check out some of these beautiful passages which sound as if they “belong” in the New Testament…

How can this not be read as the core of what matters to God? An inner transformation of the heart? And the precise thing Jesus taught in the New Testament?
It’s been imagined that Jesus re-articulated the 10 commandments by summing them up as love of God and love of neighbor. No, all He was doing was reminding of already existent Old Testament ideas:

As for a new covenant? Not “new” really, but more like “RE-newed” (that is, in essence the very same one given to Abraham, and Job etc – for even Jeremiah was talking about the great internalizing of the law, which, when internalized we call “Love”.)

So the only way one can really “do away” with the law as I envision it, is to internalize it; to allow it to change our hearts. Which is the very thing God has always sought from those who worship Him!
Now somehow the Sabbath fits into that drama and progression. Whether we like it or not. Why else would it be right there in the midst of the Holy Oracles? I didn’t put it there, God did…
So the better question might be: what on earth could God have intended by placing this seemingly different command right in the midst of all the rest??

Why isn’t anyone asking That question??

Bobx3

(edited so as to not have Jeremiah quoting me! :blush: )

Beautifully said Bobx3! :sunglasses: