The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Terms for Eternity: Aiônios & aïdios" talk part 2

David,
Did you go into your study with any prior Christian beliefs about the matter?
R

No, I didn’t; as I mentioned in earlier correspondence, I was raised in a Jewish family, and have not been a believer of any sort since I was about ten years old. (My wife is Catholic, I should point out, but our difference on the score has in no way interfered with our marriage.) I got interested in Christianity as a part of the classical world; like almost all classicists, I had imagined a wall between the pagan and Jewish or Christian worlds. Friends made me aware of the towering intellectual presence of the church fathers, for instance, and about 15 years ago I joined the Society of Biblical Literature, where I am now co-editor of a series and haven’t missed a meeting since then. My horizons began expanding when I wrote a book on friendship, and inquired why most early Christian writers – but not all – preferred the vocabulary of brotherhood to friendship, and then I began working on pity, and more particularly on divine pity, and this too took me into new areas.

  So that’s the autobiographical part of the story.

              Warmest greetings,


              David

Thanks for the interesting reply!

Bob,
What do you think of the argument that in Matthew 24, where we read of both eternal life and eternal punishment, it could read “the life of the age to come” or “the punishment of the age to come”? This would interpret it to mean something different than “forever”. David, what would you say?
Ro

He is God throughout the ages, seen and unseen. Thus, aionios. :wink:

Indeed, I agree: where I see aionios in such contexts, I’m inclined to read “of the age to come.”

        Very best,  David

Indeed! I am looking forward to ordering your book.

You were responding to me, right?

Yes, I think so, although I think his response applies to StudentOfTheWord’s too, as the “unseen” age is the “age to come”.

From Hebrews:
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

He has made perfect “forever”. This doesn’t seem to fit the universalist translation of aion (assuming that this is the word in the scriptures mentioned). He has made perfect “for the age to come”? do you think that this works? Seems like it doesn’t…
r

Personally, I think so. He made perfect for the age to come, written as what ‘age to come’ although at the time it was written was a present reality. That, presently, the one sacrifice is now what was, and therefore is what is now is continues into what is to come. We are in that present perfect “forever”, whereas prior to the one sacrifice, it was for an age to come.

Ya lost me, sorry :slight_smile:

Writing from France, so only occasionally in touch this next week. StudentoftheWord’s answer sounds like a good answer to me. By the way, I’m negotiating with the publisher to produce an affordable version of Terms for Eternity.

  Warmest wishes, David

Thanks for the reply, David. I can’t get the grammar for this statement: “He made perfect for the age to come, written as what ‘age to come’ although at the time it was written was a present reality.”

"written as what “age to come”- what does that mean?

Oops. Sorry Roofus.

Let me make a picture.


So from Paul’s perspective when he wrote this, he was looking backward to prior to the One Sacrifice, stating that prior they were looking forward to the Perfect Age. He was explaining a past event that had already come to pass.

He, and so are we, and those to come are presently in the perfect age (which was (Paul’s time), which is (Our present time), and is to come (Our children’s future).

If any of you know David Bradshaw (University of Kentucky), author of Aristotle East and West: Metaphysics and the Division of Christendom (Cambridge Univ. Press, 2007), he also has an interesting article on time as understood by the Greek fathers.

Tom

Time and Eternity in Greek Fathers (published).pdf (2.47 MB)

I don’t understand why this is an issue. The chains can be eternal, everlasting; but there is no reason to believe that the angels will continue to be bound by the “eternal” chains (meant to be understood as literal or metaphorical?) after the judgment, especially if one understands the judgment to be remedial and reconcilatory in nature and purpose. God’s dealings in His realm, the realm beyond time, sometimes breaks into this realm of time like with the destruction of Sodom by “eternal fire”.

To me, the primary understanding of aionios needs to be based on the Hebrew concept of olam, which is more pictoral and not as linear and specific as the Greek. When we read aionios in the Greek text, it is attempting to communicate the Hebrew concept of olam.

Fascinating and extensive research! I look forward to reading Dr. Konstan’s book when I can. I see that Dr. Konstan has not posted in awhile, but I do have a question for him.

Dr. Konstan, I was wondering what are your thoughts on the idea that ‘aion’ derives from the verb aio (which, I gather, meant “to breathe”), as some scholars have suggested? This particular etymology makes sense to me, for breathing is cyclical, just as the aions are. What do you think?

I’ve just emailed David, as he’s been away in Istanbul and I’m not sure he’s checked here for awhile…

Just because the adjective “αιωνιος” may be used to describe that which is everlasting DOES NOT IMPLY that the word sometimes MEANS “everlasting” — just as the fact that the word “tall” can be used to describe objects over 20 ft. high does not imply that “tall” sometimes MEANS “over 20 ft. high”. The meaning of “αιωνιος” is lasting. In secular Greek literature it was used to describe a stone wall. A stone wall is lasting. It can also be used to describe God. God is lasting. The fact that He also happens to be everlasting is irrelevant as far as the meaning of the word is concerned.

1 Like