Well yes. Eternal life is perhaps the greatest possible benefit. Have I denied this?
Well yes. Eternal life is perhaps the greatest possible benefit. Have I denied this?
No, but until now i don’t recall you affirming it although i could have missed it. So if Jesus died “for the benefit of us” so that we may obtain eternal life and enabling grace , the difference between Jesus dying in our place or for the benefit of us seems to me to be getting pretty immaterial. It may even be just a matter of semantics.
When Jesus got up at the last supper before the drinking of the 4th cup of wine he went to the garden and prayed:
The Bible speaks about this cup:
The cup of wine (blood) is a cup of wrath. Indeed, for us it’s the cup of salvation as we drink the blood (love of Christ)
Indeed, Jesus asks His disciples:
In faith union we are crucified with Christ. Ego death is a painful crucifixion where the old self dies and a new self is resurrected. Paul said “I die daily”
Drinking the love of Christ washes away our sins. We die with Christ. It’s a painful ego puncturing. It’s the same for those in the Lake of fire. They are baptized and reduced to nothing (ashes). They become an empty vessel for the Spirit to fill. Indeed, it’s a baptism in a lake - into water death and fire. A painful ego puncturing that includes God’s wrath.
Those in the lake of fire will be crucified with Christ as the die to self and resurrected to new life.
This is partly what I was pointing out in that former thread… it’s isn’t so much a case of either/or but both, i.e., differing aspects of the redemptive scheme.
Lol, I thought the same thing.
It’s not immaterial. It’s far more than a matter of semantics. There’s all the difference in the world!
1. The Penal Substitution Theory (Jesus dying in our place):
Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God. Jesus died in our place in that He took the punishment that we deserved instead of us. As a result, we are clothed with Christ’s righteousness, so when God looks at us, He doesn’t see our sin, but Christ’s righteousness. Thus God will not punish us; His need to punish sin was satisfied by punishing Christ on the cross. God forsook Him, for He cried out in anguish, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me.” All our sins were laid on Jesus so that we get off scott free. Even if we deliberately continue in sin, we’ll get to heaven anyway, since Jesus paid the price for us by dying to let us off the hook. Otherwise, God, who cannot tolerate sin, would have to punish us in hell forever. Eternal life with God is the great benefit of Jesus dying in our place.
2. The Biblical Teaching of Salvation from Sin (Jesus dying for our benefit—to deliver us from sin):
The angel declared to Joseph, “You will call His name “Jesus” (Saviour) because He will save His people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21)
The angel didn’t say, “… because He will save His people from hell” or “… from punishment.” We do read that God gave His only-begotten Son so that whoever entrusts himself to Him should not perish but have lasting life" (John 3:15). But to entrust oneself to Christ results in being delivered from sin, and this is a requirement for obtaining lasting (or “eternal”) life.
Paul made it clear in Romans 2 that righteousness is necessary in order to acheive immortality and receive lasting (or “eternal”) life:
For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)
Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and “eternal” life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of “works righteousness” or “trying to get to heaven by good works.” They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ’s death, is the means by which “eternal” life is granted.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
How do we appropriate this enabling grace? We appropriate it through faith. Jesus died to provide this enabling grace, and by trusting Him to do so, it becomes a reality in our lives. The consequence is salvation from sin (a life-long process) and everlasting life with God.
We cannot through self-effort consistently overcome sin, and God will not unilaterally save us from sin. But “working together with Him” salvation from sin becomes a reality.
At this point, the believer in substitutionary atonement will declare, “So are you perfect now?” He believes that this understanding is a proclamation of “sinless perfection.” Well, it does look forward to the goal of perfection. Salvation from sin is a life-long process:
As Paul declared in Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
In my late teens, the only “salvation message” I had ever heard was that of penal substitution. But when Tom O’shiro, became the pastor of the little Baptist Church I had attended, I soon realized that he never preached that view. He was always speaking about submitting to Christ. I wondered when he was ever going to preach the gospel (that Christ died as our substitute, and that we had to accept Him as our personal Saviour, so that we would go to heaven instead of hell.)
