The Evangelical Universalist Forum

70 AD- calling you Davo

No, God doesn’t make mistakes. But Moses was not God. He made mistakes.

You quoted the account of Ananias and Sapphira. Why? Are you suggesting that God killed them? If so, that is but your idea. There is nothing in the account that indicates that God killed them. I think they died from fear.

Actually, the Calvinist site Got Questions, has a take on the story:

Why did God kill Ananias and Sapphira for lying?

It says this - in part:

But there’s also an Old Testament story, where God used a lying spirit. Which Got Questions also talks about:

Why did God use a lying spirit to deceive Ahab?

Origen, As far as Matt. 24:36 goes Jesus did not reveal the day or hour, because He didn’t know. He said that only the Father knows.
As for Col. 1:26, name one thing that Jesus or the saints taught that was not already stated in the Old Testament.

Paidion, Moses had the full knowledge of God which he gave to the Israelites. As it says in 1 Cor. 10:1-4 Moreover brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ(meaning those who had the knowledge and wisdom of God). I don’t think that all the things the Bible says came from Moses were actually from Moses.

That repeats what the verse - Mt.24:36 - says. I asked where in the OT this is taught. Otherwise it’s a new teaching. Whereas your claim is “Jesus did not teach us anything new.”

Verse 27 of Colossians 1 refers to what v.26 speaks about.

Right you are, Origen. Indeed, Jesus taught MANY truths that were never mentioned by Moses or the OT prophets. Indeed, Jesus revealed the Father as He really is, and as He was UNKNOWN by Moses and the OT prophets.

In Matthew 5, Jesus clearly taught something “new.” Here is the passage in the New American Standard Bible:

Clearly, Jesus is not talking about not abolishing the COMMANDMENTS of the Mosaic law. He said in vs 17 above, that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In what sense did He fulfill them? Did He keep the Mosaic law? He didn’t even keep the Sabbath command! The apostle John declares in his gospel that Jesus broke the sabbath:

So, if Jesus didn’t keep the Mosaic law or even the fourth of the ten commandments, then in what sense did He fulfill the law and the prophets? He fulfilled the PREDICTIONS of the law and the prophets. Clearly Isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning the Anointed One. Jesus also said that Moses wrote about Him:

Is Jesus speaking about keeping and teaching the Mosaic law? No, He is speaking about keeping and teaching the basic Law of God upon which the Mosaic law IN PART is based, but which greatly differs from the Mosaic law. Jesus then goes on to give the particulars of these differences:

Jesus is not satisfied with the command to refrain from murder. He goes well beyond it. You must not even insult your brother.

Again He goes beyond the command to refrain from adultery. Even desiring some man’s wife (The Greek word for “woman” and “wife” is the same) is to commit adultery in your heart and mind.

So Jesus’ words are contrary to those of the Mosaic law which permitted divorce and remarriage. Isn’t that a “new teaching”?

Jesus’ teaching is not only to refrain from making false oaths, but not to make any oaths at all! NEW TEACHING.

Formerly revenge was the order of the day. But Jesus teaches the opposite—Non-resistance. And if a person force you to give him your possessions, let him have them. If forces you in other ways, do twice as much as he asks. Notice that Jesus doesn’t say that revenge is God’s command, or even Moses’ but simply says, "“You have heard that it was said…”

I’m not sure where this command has its source. It’s not part of the Mosaic law, but perhaps it came into Jewish law much later. Jesus says that a person who, in a practical way, loves those who hates him, shows himself to be a true child of God. For God doesn’t hate those who hate Him, but gives sunshine and rain to everyone! Hmmmmm… Not the way God is depicted by Moses is it? Moses says that He gave commands to kill His enemies!

WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

WOW! We constantly hear people saying that nobody’s perfect and nobody CAN be perfect. Who are we going to believe? These people or Jesus?
Jesus wouldn’t ask us to be perfect like God if it were impossible, would He?

Jesus also said that if our eye or hand causes us to sin then cut it off or out but we know he was using hyperbole so i think Jesus said something like strive for perfection rather then literally be perfect like God.

I can see the hyperbole in “cutting off your hand” or “plucking out your eye” if they cause you to stumble.

But I don’t see becoming perfect as hyperbole. James seemed to think that perfection was possible:

The apostle Paul admitted that he was not perfect, and yet by making the effort, he expected to reach perfection:

“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”

Even Jesus, though sinless throughout His life, wasn’t always perfect. He had to LEARN obedience, and that together with His suffering made Him perfect:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)

“Completed” — that’s what “perfect” means. It does not mean “flawless.”

Paul also said he was the chief sinner. Was he the chief sinner? Not likely but on the other hand i’ve heard that perfect actually means “mature.”

Boy. The Calvinist site Got Questions, has some interesting things to say.

What does the Bible say about perfectionism?

Let me quote a bit - from their answer:

Oh, my God. They do put things concisely. :laughing:

Let’s see what they think - the Biblical word means:

It looks like they agree with Paidion - I think. :slight_smile:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e50d9e9e2ef2f05365437a4675d8e7d6/tenor.gif

I take it that things like omniscience, omnipresence & omnipotence are excluded from the definition of “perfect” as Jesus meant it in Mt.5:48.

The Greek word τέλειος (Strongs # 5049) has been translated in other ways:

“having reached its end, finished, mature, complete, perfect;”

studylight.org/lexicons/greek/5046.html

“In the LXX…the word means “unblemished”, “undivided”, “complete”, “whole”…” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.72).

