Hello from Sherman

[Sherman]

Hello everyone,

I look forward to getting to know and discussing scripture with you all. To let you know a little about me:

I was raised in as a child, went to Bible school, and preached in the Church of Christ as a young man. I came to be baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was 24 and joined a Pentecostal Church. I went to ORU when I was 26, though only for one year. When I was 28 I continued my education at Regent University eventually getting an MA in Missiology (cross-cultural communication of the Gospel and church development). I've served in a Christian interdenominational broadcasting ministry for 18 years.

Last year I began a study of UR, trying to do so with an open mind and heart but assuming that I'd disprove it. I was very suprised to find my beliefs changing as I studied related scriptures affirming UR like Rom.5.18. In fact, I set aside the scriptures affirming UR and started a study of scripture concerning Hell. I quickly found that not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture correctly translates as Hell. And it was my study of what Gehenna meant to the Jew that actually set me free to believe in UR. I found that Gehenna was a Jewish theological metaphor that spoke primarily of Remedial judgment/punishment in the afterlife, that most people, Jew and Gentile, were believed to be purified in Gehenna before they rose to Ga Eden. Of course, Jewish Rabbis also argued over the state of especially wicked people, whether or not they too would rise to Ga Eden, be destroyed, or continue to suffer indefinitely long in Gehenna as the Lord saw fit. But for most people, Gehenna was a place of Remedial punishment, as in Purgatory.

Understanding Gehenna as Purgatory was my tipping point, the piece of information that freed me to believe that when Jesus said that if He was crucified that He'd draw all humanity to Himself, He really meant it. And when Paul said that just as the sin of Adam got us all in this mess, the sacrifice of Christ gets us all out of it, he too really meant it. It also freed me to recieve the passages on Judgment as being for me - not just for others. In other words, I've come to believe that I too shall be judged, my life, my actions, what I did with what God gave me. I'll too be judged - rewarded for the good and punished for the bad as is needed for the healing of my soul. In fact, as one who is privaledged to know the salvation of Christ, I am more responsible to live in such life than those who do not know of it. To whom much is given, much is required.

As I've shared my change in beliefs with others, I've been suprised at the fear it has uncovered in others and the vehemenance with which I've been attacked. I didn't realize how important the Certainty of Damnation for Others is to many people. The Certainty of Damnation for Others is a primary motive behind their view of others, their motivation for sharing such Bad News, and much of their negative judgmental attitudes towards others, and their feeling good about themselves. Their faith in Damnation for others seems to be as strong as their faith in Christ for salvation for themselves. Though they have faith in Christ for their own salvation because of the atonement, they have faith for the damnation of others inspite of the atonement.

Well, it seems I'm just venting now, forgive me. Recently I was banned from another forum for coming to believe in UR. I had been a member of that forum for almost 4 years and really enjoyed the discussions. Previously I had disagreed with many on the site on many topics, including the essence of salvation, Marriage Divorce & Remarriage, the baptism with the Spirit, etc. But when I started showing from scripture why I'd come to believe in the salvation of Christ for all humanity, I was banned with no discussion of such - though I'm always very careful to be respectful of others in my posts, and even though the site's statement of faith does not include anything about one having to have faith in the certainty of damnation for others!

Anyhow, I look forward to discussing things with you here, especially with those who disagree with my beliefs and my understanding of scripture. I enjoy learning from and with others.

Blessings,
Sherman

[Aaron37]

Sherman

Thanks for sharing. Its not that the damnation doctrine is important to believers, but it is important to believers to follow sound biblical doctrine.The bible warns of false teachers in the body of Christ and their judgment (1Timothy;2 Timothy; 2 Peter chapter 2; Jude, etc) I notice you keep using the unbiblical word "Purgatory"..I wander where that came from( RCC) Anyway, look forward to healthy and respectful conversations.

God bless,
Aaron

[JasonPratt]

Thanks for the intro, Sherman!