I used to be a young people’s leader at the time. One day, Tom realized from what I had said to the young people, that I had a great misunderstanding of salvation. So he asked me, “Don, what are we saved from?” I knew the scriptural answer, and so I replied, “From sin.” Then he asked, “And what does that mean?” I answered, “That means that we are saved from the result of sin.” I had in mind that we “get saved” we are saved from hell. Tom then affirmed, “Don, nowhere does it say that we are saved from the result of sin. It says that we are saved from SIN!”
Well I wasn’t ready to accept that at the time. But Tom’s words planted a seed in my heart that eventually bore fruit. The day came when I realized he was right, and when I truly entered the door of salvation. Many years later, I gave testimony to this at a meeting in which Tom was present. He asked me whether he could relate this testimony to his congregation in the east. Of course, I agreed.
Tom spent the last 25 years of his life in service at The Mustard Seed in Victoria. People loved him so much that he could scarcely walk more than a few steps without somebody approaching him and hugging him. Please look at this short 4½ minute video of his retirement from Mustard Seed:
youtube.com/watch?v=U360Bdb78Ok
And an earlier one:
youtube.com/watch?v=GUFzjbPlfUI
Tom died last June at the age of 89.
Thanks Don. I watched the first video just now and he appears to have been quite a man, with hard shoes to fill I expect.
Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and “eternal” life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of “works righteousness” or “trying to get to heaven by good works.” They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ’s death, is the means by which “eternal” life is granted.
Let’s ask John Piper
50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die
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To absorb the wrath of God
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To free us from the slavery of sin
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That we may die to sin and live for righteousness
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To please His heavenly Father
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To achieve His own resurrection from the dead
-
To show God’s love and grace to sinners
-
To cancel the legal demands of the law against us
-
To become a ransom for many
-
For the forgiveness of our sins
-
To provide the basis for our justification
-
To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness
-
To take away our condemnation
-
To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation
-
To bring us to faith and keep us faithful
-
To give us a clear conscious
-
To make us holy
-
To obtain for us all things that are good for us
-
To heal us from moral sickness
-
To give eternal life to all who believe in Him
-
To deliver us from the present evil age
-
To reconcile us to God
-
To bring us to God
-
So that we might belong to Him
-
To give us confident access to the holy place
-
To become for us the place where we meet God
-
To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end
-
Become our High Priest
-
Free us from the futility of our ancestry
-
So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God
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To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves
-
To make His cross the ground of all our boasting
-
To enable us to live by faith in Him
-
To give marriage it’s deepest meaning
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To create people passionate for good works
-
To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love
-
To create crucified followers
-
To free us from the fear of death
-
So that we will be with Him after death
-
To secure our resurrection from the dead
-
To disarm the rulers and authorities
-
To unleash the power of God in the Gospel
-
To destroy hostility between the races
-
Ransom people from every tribe and nation
-
Gather His sheep from around the world
-
Rescue us from final judgment
-
Gain His joy and ours
-
So that He would be crowned with glory
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To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good.
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To learn obedience and be perfected
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Become a sympathetic helpful priest
I’m glad you appreciated Brother O’Shiro, Dave. I hadn’t found out that he died until today, and so I had a time of grief. Interestingly, when the Baptist Church hired him, they thought they were getting an Irish man (O’Shiro). I think some of them were a little shocked at first to discover that he was Japanese.
Michael, the New Testament doesn’t give all those reasons for Christ’s death. And some of them don’t apply.
Take #9 for example: “For the forgiveness of sins.” If Jesus’ death were necessary for the forgiveness of sins, then how was He able to forgive sins while He walked this earth prior to His death?
True, that expression is found in many TRANSLATIONS. For example:
Acts 13:38 (ESV) Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.
But that little Greek word “αφεσις” (aphesis), though It might mean “forgiveness” in some instances, it more often does not. The verbal form can mean “to leave” or “to forsake”. For example Acts 13:38 perhaps should read “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you for the forsaking of sins.” Or perhaps “freedom from sins.”
