The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Should we form universalist congregations?

Guys, thanks for the honesty. Firstborn888, I’m praying for you. It hurts me that people have been so damaged in the name of ‘orthodoxy’ (the more so when the issue at stake has never been given creedal status). I get the feeling things in the UK are generally not quite so black-and-white so perhaps that’s why I resist the idea of a new denomination more easily than others. Eschatology doesn’t seem to have the same divisive influence over here, at least from what I’ve heard about the US.

Certainly I am hopeful for my church, which is on the whole pretty generous, and I’m quite confident that, when the time comes to talk about it, the leadership and some key thinkers in the church will hear me out. Should I ever preach about it (i’ve let a few clues slip from time to time, and seen my wife give me knowing looks!) I’m sure there will be many in the congregation who will not understand. I get concerned emails about my non-belief in heaven (i.e. I preach against the ‘heaven when we die’ version of Christianity) and some have even said I don’t believe in the Trinity (no idea how they got that!) so a lot of people won’t understand how I got here.

I’m just really saddened by the effects holding to such a beautiful truth can have on people’s lives. Suffering for defending the faith is one thing, and to be expected, but suffering at the hands of family and fellow believers for defending one version of a murky part of the faith? Not so sure that should happen in the Kingdom.

Anyway - God’s richest blessings on you Firstborn888, and on any who have similar stories. You are all welcome here any time you’re passing by!

Jamie

First,
Wow, my prayers are with you bro. I had in my mind from out last year or so that everything was perfect for you never thinking about what life is really like for you.

I’d love to hear your music. I used to write but have not touched it for years. I’ve got a small music studio Cubase, Gigastudio, Atmosphere and stylus RMX bla bla bla : )

I mainly use it for wedding videos now.

if you haven’t been to my site check out the vids and give me your thoughts
www.gigdv.com

Anyhow bro, I’m sorry to hear it’s been so hard.

with love,

Auggy (Gene)

Very Nice site AUG! Mine is here:
spearssoundstudio.com/Welcome.html

Byron (firstborn888),

I’m glad to read more about you while I grieve with you. My prayers and heart go out to you.

I had to resign my US Assemblies of God (A/G) ministry credentials for me to teach my newly modified eschatology per A/G bylaws, but unlike you, I wasn’t a paid minister. I cannot fully comprehend what you’re going through. All I know is that I felt glad that I didn’t have a paid pastorate when I needed to resign. I see that your story epitomizes the need for The Evangelical Universalist forum board.

I offer you my spirit and mind in any way possible in the Lord. Since I’m a charismatic universalist (a subset of evangelical universalists), I might have something to offer you.: )

I want to share some of my vision. The Lord led me to seek out ministerial fellowships who would tolerate my universalist eschatology. And I found some. Praise the Lord! (My wife and I also consider other church factors while we consider our family’s church home in Central NY.)

I have the liberty to share one possibility for me. My friend John Elmer is a Vineyard USA regional leader and pastor. Here is an email quote from John:

“As far as your eschatology theology, it is not a litmus test for partnership here. We have a variety here because we don’t make it a core of our doctrine. Much higher on the scale is character and spiritual passion. I think if anyone got too militant (disruptive) and dogmatic on eschatology theology we would have a talk. I will be praying that your family finds a good spiritual home where they can grow in all that Jesus has for them.”

And John gave me the okay to post his quote in The Evangelical Universalist forum board.: )

I have a vision that many charismatic churches will take this attitude toward evangelical universalism (EU). And sound biblical studies combined with gentle prophetic voices will help to establish EU as the prevailing eschatology in the charismatic movement.

Thanks for your responses all. Sometimes while in worship services the awesome presence of God’s goodness would envelope us I would ask the “Lord, why can’t they see what I see” and I always sensed the response “They will” but I always interpreted it to mean when “we see Him as He is” way off in the future. Maybe I won’t have to wait that long after all. :slight_smile:
Blessings,

  • Byron

Sometimes I’ll be in a service listening to hymns or professions of hope, and part of me is happy to hear them, but part of me is sad because I can’t help thinking: “you don’t really believe that… you don’t know what it is you’re saying.” :frowning:

Maybe we should have a thread devoted to reporting universalistic hope still embedded in hymns.