Not all of us are specifically missionaries (though some are--one of our mods is or was a longtime missionary to the Middle East, Iraq and Syria if I recall correctly), so it'll be interesting to hear some stories from the front line there. (Even if your mission field isn't literally the front line in other ways. )

Most of us here disagree with one another on various things--sometimes at length --but currently only three or four are disagreeable about their disagreements (so to speak). We won't ban anyone just for holding a belief, but the admins and mods (myself included) are rather on edge at the moment due to those people and attitudes.

As long as you don't demonize the motives of non-universalists, though, you should be okay. As A37 notes, typically they're just trying to protect from what they consider not only false doctrine but false doctrine with unspeakably hopeless and terrifying consequences if promoted. (I've met I think only one non-universalist personally who was gung-ho on the notion that we should be glad those damned non-elect are going to fry and not be wimpy about having pity on them. He was a Calvinist, as you might have guessed; also not someone who posts on this board. But most Calvs I've met don't go that far.)

The site owners would prefer for the forum to be a place for technical discussion, not for venting, or trying to score rhetorical points--whether to amuse yourself or in order to 'provoke' discussion or otherwise. We're usually pretty lenient even about that, but as noted we're a bit on edge right now.

[Sherman]

Sherman

Thanks for sharing. Its not that the damnation doctrine is important to believers, but it is important to believers to follow sound biblical doctrine.The bible warns of false teachers in the body of Christ and their judgment (1Timothy;2 Timothy; 2 Peter chapter 2; Jude, etc) I notice you keep using the unbiblical word "Purgatory"..I wander where that came from( RCC) Anyway, look forward to healthy and respectful conversations.

God bless,
Aaron

Hi Aaron,

As to the importance of sound biblical doctrine, I agree. And of course there are and will be various teachers and spiritual leaders who are dishonest, who teach in order to decieve others and benefit themselves (false teachers). However, I do not classify someone who teaches what they believe to be true, though it is erroneous, to be "false teachers". And I certainly do not classify others who believe differently than I do as false teachers, though I believe their doctrine is in error. And I hope and trust that you're not so arrogant as to be implying that I'm a false teacher because I believe and teach something different than you do.

As to why the Certainty of Damnation for Others is so important to many people and it being a primary philosophy behind how they relate to others, well, that would make a good discussion. From experience I've found that many believers have always just assumed its truth, never have studied the topic for themselves, and are content not to and don't care if you believe differently. For some it is a foundational principle of how they relate to God and others, especially how they view others that do not believe as they do.

Concerning the word "Purgatory", you are correct in that it is not used in any English version of scripture; though as I pointed out in my OP, it is the closest English theological word to the Jewish understanding of Gehenna. But even Purgatory does not accurately convey the Jewish meaning of Gehenna for they believed Gehenna was not just for the Jews, but for the Gentiles also. The RCC understanding of Purgatory implies that such is only for those eventually going to heaven; whereas Hell is for those who have no hope of heaven.

Also, have you may have noticed that the word “Hell” seems to be increasingly disappearing from contemporary English translations. The concept of Hell was actually interpreted INTO scripture by St. Jerome who translated the Latin Vulgate. He errantly translated Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartaroo as "Infernum" 110 times which was subsequently translated as "Hell" 110 times in the 1610 Douay Rheims English translation. The KJV corrected 56 of these, and some modern versions correct them all and the word "Hell" is not in them at all.

The first Catholic English translation Douay Rheims (1610) had the word “Hell” in it 110 times. The 1611 King James Version only has it 54 times; NKJV (1982) – 32 times; CEV (1995) – 20 times; NLT & NCV – 17 times; NIV, ESV, Darby, & Catholic NJB – 14 times; NASB, AMP, ASV & TNIV – 13 times; HCSB – 12 times. And the Catholic NAB, Young’s Literal Translation, Rotherham’s translation, Fenton’s translation, and the WEB do not have the word “Hell” in them at all – 0 times!

