That repeats what the verse - Mt.24:36 - says. I asked where in the OT this is taught. Otherwise it’s a new teaching. Whereas your claim is “Jesus did not teach us anything new.”
Verse 27 of Colossians 1 refers to what v.26 speaks about.
That repeats what the verse - Mt.24:36 - says. I asked where in the OT this is taught. Otherwise it’s a new teaching. Whereas your claim is “Jesus did not teach us anything new.”
Verse 27 of Colossians 1 refers to what v.26 speaks about.
Right you are, Origen. Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.
In Matthew 5, Jesus clearly taught something “new.” Here is the passage in the New American Standard Bible:
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Clearly, Jesus is not talking about not abolishing the COMMANDMENTS of the Mosaic law. He said in vs 17 above, that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In what sense did He fulfill them? Did He keep the Mosaic law? He didn’t even keep the Sabbath command! The apostle John declares in his gospel that Jesus broke the sabbath:
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18 AV)
So, if Jesus didn’t keep the Mosaic law or even the fourth of the ten commandments, then in what sense did He fulfill the law and the prophets? He fulfilled the PREDICTIONS of the law and the prophets. Clearly Isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning the Anointed One. Jesus also said that Moses wrote about Him:
Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” (Luke 24:44 NASB)
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Is Jesus speaking about keeping and teaching the Mosaic law? No, He is speaking about keeping and teaching the basic Law of God upon which the Mosaic law IN PART is based, but which greatly differs from the Mosaic law. Jesus then goes on to give the particulars of these differences:
21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Jesus is not satisfied with the command to refrain from murder. He goes well beyond it. You must not even insult your brother.
27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’;
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Again He goes beyond the command to refrain from adultery. Even desiring some man’s wife (The Greek word for “woman” and “wife” is the same) is to commit adultery in your heart and mind.
31 "It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’;
32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
So Jesus’ words are contrary to those of the Mosaic law which permitted divorce and remarriage. Isn’t that a “new teaching”?
33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’
34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 "But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.
Jesus’ teaching is not only to refrain from making false oaths, but not to make any oaths at all! NEW TEACHING.
38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
Formerly revenge was the order of the day. But Jesus teaches the opposite—Non-resistance. And if a person force you to give him your possessions, let him have them. If forces you in other ways, do twice as much as he asks. Notice that Jesus doesn’t say that revenge is God’s command, or even Moses’ but simply says, "“You have heard that it was said…”
43 "You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
I’m not sure where this command has its source. It’s not part of the Mosaic law, but perhaps it came into Jewish law much later. Jesus says that a person who, in a practical way, loves those who hates him, shows himself to be a true child of God. For God doesn’t hate those who hate Him, but gives sunshine and rain to everyone! Hmmmmm… Not the way God is depicted by Moses is it? Moses says that He gave commands to kill His enemies!
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?
Jesus also said that if our eye or hand causes us to sin then cut it off or out but we know he was using hyperbole so i think Jesus said something like strive for perfection rather then literally be perfect like God.
I can see the hyperbole in “cutting off your hand” or “plucking out your eye” if they cause you to stumble.
But I don’t see becoming perfect as hyperbole. James seemed to think that perfection was possible:
For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
(James 3:2 ESV )
The apostle Paul admitted that he was not perfect, and yet by making the effort, he expected to reach perfection:
…that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way… (Philippians 3:10-15 ESV)
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”
Even Jesus, though sinless throughout His life, wasn’t always perfect. He had to LEARN obedience, and that together with His suffering made Him perfect:
Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. (Hebrews 5:8-9)
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”
Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand i’ve heard that perfect actually means “mature.”
“quoting Paidion” And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”
Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand i’ve heard that perfect actually means “mature.”
Boy. The Calvinist site Got Questions, has some interesting things to say.
What does the Bible say about perfectionism?
Let me quote a bit - from their answer:
To put it bluntly, perfectionism is a hoax.
Oh, my God. They do put things concisely.
Let’s see what they think - the Biblical word means:
It is true that the Bible calls us to be “perfect as [our] heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). The Greek word for “perfect” here is telios. It means “brought to its end, completed, or perfect.” So, to be “perfect” in this sense is not how perfectionists so often imagine it. Rather, it is to be completed in Christ. Philippians 1:6 says that completion is the work of God. He created us, saved us, and is faithful to perfect us.
It looks like they agree with Paidion - I think.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/e50d9e9e2ef2f05365437a4675d8e7d6/tenor.gif
Jesus also said that if our eye or hand causes us to sin then cut it off or out but we know he was using hyperbole so i think Jesus said something like strive for perfection rather then literally be perfect like God.
I take it that things like omniscience, omnipresence & omnipotence are excluded from the definition of “perfect” as Jesus meant it in Mt.5:48.
The Greek word τέλειος (Strongs # 5049) has been translated in other ways:
“having reached its end, finished, mature, complete, perfect;”
studylight.org/lexicons/greek/5046.html
“In the LXX…the word means “unblemished”, “undivided”, “complete”, “whole”…” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.72).
