The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is justification and why is it necessary?

Just a brief footnote here. I believe even the Roman Catholic church, has gotten away - from a system of works righteousness. And I don’t think it is found, in Eastern Orthodoxy or the varieties, of Protestant theology. :slight_smile:

Are ‘both sides’ using the code word ‘works’ in the same way, or are opponents attacking what they THINK the other person is saying?

‘Work’ is a loaded word. What do you mean by it?

Let’s try one example definition - from bit.ly/2DrwCiU

Is anyone here using the word in that way, I wonder? Or does each side use it in a different way?

I reccommend reading “Of Justification” ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.vii.viii.html and “Of Other Eternal and Immanent Acts of God, such as Adoption and Justification” ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.iii.v.html. This is crucial because if you couple this doctrine, justification from eternity, with the doctrine of universal atonement, you necessarily have a form of Universalism.

DaveB said:

And Bob said:

We may not agree on the where with all of each of our beliefs, but this is a great group of folks.

Peace. :laughing:

Chad :wink:

HFPZ, thanks for the article on the works. :slight_smile:

Dave, There is a difference between spiritual works and “the works of the law”/Jewish law, the works of the one true God vs. the works of pagan gods/man. From what I understand the Jewish law was not the work of God. By claiming to be doing the work of God, Jesus was basically considered heretic.
As Matthew 9:35-38 points out, “Jesus went through all the towns and villages teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. When He saw the crowds, He had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, " The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest field.”

God does not want us to be ignorant and led astray by every false god that comes down the pike. Our belief in the Spirit is not blind faith. We follow Jesus because our faith is justified ( proven or shown to be right) by works. As Jesus said " If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe Me, but if I do them though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know that the Father is in me and I in Him."

The sacrificing of animals and other ritual practices were the “dead works” of pagan gods, while the spiritual works of Jesus were bringing people alive. 'He that believes in Me, the works that I do, he shall also do." This is the Law of reciprocity, the Golden rule, and reaping what we sow in a positive way.

When one is persecuted and put to death for simply teaching and doing the work of God, something is terribly wrong. This is why Israel fell and their works were “burned up in the fire.”

Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine. Not to earn salvation, but to give evidence that faith is real and is in the God who raised Jesus.

You might want to think about that.

Bro, I would take an alternate view to that. That is pure and unadulterated works righteousness. When you look at a person and say that there is no evidence that that person is a person of faith, you are treading to ‘Luther’s’ salvation by faith. In other words like you say, you have to DO something to get something. Luther said “you have to have faith” You said “Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine”… so who in hell is going to make that assessment?

Just asking :laughing:

Yepper :wink:

Chad my brother :smiley: there is NOTHING ‘work-righteousness’ about that. Nothing. I did not say that you become righteous by those acts.

Your FAITH is proven to be genuine by continuing in well-doing and seeking glory and honor and immortality. Not perfectly, no; but there must be some substance to our confession.

Is that just not common sense? How ELSE can one’s faith be genuine? Because one feels like it is?

I’m gonna sit firm on this, because the accusation of ‘works’ just is not to the point.

But remember - I build guitars! I have some redeeming value! :smiley:

That is where we differ and where the historical context of faith becomes interesting. From my perspective, In Jesus’ time and the time of the apostles right after him Faith in Jesus was very important. You know I believe and I think you know the preterist view. The verbiage of all of the NT scriptures was that of a soon coming Christ, a end of the old covenant and a new dawn to the new covenant. So going back, There is no need for proving faith because righteousness was a given through the new covenant.

So, the difference is interesting. How do we Judge or do we judge another’s faith? And ultimately if we do judge them on what grounds is the judgment based?

I know for a fact you are not a creed guy!! :laughing:

God wants people to be righteous. You are right that an unbeliever sometimes does good works, but he is unable to live a consistently righteous life without the enabling grace of God (made available by the sacrifice of Christ) to assist him (Titus 2). The Christian can appropriate this enabling grace through faith.