But I've found that advocates of Hell often do not consider such facts as relevant. And you know, the RCC used the doctrine of Hell to keep people in line, and to even justify their persecution of anyone who believed differently than the accepted doctrine of the Church, including the Reformers. Thankfully attitudes have changed in the RCC and they are becoming more inclusive in their attitudes towards others who believe differently than they do.

Well, anyhow, I look forward to discussing scripture and various concepts with you.

Blessings upon you and yours,
Sherman

[Sherman]

Thanks for the intro, Sherman!

Not all of us are specifically missionaries (though some are--one of our mods is or was a longtime missionary to the Middle East, Iraq and Syria if I recall correctly), so it'll be interesting to hear some stories from the front line there. (Even if your mission field isn't literally the front line in other ways. )

Most of us here disagree with one another on various things--sometimes at length --but currently only three or four are disagreeable about their disagreements (so to speak). We won't ban anyone just for holding a belief, but the admins and mods (myself included) are rather on edge at the moment due to those people and attitudes.

As long as you don't demonize the motives of non-universalists, though, you should be okay. As A37 notes, typically they're just trying to protect from what they consider not only false doctrine but false doctrine with unspeakably hopeless and terrifying consequences if promoted. (I've met I think only one non-universalist personally who was gung-ho on the notion that we should be glad those damned non-elect are going to fry and not be wimpy about having pity on them. He was a Calvinist, as you might have guessed; also not someone who posts on this board. But most Calvs I've met don't go that far.)

The site owners would prefer for the forum to be a place for technical discussion, not for venting, or trying to score rhetorical points--whether to amuse yourself or in order to 'provoke' discussion or otherwise. We're usually pretty lenient even about that, but as noted we're a bit on edge right now.

Thanks Jason for your gracious reply. I don't usually vent, and will refrain from doing so in the future. I too enjoy more of a technical discussion, though I do enjoy wording things in a compelling way. As to "scoring rhetorical points", I do try to state things plainly and often employ metaphors to communicate my point. The goal is communication though, not "scoring points". I hope to make my posts clear and compelling.

Thanks for your welcome.
Blessings,
Sherman

[JasonPratt]

You're welcome, Sherman. No harm no foul yet. Just wanted to head off any potential problems at the pass.

Meanwhile, since I couldn't remember or find where I had posted a discussion on the topic, I went ahead and (possibly re-)posted a brief discussion of whether and to what extent "purgatory" is an "unbiblical" term, and where it comes from.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=907

(Not that deriving the word from a biblical use of a biblical term should be important to any believer in, say, THE TRINITY such as myself... )

[SLJ]

Hi Sherman,
I've enjoyed your posts so far and was wondering about you, so I appreciate the detailed intro.

As I've shared my change in beliefs with others, I've been suprised at the fear it has uncovered in others and the vehemenance with which I've been attacked.

I've had this experience, too. And it's not an uncommon experience for people beginning to believe in UR. One would think people would be excited about the very possibility, but instead the idea is met with unreasoning fear and violent rejection.

"Certainty of Damnation for Others" is a great label. A doctrine so important to many Christians should have a proper name. CDO for short, LOL.

Welcome!
Sonia

[Aaron37]

Sherman

you said: I do not classify someone who teaches what they believe to be true, though it is erroneous, to be "false teachers". And I certainly do not classify others who believe differently than I do as false teachers, though I believe their doctrine is in error.

Aaron: You might not, but God certainly does. There are no gray areas of doctrine with God..it is either true or false. God does not agree to disagree like we do on doctrine, Sherman. People might be sincere with their doctrine and teachings, but if they are not teaching truth..they are sincerly teaching false doctrine. Look forward to our discussions.

God bless,
Aaron

[RanRan]

There are no gray areas of doctrine with God..it is either true or false.

It's interesting (and like so many things about the Gospel, perfect) that the question of the day comes from not Christ and the apostles - but from Pilate...

'What is truth?'

Was it Peter's truth that we shouldn't hang around gentiles? And that was after Pentecost! Peter should have been perfect by then, like you.

Don't assume that your paradigm does not find it itself residing in some gray areas. "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." You better be praying that gets answered for EVERYONE'S sake.