Guys

I just wanted to say ‘Thanks’ to you all for an honest and wondeful conversation! Just what the forum is for

Jason, please post all that you can think of about universalistic hope still embedded in hymns in “General Theology” or “Church”.: )

Gregory,
Thank you for helping us and motivating us. Indeed if there was a denomination that began, it would certainly have been benefited by you sharing your vision. Your helping others is important.

I’m very much like Mr. Pratt who sings a song and finds myself a bit taken back by the words. Sometimes I sing it louder becuase the hymn is so telling like…

Proned to wander oh Lord I feel it,
Proned to leave the God I love,
Here’s my heart Lord, take and seal it,
seal it for thy courts above.

though it’s not really a U. statement, it still moves me and I find myself at tears with such truth.

But then I get some other song and just think ohhhh BLA! :slight_smile:

What ever the case I have a deep yearning for this viewpoint to break out of it’s box.
I long for the day when people can truly be inclusive in their view of the world and exclusive in the source of such love (Faith alone in Christ).
Aug

Gregory, a belated thank you for so coherently arguing that the Bible’s story and theology point us toward a universal hope! I too want us to stay in evangelical churches rather than form separate bodies who would put the premium on universalism and encourage other vital truths of our faith to be diminished. And I would never want to break fellowship with other believers.

But on a practical level do you perceive that such churches will allow us to participate? Or are you assuming that this generally can only happen if we remain silent? My perception is that the assumption that God will discard most of his beloved creation to an unredemptive and endless retribution (ECT) poses great obstacles concerning God’s character especially among many of the lost. You indeed are eloquent about this. So do you see this as not significant enough to take opportunity in our congregations to graciously share the possibility of a wider hope. Most believers cannot share such a hope pseudononymously. What have you observed in your own church experience about addressing this dilemma?
Grace be with you, Bob Wilson

I know “Gregory” has to work with a pseudonym in order to protect his teaching job; and I myself can say with some certainty that there is no way the church I currently attend would allow me to be a small-group teacher, much less one of the pastors (even though they desperately need both and even though I certainly qualify as capable enough). And in a way I wouldn’t want to be, because that would introduce too much schism into the leadership corps. We have Arminians and Calvinists both, and that can sometimes lead to serious problems; but at least they all agree that God will not be saving some (many/most) people from sin!

I can be an apologist without necessarily talking about my universalism at any given time; as I do over at the Cadre (which also features a mix of Calv and Arm soteriologists. Though notably I reserve the right to affirm and profess and preach universalism in the comments! :smiley: ) And I could teach various Biblical and theological things without necessarily being a universalist (maybe–though the scriptures are so saturated in it, that to some degree I would have to truncate my teaching to avoid it! :smiley: ) But I don’t believe I can be an evangelist without referencing it; how am I supposed to preach the gospel and train and encourage other people to do the same–a gospel of repentence unto the sending away of sin–without mentioning the scope of the hope of the gospel!? It would be like trying to teach Christology without mentioning the honor, attributes, nature, deeds and seat of Christ. Anything less, just isn’t enough. :slight_smile:

(Not incidentally, when I occasionally contribute a sermon to the main Cadre posts, you can just about bet that sooner or later I’ll refer to the ultimate hope of the gospel. You can also bet with a high degree of certainty, that whatever form the cosmology may look like at any given time in my series of novels, sooner or later, to this or that degree, I’ll be talking about what I am always thinking of in the background: the hope of the gospel, that God will go the farthest distance to seek and save the lost and never give up on them, even when, in various ways, they’ve given up on Him.)

Gregory, can you fill us in on this? I think we’d all like to hear a bit about your experience.

Aug

I’m with Gregory on this one. I see no need for creating ‘universalist congregations’. Things are fragmented enough - would a universalist church be superior to the Orthodox? I don’t think so. The fact is - it has been tried and was marginalized by the rest of church. As a Lutheran, I can find universalistic truths in Luther and the fathers, the Orthodox have the fathers, the Catholics have the fathers. All our roots are the same.