Yes, this is true. But can a person have the grace of God? Whether they actively know Christ or not? I say they can. I spent many years with this saint and authors, from the book at amzn.to/2DrPzkK. And with this Native American author at amzn.to/2rle0eE. They acted every bit as Christian - IF NOT MORE SO - then most Christians I know. And I became friends with them, years before they ever penned a book.

Just a couple of footnotes - on the Eastern saint - for you skeptics:

The book cover says at 100 plus, he can outrun (and outlast, mind you) - young folks. Well, I was in my twenties, when I hung out with him. And there were some other twenty-year-old men - who ran with him. We were exhausted, after a few minutes. And he didn’t even break a sweat!
And I and a close nurse’s aid friend, once measured his blood pressure. He had one blood pressure reading. And asked for another one, a few seconds later. Well, it changed in a matter of seconds - well over 40 units, on the blood pressure scale. He was controlling his blood pressure - of course.

I refer folks to the EO article on Inclusivist. Which is now an official part, of RC theology. And to the Calvinist theologian’s talk - at the Theosophical Society at youtu.be/5O81xzLnKGc

Let me share today’s reflection from cac.org/. It should be noted, I’m in harmony with the Franciscan and EO views - on this matter:

HFPZ, Yes, I say they can as well, and thanks again for the at-one-ment article. I found it very informative.

qaz, No. It’s not impossible.

MM, The way I see it you can either:

  1. Believe what someone else tells you and simply follow them, no questions asked.
  2. Use your own heart and mind- ask questions, observe the world around you, seek and come to your own conclusions.

Do we have any other choices?

Oh come on, we all know that God is the One we ‘report’ to.

7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Or just as clearly:

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Uh…kinda clear?
NO? - how about:

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

I cannot think that we START with preterism and THEN make these scriptures fit somehow - that seems bass-ackwards to me. If someone can explain these away by hiding behind a certain theory of ‘righteousness’ yadayadayad - well ok - but to answer the quoted question above - God is the judge of whether your faith and mine has been real, or a mixture, or an idol of our own making.

I’m trying to work my salvation out but I am deeply concerned about my tendency to see what I want to see. That’s why I’m going very slowly through Romans and trying to see what Paul sees.

Well, I came across another definition of justification today. It came from my weekly Patheos evangelical newsletter. I also receive the Catholic one - by the way. Let me share the story - that caught my eye:

Kenneth Copeland Loves His New $36 Million Jet

Let me quote a bit - from the article. So we can see the “justification” part:

Well, if you can believe demons fly on airplanes…then you can buy into, my version of the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse.

Imagine having to pray for people - on a plane? Who would think that “a man of God” or’ minister of the gospel" - should be doing that? :open_mouth:

Of course it’s not impossible. Some non-believers have even sacrificed their lives in order to save the lives of others.

What is impossible for a person who has never experienced the enabling grace of God in his life, is for him to live a consistently righteous life. He who has submitted to Christ and appropriated God’s enabling grace CAN live a consistently righteous life. Of course, in living such a life he may slip up on the rare occasion. But he can confess that failure to God and trust again in His Son and pray for that enabling grace.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

Well, bro if we take your view that all of scripture is for all of us for all time, Paul clearly states all are sinners, and without Christ none are worthy. Which leads to the uncomfortable question of

You went on to say that

I would opinion the above quote having to do with what was going on in that time: IOW dealing with the jewish law keeping covenant:
We could ask, how much patience do we need? And obey what truth? You have in the past been a bit of a creed denouncer (and I agree)

If we look at it in your context, what is the line between seeking glory and doing good? Being self seeking and obeying truth? What is the evil that God would unleash wrath and fury and yet the very son he sent says to forgive and do not judge and go the extra mile. I would maintain that these things you point out are larger things than personal moral character here in 2018. This is talking about something earth/cosmos changing.

Your views might be valid but like I said, ‘who the hell is going to make the call?’

The preterist view does answer a bunch of questions. As does viewing the bible as a historical set of documents.

enough said.