[Sherman]

You're welcome, Sherman. No harm no foul yet. Just wanted to head off any potential problems at the pass.

Meanwhile, since I couldn't remember or find where I had posted a discussion on the topic, I went ahead and (possibly re-)posted a brief discussion of whether and to what extent "purgatory" is an "unbiblical" term, and where it comes from.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=907

(Not that deriving the word from a biblical use of a biblical term should be important to any believer in, say, THE TRINITY such as myself... )

Thanks Jason, that's a very good article. I hadn't taken time yet to study the etymology of the word Purgatory, though I do see its concept in scripture. Purification by fire is a repeated theme in scripture. One such passage is Isaiah's encounter with the Lord who took fire, a coal (brimstone?), from the altar and purified him! May we all seek to be purified by the fiery presence of God in our lives! I've encountered the judgment of God a couple of times; it's terrible, but produced tremendous good in me. Once, after having a revelation of just how Pharisaical I had become, I cried for two weeks. My family was concerned that I had lost my marbles. The revelation of just how hypocritical I had become was overwhelming, but it worked in me a tremendous brokeness, repentance and remorse, and a tremedous love for God and others. Those who love much have been forgiven much!

I look forward to getting to know you better bro.

Blessings,
Sherman

[Sherman]

Hi Sherman,
I've enjoyed your posts so far and was wondering about you, so I appreciate the detailed intro.

I've had this experience, too. And it's not an uncommon experience for people beginning to believe in UR. One would think people would be excited about the very possibility, but instead the idea is met with unreasoning fear and violent rejection.

"Certainty of Damnation for Others" is a great label. A doctrine so important to many Christians should have a proper name. CDO for short, LOL.

Welcome!
Sonia

Thanks Sonia,

I look forward to getting to know you better. And CDO does effectively communicate the reality that most people who believe in Hell, have faith for salvation for themselves, but have faith for the damnation of others who do not fit their accepted criteria. Part of the reason I've come to believe in UR is an increasing faith in the Atonement, that through the Atonement all of my (and your) sins are forgiven. This is the reality of heaven that we should seek to live under here on earth. Jesus has forgiven me of all my sins - past, present, and even future, sins I've repented of and sins that I'll not repent of until I stand in the full light of the unshaded presence of God. Until that day, and on that day my trust is in the Lord!

Blessings,
Sherman

[Sherman]

Sherman

you said: I do not classify someone who teaches what they believe to be true, though it is erroneous, to be "false teachers". And I certainly do not classify others who believe differently than I do as false teachers, though I believe their doctrine is in error.

Aaron: You might not, but God certainly does. There are no gray areas of doctrine with God..it is either true or false. God does not agree to disagree like we do on doctrine, Sherman. People might be sincere with their doctrine and teachings, but if they are not teaching truth..they are sincerly teaching false doctrine. Look forward to our discussions.

God bless,
Aaron

Note that in the scripture you alluded to what is said to be "false" is the teacher, not necessarily what he's teaching. "False" speaks of the teacher's character, not whether or not they are perfect in their understanding of anything. If one must be perfect in the understanding of scripture and perfect in their doctrine before being a teacher, then I submit that we'd all be "false teachers" for none of us are perfect in our understanding of scripture, God, or even ourselves! Furthermore, though a person teach correct doctrine, he/she can still be a "false teacher" if he is doing so hypocritically or with ill motives.

Concerning errant doctrine, yes there is errant "false" doctrine, and thus we study scripture so as to be able to rightly understand scripture. Not only this, but we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us truth. But of course, this assumes that we're teachable, willing to learn where we're currently wrong.

I look forward to discussing our differing understandings of scripture with you, Aaron. But I expect for such discussions to be done in a tone of mutual respect, and a common assumption of the other having good motives. If such is not possible, then I'll simply stop reading, much less replying, to your posts.

Blessings,
Sherman

[JasonPratt]

I look forward to getting to know you better bro.

You too! Don't forget to share some mission stories with us if you can!

