This is possibly the best discussion I’ve had on the Trinity, and I find it very helpful, so thanks to you all! I’m essentially trying to start afresh and work out how we get from the New Testament to the concept of the Trinity, and why nothing less seems to do. Is it really the case that the whole of Christianity unravels if it is not true?
Here’s a thought I’ve had for a while… God made us in His image. We, as perfect humans, are God’s sons (and daughters). We messed that up because of sin, but by choosing Christ we can be adopted back into God’s family, reclaiming our place as His children. As such, God became a Father when He created us. It is not solely “Jesus” which makes Him a Father.
Added to which, I understand the phrase “son of…” to describe character. For example, the phrase “He’s his father’s son” is more than merely biological. It mean the son has the character of the father. An example from Scripture: Mark 3:17 where “Sons of Thunder” are clearly character descriptions. Jesus being the “Son of God” illustrates that he had the character of God… hence the miracles, healings, wisdom, etc.
I do not think that God is the biological father of Jesus. Just as God can miraculously heal people, He miraculously allowed Mary to become pregnant. I used to think, “Ahh, but the Bible says Jesus is God’s only ‘begotten’ son” (as per the KJV, NKJV, etc). Most translations nowadays render the verse, " sononly" or, " sonone and only." The word means “unique.” Where the rest of humanity sinned (and fell short of God’s glory), Jesus did not. He was the sinless man, the true child of God, not needed to be adopted back into God’s family as he never left it in the first place. He is the true image of God, and as such he has the characteristics of God (“Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father…”). That, to me, is why he is the Messiah.
[This theme will be picked up later in my post.]
I see what you’re trying to get at, but can we really use Joseph and Pharaoh as an analogy of Jesus and God? I’m not sure…
I’m not that much of a mathematician!
Ok, here’s another thought (picking up the Messiah theme): Jesus is the mediator between us and God. That was the role of the Messiah: to reconcile us to God. As such, we are still commanded to worship God (Father) alone, but it is Jesus who brings our worship to the Father. When we pray to and worship God, Jesus takes our acts of worship and offers them to God on our behalf. When we pray to and worship Jesus, I believe he takes that to God as well… there is the understanding that Jesus must be the mediator, so when we direct our acts of worship to him, it is because we know that he must then take them to God.
I worship Jesus with the above understanding. I do this for two reasons:
- It makes it easier following along at church services.
- I’m still figuring it out myself: I am aware that I may be wrong and do not wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
However, I will still agree that:
- Jesus is the only way to the Father.
- Jesus is the image of God.
- Jesus is the “Son of God” (characteristically).
- Jesus is perfect.
and so on.
One question I have is why there is little (if any) worship of the Holy Spirit… if God is indeed Trinity?
[But I do not wish for this question to take over the discussion… Robin talks about it in his [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Worshipping-Trinity-Coming-Heart-Worship/dp/1842273477/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301961116&sr=8-1]book.]