The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Whose Faith?

Re: that Enns footnote for those who do not have access, here is a portion of it
Here Enns is pointing out that the ‘faith OF Jesus Christ’ can best be understood as ‘faithfulness of Jesus Christ’. I’m totally into that, it makes sense, at least to me, that fits in various contexts. The 'faith of God (the Father) is thus best understood as HIs faithfulness. YMMV.


Which raises the question, Dave. If he is not God, when what EXACTLY is he :question:

Wrong thread for this, methinks, Randy mon ami.
But a hint:

MacDonald: “What Jesus did, is what the Father is always doing; the suffering he endured was that of the Father from the foundation of the world, reaching its climax in the person of his Son. God provides the sacrifice; the sacrifice is Himself. He is always, and always has been sacrificing Himself to and for his creatures. It lies in the very essence of his creation of them. The worst heresy - next to that of dividing religion and righteousness - is to divide the Father from the Son - in thought or feeling or action or intent; as representing the Son as doing that which the Father himself does not do” (“Life” - US 2).

No problem. You made the statement in this thread, Dave. I’m just asking a question - regarding your statement. :laughing:

No problem.

Dave, I’m not clear as to precisely what assumption you reject. How do you understand “the Evangelical assumption that Jesus=God.”

I’m not so sure, Dave. Yes, faith is something that we have toward God, but we can’t conclude that faith is not something that God could have or exercise.

If faith (pistis) has to do with assurance/persuasion/confidence/trust, then did not God demonstrate faith when He said, “Let there be light”?

-Jesus (God the Son), the author and finisher of faith—is the source of our faith; so faith comes from him: it is something he has to dispense.

-Jesus (God the Son) lived as a human who demonstrated faith—again, showing that *God does have faith.
*
Jesus says,

Here, it would seem Jesus is talking about releasing faith, not to God as the object—but (I would suggest) from God as a gift, through us, to an object (in his example, a tree)—comparable to when God said, *“Let there be light.” * After all, we are made in His image.

So I suppose I’m arguing that whereas God is always the source of faith, He is not always (overtly) the object of faith.

Blessings.

If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.” Luke 17:6.

Here, it would seem Jesus is talking about releasing faith, not to God as the object—but (I would suggest) from God as a gift, through us, to an object (in his example, a tree)—comparable to when God said, “Let there be light.” After all, we are made in His image.

Maybe it’s analogous to Jesus statement about casting the mountain into the sea which may have actually been a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. If true then it’s not a comment about our faith but more like “You better believe Jerusalem will be cast into the sea.”

Also Gal 2.20 in context simply sounds like God is faithful even though the Israelites were not.

What would God need to ‘believe’ in, though? In any case, when Scripture is not very clear on something, I try not to be too dogmatic.
The scripture does speak voluminously about God’s Faithfulness. I feel on very safe ground with that.

I know now that I am interacting with people (maybe not you Hermano) that have been involved in the Word of Faith and related movements. I myself have not, so there is not a common ground. What these fine folks are talking about is described using a patois they are used to. On the outside, I find it difficult to understand.

But what is CLEAR in scripture, I"m all for. Got my hands and head full with ‘just’ that :laughing:

It’s not just the evangelicals who believe in the paradoxical mystery of the Trinity, it’s also the Anglican, Orthodox, and Catholic.

God = Jesus

God = Father

God = Holy Spirit

Jesus gave us the example as He trusted and relied upon the Father. God has faith in God therefore I have faith in God. That is, I believe God to keep His promises. I rest in Him as I surrender in trust of His Divine providence. He holds my future in His hands. For He promises to work everything together for good for those that love Him. And I love Him. I love Him because He first loved me in His suffering death and resurrection. I have hope. The past is blotted out and my future is secure. I’m free to live in the present moment. And in the present moment are treasures eternal. I have surrendered under His rulership. He is my Lord and in control. It’s by the joy set before me that I endure.

Wow, how can we not think that God had faith in his people (children… wife… Israel) that he would not act on their part? By gosh he sent his son :open_mouth: How much more faith and love can you have? :confused:

Simple as apple pie but we screw it up every time.

Chad - If by ‘believing in his children’ is what you mean, I"m all in agreement.

Truly, I do not think that is what MW was saying; if by ‘the faith of God’ he meant that God is our Father, that he believes in and encourages his children - well of course!! Why would I have trouble understanding that?

But that is not what he said. It’s not what he meant.
I am done with MW at this point. ’

Chad - If by ‘believing in his children’ is what you mean by the words ‘the faith of God’, I"m all in agreement. But it did not take MW to teach you that, I"m pretty certain. It has been believed since the beginning. Why would I think otherwise??

And after reading Benny Hinn and others, and their ‘new revelation’ about the ‘faith of God’, I KNOW that they are not talking about His ‘belief’ in his kids.

First of all, I would have to point out that the creator God, might have a reason and a plan and a useful reason for His creation. :astonished:

DaveB said:

Hmmm. But what about the idea that he see’s his creation who he gave free will to acting out in behavior less than becoming, (like our own little children) and He loves us and has faith that we will rise to the occasion (much like we do with our own kids) I think this is a plausible position. Dave I realize it is simplistic, but that is me :laughing:

So can I ask what you think MW is saying? What don’t you like about his message? I would truly appreciate it :smiley:

I’ve never thought differently, brother.

I’ve never thought differenty, brother!! :smiley:

I am done with MW, Chad.

To me, having the faith of Jesus is believing in and following the same God that He did. “The one who is righteous will live by faith” as I understand it means we live by belief in the same set of values( truth, love, forgiveness, compassion, the Golden Rule etc.etc.) that God has put in our hearts and minds.

I like that, and agree with you!

MM. You can have faith in your child. However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much. This is what happened to Peter.When he got out of the boat to walk on the water, he sank.

And THAT makes the very point of this whole discussion… the gospel is about the revelation of “whose faith?” — God’s faith, i.e., “His belief” in each of us, to where we can cast aside our own insufficient faith (belief) and grasp His with solid assurance — because He alone is faithful!!!

Is it the “=” sign that is confusing?
I was responding to something said earlier, to the effect that, since Jesus is God, and Jesus had faith, that therefore God has faith.

“Jesus is God” is a huge statement, and an ambiguous one, but we’ve hashed that over in other threads for years now. Wouldn’t you say that almost without exception, most evangelicals would say ‘Yes’ to the following question: “Is Jesus God”?

Davo, I think you and MW are grasping at straws. If a person has no faith in his own God given abilities to “move mountains” , he’s not going to move squat.
In reference to “whose faith”, there are many different faiths out there to pick and choose from. Having the faith of Jesus is following the same God that He believed in followed.