[Sherman]

I look forward to getting to know you better bro.

You too! Don't forget to share some mission stories with us if you can!

Turns out that after getting my MA in Missiology, I only did one short-term trip to China to smuggle Bibles. After that, it seemed that the Lord blocked every effort to move to China, my heart's desire. This rocked on for several months until one day I took a full day alone to pray about it. Towards the end of the day I said, "Lord, I've been here all day and haven't heard anything from you, what's up!?" As I listened, I thought, "Maybe if I just be foolish and randomly open my Bible and point to a verse, God will show me something." So I opened my Bible, pointed to what I figured would be a verse, but my finger was actually pointing to a passage heading in Acts 16 which said, "The Holy Spirit Does Not Allow Paul To Go To Asia"! As I sat there dumb-founded I then heard my Father speak very clearly and sternly to me. "Do NOT go to Asia! And QUIT ASKING!!!!" I could feel Him pointing His finger at me. I felt like a teenager who's father was tired of saying no, No, NO! to his son.

That happened the summer of 1996 and since then I've not asked to go to China. Shoot, I've even stopped wanting to go. Instead, I've found myself working in a ministry that supports mission work around the world, including Asia and China, raising financial support to good news of the Love of Christ, as well as continuing my studies, serving in my local church, raising a family - just "being" a Christian. And my emphasis on the Great Commission has changed from "going into all the world" to "making disciples" through my every-day relationships, including my on-line relationships. I suppose that's why I was venting in the OP. Getting banned from that discussion forum really hurt because I had grown to care very much for the other members of the site, though we disagreed about much. It felt like, because it was, getting kicked out of a fellowship of believers with no warning, no discussion, no appeal, no "good-byes" and no explaination to other members.

On that short-term trip, some cool things did happen that I'll gladly share. Oh yea, I also serve on the board of another mission ministry, and support other missionaries who are on the field. Well, that's a little more about me. Is there a thread with more info on you?

Blessings,
Sherman

[JasonPratt]

That story was awesome and hilarious and, I think, also awesome!!

Really, thanks, that was great.

I think there's a post from me about me here in the Introduction subcategory of the Social Hall somewhere... It's been a while (since late 08). Most of us have one here; it's a good place to read up on various members.

(The links at the bottom of most of my posts aren't to biographical information, btw.)

[james.goetz]

Welcome, Sherman, and sorry for waiting so long to welcome you.

[Sherman]

I didn't want to start another thread on this, but wanted to only note a debate that I'm in on http://theologica.ning.com/profiles/blogs/universal-reconciliation that you might find interesting. But let's not overwhelm them with new UR members. I don't want anyone to think this is some kind of invasion or something. I was reminded by scripture to be GENTLE in sharing my faith in the hopes that some might be able to hear. Aggression usually turns off others who do not agree and only serves to widen the divide.

[amy]

Interesting to read that Sherman, especially other's comments since I'm familiar with your position, being it's so similar to my own. I don't know if you moved it somewhere else like someone suggested? Won't be able to find that. I'm so bad with this kind of stuff. I wouldn't even know how to join. Of course, this site keeps me plenty busy. Good to see somewhere else that things are going better for you. And I think I saw a few days ago that it was your birthday. ?? Happy belated birthday!

[Sherman]

Thanks for the happy birthday Amy. And yes, PTL, I really feel like there has been a spiritual turn around in a positive direction for me. Hallelujah! At the bottom of the blog was a list of links to threads at that site where I'm in discussion with them about different aspects of UR. Thus far it seems that most are at least not rejecting UR downright, but are considering it to some degree. And a couple seem really interested. One even raised a scripture that he noticed on his own that I had not noted already that supports UR. It's so cool when this happens. And he's apparently a pastor for he noticed it while preparing for a sermon from Rom. 11. You know the verse - 32.

I'm starting to use the theologica site to Blog on. http://theologica.ning.com/profile/ShermanNobles has a list of all my blogs and the discussions I participate in on that site. I'm being as Gentle as I can, not wanting to scare anyone off. I can't help but wax eloquent once and in awhile though.