It is used in the following verses:
You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. (Dt.18:13)
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. (Gn.6:9)
Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (Ex.12:5)
“In Greek thought and usage τέλειος often means “totality”…This justifies the rendering of corresponding Hebrew terms by τέλειος, primarily in Mt…The context in each case supplies the reference. In Mt.5:48 the “whole” applies to conduct in relation to men. God is fully “undivided” in this…As God is unrestricted in His goodness, so according to v.48 the disciples of Jesus should be “total” in their love, bringing even their enemies…within its compass” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.73-4).
Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets.
Yes, He did.
Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.
As John says, “the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (Jn.1:17).
And “God is love”.
Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand i’ve heard that perfect actually means “mature.”
Correct Steve… the intended end was always maturity…
Eph 4:13, 15 …till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. …but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ.
Perfection = Maturity <ἄνδρα τέλειον> andra = ‘a person of full age and stature’ teleion = ‘fully realised’.
Right you are, Origen. Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.
Paidion, Deut. 10:17-19 “The Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. He executes justice for the orphan and the widow and shows His loving kindness for the stranger by giving him food and clothing.”
1Chron.16:34 Give thanks to the Lord for He is good; His love endures forever."
Psalm 103:2-5 “Bless the Lord, O my soul and forget none of His benefits. He pardons all your sins. He heals all your diseases. He redeems your life from the pit. He crowns you with loving kindness, He satisfies your years with good things.”
Lamentations 3:22-23 “The Lord’s loving kindness certainly never ceases because His compassions never fail. His love, kindness, and compassion are new every morning. Great is your loyal trustworthiness, O Lord.”
There are hundreds of verses in the OT like the above that tell us who God is. Read Psalms, Proverbs, all the Prophets, and they will also tell you who God is because they KNEW Him.
Jesus is not satisfied with the command to refrain from murder. He goes well beyond it. You must not even insult your brother.
Lev. 19:16 “You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor.”
Lev.19:17-18 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people.”
Psalm 15:3 “He does not slander with his tongue, nor does evil to his neighbor, nor take a reproach against his friend.”
Psalm 37:8-9 “Refrain from anger and turn from wrath. Do not fret, it leads only to evil.”
Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
Proverbs 10:12 “Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers all wrongs.”
Again He goes beyond the command to refrain from adultery. Even desiring some man’s wife (The Greek word for “woman” and “wife” is the same) is to commit adultery in your heart and mind.
Proverbs 6:25 “Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes.”
So Jesus’ words are contrary to those of the Mosaic law which permitted divorce and remarriage. Isn’t that a “new teaching”?
Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.”
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce says the lord God of Israel.
"
Formerly revenge was the order of the day.
Exodus 21:23-26 “But if lasting harm follows then you shall GIVE (not take) life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth…And if a man strikes the eye of his servant or the eye of his maidservant and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye…”
Proverbs 20:22 “Do not say I will repay evil. Wait for the lord and He will save you.”
“If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything.”-- Mark Twain
Perhaps there is a type of perfection - attainable to some. Which you might find, in the stories of saints and holy people. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions…or the traditions of other religions.
Now I have seen good times…and I have seen bad times…Perhaps much more bad times.
But I have also:
Hung around with Father A…the Roman Catholic priest, who “allegedly” has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God. And a strong inner voice, keeps telling me…he will be declared a saint - after his death.
Spent many years, with the medicine men and women…of the Two Feathers Medicine clan. And saw many things, I can’t explain away. (see Family Reunion)
Hung around the Bruno Gröning circle of friends…A German healer who healed crowds of hundreds…And his healings still occur - after his death.
Hung around with an Eastern saint - now deceased. That is written up in the book, This House Is On Fire (available on Amazon).
Etc.
See,for example (NOT related to Father A) Detroit priest is now one step from sainthood
Now maybe…Just maybe:
I am telling nice stories, for the purposes of entertainment.
I experienced what I saw. But perhaps I suffered from abnormal psychosis. Or I hypothetically - partook too much, of that Native American peyote or ayahuasca. Which I can neither affirm nor deny - mind you.
Or all (or most), of what I experienced was real.
Well, perhaps some have obtained - a type of perfection. Whether they know Christ, in the traditional way - or not. Or maybe they are like the superheros, of the movies Thor: Ragnarok and the Justice League - “myths and legends”. Like presenters at the International, Flat Earth conference - are trying to promote.
You decide
Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner?
Probably not. But in my understanding this is not an example of hyperbole. Paul FELT that he was the chief of sinners because prior to his miraculous conversion, he had been actively putting Christians to death.
So, if Jesus didn’t keep the Mosaic law or even the fourth of the ten commandments, then in what sense did He fulfill the law and the prophets? He fulfilled the PREDICTIONS of the law and the prophets. Clearly Isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning the Anointed One. Jesus also said that Moses wrote about Him:
Paidion, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill the predictions of the Law and the prophets, He followed the same Law of God that Moses and the prophets followed and proclaimed to be the true word of God. They WERE the Christs( the anointed of God) who continued to pass on the wisdom of God as told to them by their ancestors and which they themselves saw the truth thereof. I believe that if the original book of the Law of Moses were to be found, it would say the same things that Jesus said.
