This seems to be a fairly comprehensive look at the history of Judaism and the afterlife. Let me know what you guys think.
Hi Aaron,
Note that Shammai was the President of the Sanhedrin during the ministry of Jesus, possibly dying just before or after Jesus’ DBR.
From religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm:
The School of Shammai offered this description:
There will be three groups on the Day of Judgment: one of thoroughly righteous people, one of thoroughly wicked people and one of people in between. The first group will be immediately inscribed for everlasting life; the second group will be doomed in Gehinnom [Hell], as it says, “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence” [Daniel 12:2], the third will go down to Gehinnom and squeal and rise again, as it says, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name and I will answer them” [Zechariah 13:9]… Babylonian Talmud, tractate Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a]
From near-death.com/experiences/judaism06.html:
As implied in the Book of Daniel, the Jewish notion of resurrection in the Maccabeean period was tied to a notion of judgment, and even to separate realms for the judged. In rabbinical thought, the model for heaven was Eden. The rabbinic word for hell, “Gehenna”, is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as “She’ol” and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of “purgatory.”
From jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm
Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She’ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba.
As noted in previous posts, Matthew is the one who predominantly uses the word Gehenna. Luke and Mark only mention Gehenna once each, and each of those is a copy of a passage in Matthew. And it’s interesting that Luke, in the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus does not use Gehenna, but the generic term Hades. And it’s interesting that Mark and Luke transliterate Gehenna, instead of translating it as Tartarus. If ECT was intended by Gehenna, then Tartarus would have been THE term to use to convey that concept. Of course, Matthew was written to the Jews, possibly in Hebrew or Aramaic originally, and focused on Jesus countering the attitudes, doctrine, and practices of the Pharisees especially and the Sadducees; so using the transliteration Gehenna was only natural for his Jewish audience would have understood the cultural context of that word, and the debates it fostered.
As you noted, Josephus does use wording indicating that the Pharisees taught ECT, and some of them did, for the most wicked such as Herod or Pharoah; but others taught annihilation. Josephus doesn’t mention that Shammai taught that most people suffered the flames of Gehenna for a season for purification before the rose to Ga Eden. But to me the quotes in the Mishnah and Talmud concerning the teachings of the school of Shammai carry more weight as evidence of what they actually taught than Josephus’ brief notes.
Anyhow, I believe that Jesus used the Pharisees’ Gehenna metaphor as a means of warning them of their bad attitudes and practices, and denouncing their doctrines. One of the most interesting uses of it was in Mt. 23:15 where Jesus uses it as a source or orientation, “son of Gehenna”. It’s not a place they being consigned to, but from which they live according to.
So, was Jesus affirming the Pharisees’ doctrine of Gehenna? I don’t know that He was, but he was certainly using it to challenge their attitudes and actions. The Pharisees tended to be exclusive, prideful, and self-righteous, condemning all “others” as not being acceptable to God and thus would be consigned to Gehenna for who knows how long. Jesus turned this weapon of fear on them affirming that if they did not repent, they need to fear the flames of Gehenna and will be judged by God themselves for mistreating others, for their pride, for their doctrine that nullifies the Word of God, for their…
Will there be punishment in the afterlife, remedial and/or punitive? I trust that in making things right, God will do as needed to accomplish His will in us all. What I fear most and believe will be the most devestating is the fire of undiminished Truth! I believe we shall all face, without choice, the absolute Truth concerning our lives, individually and collectively. And this Truth will burn the Hell out of us! All of our self-deception, cultural-deception, and demonic-deception will be stripped from us and we’ll face the Truth! And well, the truth will likely cause much weeping and grinding of teeth. We’ll need to ask forgiveness of those we’ve hurt and of the Lord. All of this will be done though on the foundation of the truth of the Love of God for us all, the revelation of the Atonement which redeemed us, provided for the forgiveness of all of our sins, and justified us in God’s sight. In order for forgiveness to reign, the truth must prevail. In order for there to be Justice, things made right, I believe there must be restitution and reconciliation. How God accomplishes all this in the eternal, I don’t know, and don’t know that anyone has a firm grasp on it. I just trust that He does because of the exceeding great and precious promises of such in His Word. And I live my life knowing that one day “I” will face the judgment. I even seek the Lord’s judgment Now, in my life, for I trust His judgments are good and true.