So if not UR congregations, should ECT congregations allow UR members? IOW should I be able to speak freely about my UR views?

That’s an excellent question. And one with some very tough answers, I think. There are lots of angles to consider–and they don’t all come out in our favor.

(I’m working on another project this weekend, that I hope to finish, but I think this question is worth at least an initial essay. Until then, would anyone care to volunteer some non-obvious angles to the question…?)

Well, down here in the bible belt (Texas) UR doesn’t go over too good. For many evangelicals avoiding eternal hell is the name of the game. If you take that out of the equation then it’s ‘game over’. :wink:

Thanks folks, Jason I’ll be waiting on your reply. My wife won’t even discuss it with me. She asked me to keep my views to myself. It embarasses here when I ask questions to other folks. I’m not 100% sold on UR although I 100% want it to be true. I spent 40+ years believing in ECT or at least thinking I had to. I had a very vivid dream that started my search. Basically I woke from the dream with the thoughts I’d never do that to anyone. I thought it was the Lord but how can I be sure. Anyway that was about four years ago and I’ve gone between doubt and elation. It gets tiring. Maybe you folks could share how you transfered from traditional beliefs to UR. I haven’t read GM’s book yet. I can’t really spend what it costs without explaining it to my wife. Its just not worth the friction that it causes.

Again Thanks for Posting

Still in One Peace

Mike from Georgia

That’s a great sign-off by the way. :slight_smile: (And glad you were able to register in; I saw your message at Gregory’s blog, but by then you had already posted once, so I didn’t bother answering.)

I hope to put up an essay on the various difficulties later, somewhere else. (This is Gregory’s particular category, and I feel like I’m intruding as a co-host when I post much here.)

I also think it would be a good idea to create a whole discussion category for ‘conversion’ stories, so to speak, either to UR or away from it. (We want to be fair, and that might be useful, too. The category would be more for giving a witness story, than for technical discussion, which ought to happen elsewhere.)

As for me, I have always been a universalist at heart, but for many years I couldn’t in good conscience teach it or argue for it because I simply couldn’t see enough scriptural data in favor of it (not having studied enough) and didn’t know of any rationale for legitimately interpreting one apparent type of verses in light of another apparent type. (Though that cut both ways, of course.) After I studied trinitarian theism more closely, in terms of logical coherency, I came to understand that hope for God to always be acting toward saving all sinners from sin, follows as a logical corollary from trinitarian theism. With that, I had an overarching rationale for interpreting one set in light of another; but I didn’t want to simply force interpretations into disparate data so I held back promoting it scripturally for several years until I could study the scriptural issues much further on their own testimony.

One thing that impresses me now, is that the witness for it is scattered so widely and pervasively throughout the scriptures (just like ortho-trin), and yet there is (even for me) a tendency to block out the meaning of what’s being said. In personal scrutiny, I’m sure that this is caused by my intrinsic uncharity; though it may be different for other people. (In many cases, I think it happens from reading scriptures atomistically instead of looking for narrative and thematic contexts. I’m still routinely discovering new data that I had missed before precisely for that reason, too.)

Anyway, I would be glad to send you a copy of Gregory’s EU, through an Amazon wish list, gratis. :sunglasses: You can also page through his book online for free at Amazon, a few pages at a time, with some persistence and Amazon’s “Search Inside The Book” feature.

Back to work…

Thanks again Jason. With your permission I may start a topic on conversions. I will go online and read as much of TEU as I can. I appreciate the info.

This is where I am right now. It helps to see that this may be a natural progression. Its encouraging.

I am unfamiliar with trinitarian theism so I guess I have some research to do.

Again you have been very helpful.

Mike

Not entirely sure which category to send you to for that… which is why I hope one of the admins will create a special topical category for it, somewhere.

Until then, I recommend posting your conversion story (so far) as a new thread in the “Introductions” category. The topic of the thread shouldn’t be UR conversions generally, but that’s certainly a very valid topic in an introduction thread about yourself.

Back to-work-from-lunch… :mrgreen: