The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can a Non-Believer Live a Moral Life?

Amen to that.

When I try to comprehend total depravity, I also read John Calvin in theology, Arthur Schopenhauer in philosophy (i.e. here’s a short YouTube video on him - youtu.be/q0zmfNx7OM4) and put on some Blues music (i.e. a sample song - youtu.be/1gDhR1R3S0s). It helps to cheer me up. :wink:

And here is an interesting article or 2, I’ve found today:

Three Arguments Against Total Depravity
An Interesting Problem with Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity

Total depravity does not mean man is as depraved as he could be or couldn’t be worse.

What’s the difference between the total depravity of Calvinism & partial depravity taught by others?

Does anyone believe man is not a sinner and not depraved?

It’s not only Calvinists who believe Jeremiah just as it is written. Look up some Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican & other Protestant commentaries.

Your attempt to explain it away with “context” is like what eternal conscious torment advocates do with passages like 1 Cor.15:22, i.e. it’s only about Christians, the context of the letter is to the church, etc, blah, blah, blah.

As i said the point was self-righteousness, not the “nature” of man, let alone total depravity, a topic that hadn’t even been mentioned yet at that point in this thread.

Obviously that’s the type of person he described.

That’s your assumption, not mine. I never said anything about that verse.

I haven’t even stated anywhere in this thread or site that i believe in Total Depravity.

If you want to try to refute Total Depravity you’ll need to deal with the entire body of evidence, not cherry pick.

That was well said, qaz.

What :exclamation: :question: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: how embarrassing :blush: — YOU’RE the one who introduced that whole foolish notion… just do a simple word-search in this thread on “depravity/depraved” proves this. :unamused:

So here’s your chance at an honest answer Origen… do you believe in ‘total depravity:question:

Randy said:

Calvin’s institutes were, (I believe) an incredible (and important) portrayal of a particular view at a particular time. Time moves on.

I appreciate Calvin, though we do not have to agree with everything he suggests :laughing:

So here we are… :wink:

No. They just say this

. To me, it’s basically the same thing, blaming someone else for your sins.

Total depravity means just what it implies, total=entirely, completely, absolutely, just as Warner Barber states “The vengeance of even a child shows us that man does not have any good in him whatsoever.”

My thoughts exactly.

I corrected the typo from my original post.

You recently were a participant in the following thread.

I’d like you to consider crazy-glueing the following quotes to your PC & forehead:

“Are you saying total depravity is inharmonious with Universal Restoration? If so, then i disagree. Likewise 63% who voted in this threads’ poll think Calvinism & Universalism are compatible.”

“I’m undecided whether Calvinistic Universalism or Libertarian freewill (LFW) Universalism is the truth. It’s one or the other. I’d probably lean to the former.”

“I think i would probably accept that TULI or TULIP without the P.”

Looking forward to seeing what imaginary things you’ll read into those quotes, & the erroneous assumptions you’ll conclude from such fantasies. Hopefully you don’t use the same method with the Scriptures, though i’m afraid you do.

Why don’t you start a thread titled “The gospel truth according to davo” or “Davo’s creedal statement according to the Scriptures”? Would it include all prophesy is already fulfilled, Christ has already returned & won’t be coming again, there are no future resurrections, no post mortem punishment, everyone is already saved, even serial killers, so we might as well all go live it up & part-ay!

What would be the relevance of libertarian free will in such a theology? Or evangelism? Or opposing Calvinism?

So here’s your chance at an honest answer Davo ;

So Am I wrong DaveB? :astonished: Send davo my pm :laughing: You guys tell me if I am wrong…

I have to agree with the sentiments of DaveB who sums this up best…

:laughing:

Does anyone believe man is not a sinner and not depraved?
Origen;

Posts: 435
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Being a sinner doesn’t equate to being depraved IMO. Depraved is a state of being whereas a sinner can be someone who occasionally sins which would include everyone except one.
My understanding of the Calvinist idea of total depravity is that man is incapable of looking for God without God first regenerating him. Man can pursue many things greater then himself like patriotism to country, supporting various causes, supporting sports teams, so why couldn’t he pursue the greatest cause of all which is God?