I didn’t see any mention of Gehenna. They did mention Rabbi Gamaliel (??- 50 CE) who became President of the Sahedrin after Shammai, around 30 CE. But they did not mention the teachings of Shammai (50 BCE - 30 CE) or Hillel (Gamaliel’s grandfather, 1?? BCE - 10 CE).
Do keep in mind that it was the general concensus for the next 1400 years that the earth was also flat . . .
Didn’t the Greeks talk about celestial spheres. I reckon most educated people knew the world was round, but until quite recently they also believed that the sky was solid. (Luther taught as much.) If you’re interested, here’s a fascinating article: faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hil … nt-WTJ.htm
Hi Sherman,
There is no evidence that the quote above was the personal opinion of Shammai himself. The students of the school he established (“Beth Shammai”) were known to have held to theological positions in opposition to the school of Hillel (“Beth Hillel”), which were not necessarily the exact positions of the two rabbis themselves:
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … illel.html
jewishencyclopedia.com/view. … 6&letter=B
The school of Shammai continued a good while after the death of Christ. In the article from Jewish Encyclopedia we read, “Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel continued their disputes—probably interrupted during the war times—after the destruction of the Temple, or until after the reorganization of the Sanhedrin under the presidency of Gamaliel II. (80 C.E.)” So what you quote above could simply have been the most recent known position of the students of Shammai’s school (which was the less popular of the two schools). By the time the statement expressing the position of his school appeared in the Babylonian Talmud (the codification of which took place in the 5th century), this was the known consensus of the students of the school, and not necessarily a direct quote from Shammai himself or even a reflection of his personal opinion while he was alive. So the quote from “Beth Shammai” as it appears in the Babylonian Talmud is actually no evidence that the Pharisees in Christ’s day believed in temporary or remedial punishment.
What is the source of the last quote above? The Babylonian Talmud speaks of people being punished for 12 months, but the implication is that they would be annihilated after that. Akiva ben Joseph is said to have believed that the suffering of the wicked in Gehenna was for only 12 months (books.google.com/books?id=C_d3-K … A9&f=false - see Chapter 2 Mishnah 10) but he lived after Christ’s day (ca.50–ca.135 CE). If this had been believed and taught by a rabbi before him I think it’s likely that the Mishnah would’ve mentioned it. Since it doesn’t, I think we can safely assume that this was not being taught before or while Christ was alive. Also, there is no suggestion that Akiva ben Joseph’s opinion was prevalent among the Jews even in his day.
I think Josephus failed to mention it because it was either a minority view among the Pharisees or it was not known to him. As far as the Mishnah and Talmud, I do think these works carry much weight as evidence of what was being taught by certain rabbis when these works were redacted, but they were redacted after Christ’s day.
This is a very interesting discussion.
Aaron, would you say that Jews generally did believe in a form of ECT as a whole at the time of Jesus?
If, as Aaron seems to be asserting, the majority belief among the Jews was Gehenna as ECT, how does this change the UR perspective of Jesus’ words and warnings, since he never explicitly corrected this belief?
Where does Jesus uphold their view of eternal punishment? As I understand correctly, there was a fairly diverse belief in the first century. Some believed in the resurrection and some did not. Some Jews believed in reincarnation and some did not. Some believed in ECT and some did not. However, what is interesting is even though many supposedly believed in ECT, where did they get this? It’s not from the Old Testament because the OT is almost completely silent on it. My point for this thread was that, based on the scriptures, they would have had to have gotten most of their post mortem beliefs from non biblical sources since the OT is pretty quiet on such things.
i agree with this.
also Jesus, in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, could almost be seen to be satirising their views as He tells them they would understand if they but listened to Moses and the Prophets, none of whom taught these strange doctrines. they taught Sheol as death: a place of unconscious nonbeing.