It is used in the following verses:

You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. (Dt.18:13)

These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. (Gn.6:9)

Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats. (Ex.12:5)

“In Greek thought and usage τέλειος often means “totality”…This justifies the rendering of corresponding Hebrew terms by τέλειος, primarily in Mt…The context in each case supplies the reference. In Mt.5:48 the “whole” applies to conduct in relation to men. God is fully “undivided” in this…As God is unrestricted in His goodness, so according to v.48 the disciples of Jesus should be “total” in their love, bringing even their enemies…within its compass” (TDNT, Vol.8, p.73-4).

Yes, He did.

As John says, “the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (Jn.1:17).

And “God is love”.

Correct Steve… the intended end was always maturity

Perfection = Maturity <ἄνδρα τέλειον> andra = ‘a person of full age and stature’ teleion = ‘fully realised’.

Paidion, Deut. 10:17-19 “The Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. He executes justice for the orphan and the widow and shows His loving kindness for the stranger by giving him food and clothing.”
1Chron.16:34 Give thanks to the Lord for He is good; His love endures forever."
Psalm 103:2-5 “Bless the Lord, O my soul and forget none of His benefits. He pardons all your sins. He heals all your diseases. He redeems your life from the pit. He crowns you with loving kindness, He satisfies your years with good things.”
Lamentations 3:22-23 “The Lord’s loving kindness certainly never ceases because His compassions never fail. His love, kindness, and compassion are new every morning. Great is your loyal trustworthiness, O Lord.”

There are hundreds of verses in the OT like the above that tell us who God is. Read Psalms, Proverbs, all the Prophets, and they will also tell you who God is because they KNEW Him.

Lev. 19:16 “You shall not go about as a slanderer among your people, and you are not to act against the life of your neighbor.”
Lev.19:17-18 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall not take vengeance nor bear any grudge against the children of your people.”
Psalm 15:3 “He does not slander with his tongue, nor does evil to his neighbor, nor take a reproach against his friend.”
Psalm 37:8-9 “Refrain from anger and turn from wrath. Do not fret, it leads only to evil.”
Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
Proverbs 10:12 “Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers all wrongs.”

Proverbs 6:25 “Do not lust in your heart after her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes.”

Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.”
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce says the lord God of Israel.
"

Exodus 21:23-26 “But if lasting harm follows then you shall GIVE (not take) life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth…And if a man strikes the eye of his servant or the eye of his maidservant and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye…”
Proverbs 20:22 “Do not say I will repay evil. Wait for the lord and He will save you.”

Perhaps there is a type of perfection - attainable to some. Which you might find, in the stories of saints and holy people. In the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions…or the traditions of other religions.

Now I have seen good times…and I have seen bad times…Perhaps much more bad times.

But I have also:

Hung around with Father A…the Roman Catholic priest, who “allegedly” has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God. And a strong inner voice, keeps telling me…he will be declared a saint - after his death.
Spent many years, with the medicine men and women…of the Two Feathers Medicine clan. And saw many things, I can’t explain away. (see Family Reunion)
Hung around the Bruno Gröning circle of friends…A German healer who healed crowds of hundreds…And his healings still occur - after his death.
Hung around with an Eastern saint - now deceased. That is written up in the book, This House Is On Fire (available on Amazon).
Etc.

See,for example (NOT related to Father A) Detroit priest is now one step from sainthood

Now maybe…Just maybe:

I am telling nice stories, for the purposes of entertainment.
I experienced what I saw. But perhaps I suffered from abnormal psychosis. Or I hypothetically - partook too much, of that Native American peyote or ayahuasca. Which I can neither affirm nor deny - mind you.
Or all (or most), of what I experienced was real.

Well, perhaps some have obtained - a type of perfection. Whether they know Christ, in the traditional way - or not. Or maybe they are like the superheros, of the movies Thor: Ragnarok and the Justice League - “myths and legends”. Like presenters at the International, Flat Earth conference - are trying to promote.

You decide :exclamation: :smiley:

Probably not. But in my understanding this is not an example of hyperbole. Paul FELT that he was the chief of sinners because prior to his miraculous conversion, he had been actively putting Christians to death.

Paidion, From what I understand, Jesus did not fulfill the predictions of the Law and the prophets, He followed the same Law of God that Moses and the prophets followed and proclaimed to be the true word of God. They WERE the Christs( the anointed of God) who continued to pass on the wisdom of God as told to them by their ancestors and which they themselves saw the truth thereof. I believe that if the original book of the Law of Moses were to be found, it would say the same things that Jesus said.

I want to share a message - from today - from the Roman Catholic site Contemplation. Whether things were entirely fulfilled in 70 AD - or NOT… Or ALL the “unusual” theologies presented here - are true or NOT…we need to live in the eternal now. Here’s today’s message, from Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr:

I don’t think that shortly after 70 AD, they could:

Live in the eternal now and
Watch TV evangelist - Joel Osteen - on TV.

Let’s live in the now, with some timely humor from Sunil Bali at sunilbali.com/2017/11/over-read-and-under-done/:

I approve of this message… :laughing:

Does Pantelism view this passage of Scripture as being fulfilled already:

Rom.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ’s allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also." 18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. 19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. 20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" 21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." 22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

Has creation already been “freed from the slavery of corruption”?