"In Roman Catholic theology

“No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit. Every time we begin to pray to Jesus it is the Holy Spirit who draws us on the way of prayer by his prevenient grace.”[10]

"The Second Council of Orange of 529 stated that faith, though a free act, resulted even in its beginnings from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief.[11] In canon 23 it is said that God prepares our wills that they may desire the good. Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin… but He (God) first inspires us with faith and love of Him, through no preceding merit on our part.”[12]

“Prevenient grace (from the Latin “to come before”) was discussed in the fifth chapter of the sixth session of the Council of Trent (1545-1563) which used the phrase: “a Dei per dominum Christum Iesum praeveniente gratia” (rendered “a predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ”).[13] Those who turned from God by sins are disposed by God’s grace to turn back and become justified by freely assenting to that grace.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenien … c_theology

I’m no authority on Calvinism, & they often seem reluctant to share what they believe, but according to the following:

“Calvinists have their own doctrine of prevenient grace, which they identify with the act of regeneration and which is immediately and necessarily followed by faith.[14]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevenien … c_theology

"When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they are not saying that human nature has become evil in itself. Human nature is still formed in the image of God; we are still God’s creation, and God has never created anything evil. But our fallen nature remains open to evil intents and actions. It is sometimes said that we are “inclined to sin”; that is, we find some sinful things attractive. It is the nature of temptation to make sinful things seem the more attractive, and it is the fallen nature of humans that seeks or succumbs to the attraction. Orthodox Christians reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of the original sin of their ancestors.[97] But just as any species begets its own kind, so fallen humans beget fallen humans, and from the beginning of our existence we lie open to sinning by our own choice.

Since the fall of man, then, it has been mankind’s dilemma that no human can restore his nature to union with God’s grace; it was necessary for God to effect another change in human nature."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

Suffice it to say, man is made of more than just flesh and blood, as Genesis 2:7 states "“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” I believe that the Spirit of God is in the core of every human being, and whether we like it or not, we cannot be rid of Him.

I did introduce an interesting article or 2, earlier in this thread:

Three Arguments Against Total Depravity
An Interesting Problem with Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity

I do understand total depravity, as the Calvinist sites - Got Questions and CARM - present it. I just don’t agree with it.

Perhaps this video, can answer your question - in 15 seconds: youtu.be/WrjwaqZfjIY. :laughing:

Excellent — straightforward — rational. :sunglasses:

I was raised with the theology that if it wasn’t God’s will to give a poor starving child some food, then it was is evil and sinful. Of course, I wish I was smart enough at the time to say “How would it NOT be God’s will to do something like that?” Crazy, I tell you.

Generally speaking actions are neither good or evil. They’re neutral. The Satan & demon possessed can do just about any action a Christian can.

The more significant question is, what is the motive & spirit behind actions. For God looks on the heart.

For example, in one of the Clint Eastwood Westerns he (Blondie) is dying of thirst in the desert. Chico offers him water from a purely selfish motive, i.e. filthy lucre.

There are many other evil motives as to why the wicked do outwardly superficial (pharisaical) good deeds. Motives they may not be aware of because they lack knowledge of what’s in their own hearts & are decieved.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’

Mt.7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Jn.3:19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Jn.7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me, because I testify that its works are evil.

Mt.12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Eph.2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Eph.5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience.

Col.1:21 You, being in past times alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil works,

Isa.9:17 Therefore the Lord does not take pleasure in their young men, Nor does He have pity on their orphans or their widows; For every one of them is godless and an evildoer, And every mouth is speaking foolishness

Jn.2:23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

I can generally agree with the following, which is as far as i’ve read so far:

“Paul writes that without Christ we are “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20) and “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). The Bible certainly teaches that human beings are depraved – we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. We have all committed sin and therefore stand guilty before God, deserving of death (Romans 6:23). “There are none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). Without Christ, we are depraved sinners in need of a savior.”