That’s an interesting question. I think that Aaron has some challenges for Sherman to answer. Chris, even if the OT would be the authority on such issues (is it, or is Christ?), Jesus is speaking of Gehenna (not spoken of as post mortem suffering place in OT) which is “non biblical” in the sense that it isn’t in the OT.
not sure how to answer that totally, but i would think that the OT, being inspired, wouldn’t be contradicted by Christ…only fulfilled.
so i personally take what David and Solomon both wrote about Sheol as a Scriptural view. i’ve heard many Christians try to say “oh, their knowledge was imperfect” to dismiss it as it threatened their view that you go instantly whereever you deserve to go right after death. i don’t personally believe the Bible teaches that view, and so i go with the OT view.
also, God didn’t say the wages of sin was ECT, He says “death”. anything Jesus said after would shine light on that, and perhaps dismiss a few assumptions people had made, but i don’t believe that His words would contradict.
also, i’ve found that some of His words made sense in an OT context, as technically (in my view) the new covenant doesn’t begin until He dies and rises again.
You don’t think that anything Jesus uttered was new revelation that could not be found in the OT? Certainly, He used Gehenna in a way that the OT did not.
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Hey Roof,
Jesus definitely brought all kinds of new things to the table. Some things that were very difficult (if you even look with lust…), and some which were astoundingly wonderful (you are my friends…). The strange thing is that these modern authors are defending hell by saying that Jesus was addressing that which they were already completely familiar with - ECT. The problem is that they couldn’t have gotten any elaborate ideas from the Old Testament and therefore they were not getting it from what we conservatives understand as authoritative revelation. The truth is, they were drawing many ideas from the Greek culture they were immersed in. The Greeks had an elaborate ECT. They were also getting it from apocryphal literature. Unless we want to open an enormous can of worms by saying that the apocryphal literature was authoritative as revelation from God, we should stick with accepted revelation. If you were to walk away from the old testament after several reads for over arching themes on God, sin, punishment, etc, you would never walk away saying, “well it would be obvious, when God punishes sin he would torment unrepentant sinners for eternity.” This theme simply does not exist in the scriptures anywhere. You see a God who relents, who says “enough”, who is filled with mercy and compassion, even at those who are sinning against Him. His wrath builds up, pours out, and finishes its purpose.
I’m not really sure about “as a whole.” But it does seem as if the doctrine was general among the Pharisees and Essenes - and the Pharisees most likely had the greatest influence on the Jewish people as a whole than any other sect.
What I find interesting is how Jesus reserved his strongest rebukes of the wickedness of the Jews of his generation for the scribes and Pharisees (e.g., Mt. 5:20; 23:1-36) rather than the Sadducees. While he warns his disciples to beware of the doctrine of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees and tells the Sadducees they were mistaken for not believing that those who died would be restored to a living existence, it doesn’t seem as if Jesus generally viewed them as “hypocrites” or as great a threat to the moral/spiritual health of the nation.
It’s something worth pondering.
I can see where the assertion could be made that the theme of ECT couldn’t be found in the OT, but couldn’t the Pharisees have inferred it from the end times prophecy of Daniel 12:2 and then read it into their Gehenna tradition? I’m also interested to hear if anyone can provide a non-ECT view of that verse as well, since that seems to be the first mention of anything like that.
That is the reason why I said that they could not have formed any **elaborate belief **on ECT. There are 2 verses that I am aware of with the Daniel verse being the most specific. But this verse is in Daniel which is really late in the Old Testament in terms of date of authorship from the earlier books of Moses. In other words there were several thousand years before there was a scriptural mention of possible ECT. They would not have been able to develop a complex theology that was scriptural since there was virtually no scripture to draw off of. Furthermore, the beliefs that they did hold come from other sources, such as the book of Enoch, the Greeks and their well developed view of the afterlife, and perhaps, their imaginations. Whatever the source, the old testament offered very little and all the extra details outside of the simple idea of eternal punishment and reward were not from the bible and are therefore, inadmissible according to what conservatives traditionally accept. Therefore, when Chan and company claim that their early belief in hell was proof of its veracity, they are simply out of line. I kind of remember Jesus being quite critical of the pharisees and sadducees. It would seem that following their lead would make you “twice the son of hell that they were”, according to Jesus, if you followed their proselytizing. It seems to me that they weren’t too spiritually keen at the time of Christ.
Regarding the Daniel passage, there is another thread in this forum discussing that passage.
So Aaron, if I understand you correctly, you do not believe that the references to what the school of Shammai taught in the Talmud and Misnah reflect what they taught during the time of Christ, but what they taught some time after that, and that what the school of Shammai taught does not necessarily reflect what Shammai himself taught.