I want to share a message - from today - from the Roman Catholic site Contemplation. Whether things were entirely fulfilled in 70 AD - or NOT… Or ALL the “unusual” theologies presented here - are true or NOT…we need to live in the eternal now. Here’s today’s message, from Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr:
Living in the Now
Time-Tested Wisdom
Sunday, November 19, 2017
Embrace the present moment as an ever-flowing source of holiness. —Jean Pierre de Caussade [1]
Life will give you whatever experience is most helpful for the evolution of your consciousness. How do you know this is the experience you need? Because this is the experience you are having at the moment. —Eckhart Tolle [2]
Of all the things I have learned and taught over the years, I can think of nothing that could be of more help to you than living in the now. It is truly time-tested wisdom.
So many leaders in so many traditions have taught the same thing: Hindu masters, Zen and Tibetan Buddhists, Sufi poets, Jewish rabbis, and Christian mystics to name a few. In the Christian tradition, we have heard it from Augustine, the Franciscan Francisco de Osuna, the Carmelite Brother Lawrence, and more recently, Paul Tillich and Alan Watts. Contemporary teachers Thich Nhat Hanh and Ekhart Tolle have done much to help us understand the importance of living in the now.
Jesuit priest Jean Pierre de Caussade (1675-1751) called it the “sacrament of the present moment.” His book, Abandonment to Divine Providence, was the book most recommended by spiritual directors for many decades. His key theme is: “If we have abandoned ourselves to God, there is only one rule for us: the duty of the present moment.” To live in the present is finally what we mean by presence itself!
God is hidden in plain sight, yet religion seems determined to make it more complicated. Much of low-level religion suggests that to find God you need this morality and that behavior and this ritual and that performance and this belief system. Western Christianity has largely refused to allow God to be as simple, obvious, democratic, and available as God has made (and makes!) God’s self—right here and right now.
This is what Eckhart Tolle popularized in his bestselling book, The Power of Now. While it’s often found in the New Age section of most bookstores, Tolle’s message falls squarely in line with orthodox Christianity. And, as I said, it’s also in numerous other traditions. If it’s true, it’s true everywhere!
Gateway to Silence:
God is right here right now.
References:[1] Jean Pierre de Caussade, Abandonment to Divine Providence, trans. John Beevers (Image Books: 1975), 36.
[2] Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life’s Purpose (Penguin Books: 2005, 2016), 41.
Adapted from Richard Rohr, Living the Eternal Now (Center for Action and Contemplation: 2005), CD, MP3 download.
I don’t think that shortly after 70 AD, they could:
Live in the eternal now and
Watch TV evangelist - Joel Osteen - on TV.
Let’s live in the now, with some timely humor from Sunil Bali at sunilbali.com/2017/11/over-read-and-under-done/:
No man goes before his time. Unless the boss leaves early.
Today I saw a documentary about beavers. Best dam show I ever watched.
Last week a Japanese rail company issued a statement apologising for a train leaving 20 seconds early.
In England, trains regularly run more than 20 mins late accompanied by an automated, insincere, tannoy message apologising for “any inconvenience caused”.
Its revealing that the anagram of England’s “National Rail Timetables” is “all trains aim to be late in”.
Does Pantelism view this passage of Scripture as being fulfilled already:
Rom.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ’s allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Has creation already been “freed from the slavery of corruption”?
Does Pantelism view this passage of Scripture as being fulfilled already:
Rom.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ’s allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Has creation already been “freed from the slavery of corruption”?
Short answer… YES. More detailed answer as follows…
The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation… this passage is all about “the creature” Israel, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrection…
Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (exponential tribulations AD30-70) are not worthy to be compared with the glory (glorified 8:30, Jn 17:22) which shall be revealed in us (firstfruit saints). For the earnest expectation of the creature (historic Israel) waiteth for the manifestation (election 11:5) of the sons of God (firstfruit saints). For the creature (historic Israel) was made subject to vanity (the Law), not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope (covenant renewal), because the creature (historic Israel) itself also shall be delivered (redeemed 11:26) from the bondage of corruption (the law) into the glorious liberty (the grace Jn 1:16-17) of the children of God (firstfruit saints). For we know that the whole creation (all Israel) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they (historic Israel), but ourselves (firstfruit saints) also, which have the firstfruits (down payment) of the (eschatological) Spirit, even we ourselves (firstfruit saints) groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (deliverance) of our body (Gk. ‘singular’ — release from the old covenant ‘body’ of ‘the Death’ as per 7:24).
Come now, Origen. I’m NOT a Preterist (either partial or full). But I have respect, for those on this forum - who hold this view.
I mean. If folks allow me, to promote the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Then I can allow them, to hold various preterist positions. Or even MORE outlandish views - like no free will universalism or ultra-universalism.
And as a member of the Theosophical Society (mainly for their library resources)…There’s nothing folks say here…that’s more stranger than…the guest lecturers, they sometimes invite…
Or you being a fan of Benny Hinn. Who is my book, is in the same category…as Peter Popoff, and his miracle spring water and supernatural money miracles.