Auggy,
I echo your thoughts on how great it would be to live closer! Though we are currently on different sides of this particular debate, we are such a small minority of likeminded people as Evangelical Universalists. I’m sure all of us on this discussion would have some great times of fellowship together. I literally know not one soul in the state of Texas that would agree that God can and will reconcile all people.
Regarding the latest questions and Comments by Bob and yourself…
You ask how I can use the David example to Justify Jesus picking of grain as if this is far fetched. Do you see the Irony in asking me this? I am not the one that came up with the David example. *Jesus *is the one that used the David example to Justify his picking of grain It’s as if you and Bob can’t understand why Jesus would use that example, so I am just trying to explain why Jesus would refer to that. When they ask about why he is breaking the Sabbath, Jesus doesn’t say “Because I came to abolish the law” or “because the law kills but the Spirit gives life”. Jesus says in Luke 6:3 "***Have you not even read ***what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him.
So Jesus is using a Sabbath rule exception *found in scripure *for justification of what he did. Don’t you find that curious. I certainly do. So I naturally want to see if there are other exceptions found in scripture for the Sabbath since clearly “No Work whatsoever” is not what God appears to have commanded per Jesus words in Luke 6. And what I find in Leviticus is that the “No work whatsoever” Principle is NOT the whole story. The Priests were commanded differently and therefore were exempt from the “Thou shall not do any work on the sabbath”.
In my view, and I may be wrong, the reason Bob and you are unable to see Jesus point is because you have a false premise that No Work on the Sabbath was ever allowed. You cite OT scripture and also the current view of the Jews regarding the Sabbath. Both of which are different then how you are decribing.
Regarding Jewish views of the Sabbath- I would like to note that Jewish views on the Sabbath are not as cut and dry or simplistic as you both are describing it. I have read in many places that Orthodox and Conservative Jews have all kinds of views regarding the Sabbath that are all over the board. Some say you Cannot turn a light on or off while others don’t follow that. Some prohibit driving, others do not. Some prohibit using electronic devices, others do not. There are hundreds upon hundreds of Do’s and Don’t surrounding the Sabbath found in the Jewish law. Some Jews accept some of them and others reject those same Do’s and Don’ts. I have already pointed out that the Jewish Oral Tradition which existed at the time of Jesus contained 24 chapters (Mishnah) worth of Sabbath Do’s and Don’ts , and there are many things allowed on the Sabbath that some would consider work and others wouldn’t. It’s quite Laughable and silly to me actually. Even within the Mishnah itself you will find contradictions.
While Jewish law (halakha) prohibits doing any form of melakhah on Sabbath, One definition of Melakhah is “deliberate activity” or “skill and craftmanship”. So the lines are very Blurry even by Jewish Oral Law, and thus 24 Chapters devoted to trying to define what is “Work” or Melakhah. But even these laws regarding work are defined as laws for the common people and not for the Priests. The Sabbath was an entire day of activity for the Priests so naturally they were exempt, thus Jesus words:
Matt 12
Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?
So it seems I am repeating these same things over and over.
Auggy you ask…
My Answer is The Law was defined for the common folk, but for those Priests and Kings we see exceptions in Scripture. We see the Sabbath to be a day full of activities surrounding God and the Work of God, and the common people being told to abstain from their work, but a different calling for those doing the Work of God as Kings as Priests. And this is Jesus arguement. Have you not read in the law…the Priests on the Sabbath break the Sabbath law (common people law) and yet are innocent.
I DO believe the Pharisees thought Jesus was breaking the law, I really do believe that. I think they thought that for two reasons:
1 Their law was unclear and contradictory. It allowed for some things that seemed to contradict other things it disallowed. So, the things Jesus was doing, in some parts of their law seemed unlawful, though other parts of their law (animal in pit, and Davids innocence) justified what Jesus was doing.
2 They did not recognize Jesus Authority. If they did not recognize that Jesus was more than a common folk than they would naturally assume all the common folk laws would apply to him, and therefore him being a law breaker.
Auggy,
You argue…
I disagree. Look closely at Jesus words to the Pharisees regarding his work as an exception:
Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.
Jesus justification for what he did was to paraphrase"The law says the Priests in the Temple are innocent (exempt) but I am greater than those Priests in the Temple.
The NT repeats this at length and unmistakably, telling us Jesus is the “Great High Priest”. In fact, the work of the Priests on Sabbath were just foreshadows of what Jesus came to do. And David himself was a Type of the Messiah King Christ.
Jewish tradition refers to two redeemers: Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. One a King messiah and One a Suffering Messiah. We find in the NT that in Jesus these two Messiah’s were actually the same person. So even if the Jewish Tradition didn’t recognize the Suffering High Priest and the King as one in the same, in reality they were, and so through scripture we see that Jesus falls into that exempt category regarding the Sabbath. Just as the Priests and King David did according to OT scripture.