That’s possible, but I think otherwise. I think that the school of Shammai expouned upon what Shammai believed and taught, similar to Calvinistic schools teach and expound upon what Calvin believed and taught, though 100’s, even 1000’s of years could separate the two. The beliefs and concepts of various teachers were handed down from generation to generation pretty legalistically by word of mouth, and was actually called the Oral Law. It’s an interesting study. And to me, Shammai being the president of the Sanhedrin during the life of Christ is significant to me and would have been a major factor in Jesus’ rebuke and rebuttal of the Pharisees.
So, does Jesus use of Gehenna in some way endorse the teachings on this from the school of Shammai? I don’t think so. Rather, it was a term loaded with theological meaning to the Pharisee that Jesus used to rebuke the Pharisees, to warn them of judgment to come. The purgative sence of Gehenna can be seen in the Mark 9 passage. And then the Pharisees’ debate concerning the especially wicked suffering indefinitely long or annihilated in Gehenna can possibly be alluded to when Jesus says to not fear man who can only kill the body, but to fear God who “can destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna. Which could indicate that the worst possible punishment that God would consider would be annihilation, though it doesn’t actually affirm that such will happen to anyone, only that such is possible for God is the one who gives and sustains existance.
Of course with Gehenna being a physical place, if it’s true that it was a trash dump with no shortage of maggots and a continuous fire, then when Jesus warns of progressive wrong attitudes/actions (anger, calling someone a fool (raca), and being a rebel (morah)) in Mt.5.22, and the progressive punishments of local civil judgment, the Sanhedrin judgment, and ultimately being cast into Gehenna, which could speak of Roman judgment of Rebels (crucifixion and cast unburied in the trash). And this understanding also seems to fit James where it says that one speaks from Gehenna, having a Trash-mouth syndrome.
And then of course, the passages that allude to Gehenna and weeping and gnashing of teeth in regard to Israel could pull in the OT use of Gehenna speaking of the judgment and destruction of Jerusalem. This perspective is powerful and each passage could be interpreted from this perspective, not necessarily as predicting the destruction of Jerusalem, but as the most painful example to the Jew of the judgment of God, destruction of evil, shame and reproach of a life for generations to come!
So it seems to me that Gehenna was a term filled with various meanings and Jesus used them to call people to repentance, warning of punishment in this life and possibly even the world to come. What I don’t see is any significant evidence in support of ECT, especially when one considers that Olam does not imply “endless” but that which is beyond, and Olam Haba seems to reference the world/age to come, and often the age of the Messiah. Sadly though it’s translated as “forever” or “eternal”. I think any punishment we might face will be solely for remedial purposes, to cleanse and heal our soul, meant for our good though it might be terrible. Mainly though I think that just facing the fire of truth will be bad enough, burning the hell/evil from us. Weeping and grinding of teeth both speak to me of repentance and remorse.
I believe that the concept of ECT and relating that to Gehenna was a much later development, one that came from Greco-Roman mythology, reading Tartarus into Gehenna, Greek mythology into Jewish terminology.
Im following this from InChristalone’s introduction and it’s very interesting.
My sympathies lie with Dirtboy. I don’t see how any elaborate and articulated belief in the afterlife could have been held since they did not even know if a ressurection (from Daniel) was literal or not. Sure the pharisees believe in a literal ressurection in contrast to the sad. But even if they did, does that conclude that ALL pharisees agreed on the nature of punishment in the afterlife. I hardly doubt anyone could prove it.
Aug
The other point I would make is that Francis Chan seems to place all his chips on the weight of jewish belief. So what if they believed in ECT. What does that prove? It proves it’s a possibility? Logically? None of us would say ECT makes no sense in it’s definition. Of course it could be true on a possible level. But we disagree with it because it conflicts with Cor 13 and many other passages.
But what if some believed in Annihilation? Would Francis Chan then say that Ann. is true? What if some believed in universal redepmtion? The Jews were wrong about many things like worrying about eating yeast. And why? Because the OT said don’t eat yeast. It’s as if people don’t get the depth of scripture. It appears to me the subtext trumps the context and that is something everyone fears (esp. exegetes).