Blessings,
Sherman

[JeffA]

Hi Sherman,

I've meant to ask for a long time now..

Do you mean God is a divorcee rather than a divorce as written in your sig?

[Sherman]

Hi Jeff, it's actually "God is a Divorce' Too", note the accent mark on the "e". I should change my sig.

[Sherman]

Well, I've finally bit the bullet and ordered TEU, The Jerome Conspiracy, and Talbott's Inescapable Love. I look forward to reading them.

[Alex Smith]

I'm sure you'll enjoy them! "All Shall Be Well" is a good read too

[Sobornost]

Hi Sherman -

About time I touched base with you - and good to read your story.

I remember you asking me a question about the Quakers when I first joined this site and didn't really understand the site very well (should have done some lurking first you know – I’d jumped in because I’d seen Drew asking a question which I knew part of the answer to and he didn’t seem to be getting anywhere with anyone else). There is a thread here about the Quakers on this site and I still might work on what I found out and add it to the thread because I guess people reading this site may be under the impression that Quakers are Universalist Christians and they'd be misinformed - some are, some aren't. Hope all is good with the Methodists.

I’ve pondered all of the stuff in your story about you being shut out of communities as a heretic - that must have been really tough; even in terms of the virtual communities. In my experience some groups derive their sense of loving wellbeing as a community from their exclusion of outsiders (and it sounds like you've sometimes been a scapegoat for all of those who had similar doubts about ECT etc in various groups). In my understanding their way is not the most excellent Way. I think of the table fellowship of Jesus that deliberately broke down barriers of exclusions and of the God who is generous like the Sun which rises on the just and the unjust - but I'm really sorry you have suffered exclusion in the past.

All the best

Dick

P.S. You have an English wife? If you are ever both in London I could meet you for coffee possibly - or show you round. The only restriction for me is that I am a carer and if I'm going through a demanding time a might not be able to come.

[Sherman]

Thanks for the greeting Dick. I appreciate you and your participation on this forum. I look forward to learning more about the Quakers. I'm still looking for a fellowship. I enjoyed the Methodist church, but my wife and children found it too traditional. We've been involved in Charismatic Evangelical churches with an emphasis on being transethnic and thus have come to really enjoy extended passionate worship, especially contemporary worship with a strong African American influence. So we don't seem to fit the little traditional wholly caucasian Methodist church that I visited. Though the pastor there is the most pastoral pastor I've none since I was a child.

We visited a new church plant, contemporary worship, Nazarene affiliation but I think it tends towards being transdenominational. We liked it but I haven't asked them yet concerning how exclusive they are. They church gives a simple statement of faith in Christ on their web site, but have a link to the denomination's site for further study. The Nazarene SoF affirms that the ultimately unrepentive will be consigned to Hell. The wording gives me a little wiggle room so that technically I could sign off on that statement because I believe that ultimately all will repent, every knee shall bow. Thus if the local fellowship accepted me, I could join in with them and participate, "IF" they accept me. And of course, I'll let the leadership know very soon of my faith in Jesus for the salvation of all humanity, the reconciliation of all creation. I find some local churches, though tied to a specific denomination, are much more open to the greater body of Christ and are not so exclusive. UR is a challenge for them, new to them, but I hope that many soon come to be open to UR believers.

Ultimately, I hope to start a fellowship that is Transdenominational & Transethnic, though it will have a strong UR presence and predominant message because, well, of me.

Well, anyhow, thanks for the greeting, and if my wife and I get over to London, I'd love to get together for coffee or maybe tea!

Blessings,
Sherman

[Sobornost]

Will do a post about the Quakers soon, and blessings. I have heard that there are some charismatic groups that are Universalist and influenced by Eastern Orthodox theology - hope you touch base with them, just to share stories.

Yes, I'm a great tea drinker. It's 'the cup that cheers but does not inebriate' and was the chosen drink of the Methodist Temperance movement in the UK.

All the best

Dick