And here is a passage whose meaning would be ludicrous, if “αφεσις” were translated as “forgiveness”:
Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim forgiveness to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set in forgiveness those who are oppressed.
The captives don’t need forgiveness; they need freedom. The oppressed don’t need forgiveness; they need liberty.
Virtually every translation has something very similar to the NKJV:
To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed.
In the following passage, consider how much more sense the reddened words make when translated “freedom from sins” instead of “forgiveness of sins.” This is Paul talking to his Jewish brethren:
Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man freedom from sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:38,39)
Even if that’s true about forgiveness John Piper and others who believe in Penal Substitution believe in freedom from sins. Indeed, it’s on the list I gave from John Piper. Yes Christ died for the benefit of expiating and cleansing and freeing us of our sins. This happens to a large degree when we come into faith union with Christ and are crucified. According to John Owen:
God might punish the elect either in their own persons, or in their surety standing in their room and stead as their substitute; and when he is punished, they are also punished: for in this point of view the federal head and those represented by him are not considered as distinct, but as one…they are one body in mystical union, yea, one mystical Christ; namely, the surety is the head, those represented by him the members, and when the head is punished, the members are also punished.
Of course, the cross is across time and not time bound. So ego puncturing can happen tomorrow even though Christ was slain some 2000 years ago. For some, being crucified with Christ happens daily or over a period of time. I may agree with you about forgiveness. If our sins are blotted out and remembered no more then there’s nothing to forgive.
- The Penal Substitution Theory (Jesus dying in our place):
Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God.
But the reason he died “to appease the wrath of an angry God” i don’t think is really biblical , more like a church doctrine perhaps associated with eternal torment. Take away that reason and “dying in our place” doesn’t sound that different from “for our benefit” as i see it.
St Michael said: Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and “eternal” life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of “works righteousness” or “trying to get to heaven by good works.” They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ’s death, is the means by which “eternal” life is granted
St Michael said, Let’s ask John Piper
50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die
*All Right ST Michael, not necessarily knowing which position you have taken, I’ve taken a considerable amount of time to counter what Mr. Piper has alleged. My response is in the parentheses And I have to say that I have not read the book but am just responding to what ST Michael has said the book has said, though it makes for great debate non the less *
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To absorb the wrath of God (I agree that the wrath of God is totally taken away by Christ)
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To free us from the slavery of sin (Christ is the Atonement for Israel and in total, the nations. He took away the sin of the world!)
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That we may die to sin and live for righteousness (Our dying to sin is a temporal condition in 2017. In Jesus’ time they needed to make a decision about the Messiah so they could escape the coming wrath.)
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To please His heavenly Father
-
To achieve His own resurrection from the dead (Not sure what this means)
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To show God’s love and grace to sinners (Love and grace is ultimately realized when we understand the total redemptive value of Christ to the Israelites and thus the rest of humanity)
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To cancel the legal demands of the law against us (the problem is that all Calvinist’s want to cancel all legal demands by saying only certain ones are chosen)
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To become a ransom for many (Ransom for Israel, and thus the atoning work for all humanity)
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For the forgiveness of our sins (yep, through Jesus all of the sin problem with God was taken care of. Be advised that we will still sin in the temporal /fleshly realm)
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To provide the basis for our justification (Yes, Christ is our justification. We need to do nothing. He has done it all
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To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness (NO NO NO HE IS OUR RIGHTIOUSNESS)
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To take away our condemnation (It goes without saying Christ took sin upon himself)
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To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation (duh)
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To bring us to faith and keep us faithful (Christ wants all to love their neighbors as them selves)
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To give us a clear conscious (when we understand what Christ has truly done, and the scope of the sacrifice and gift, we can truly have peace)
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To make us holy (I have a hard time being holy, and I am thankful that I don’t have to be because of Christ)
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To obtain for us all things that are good for us(yes we benefit from following Christ’s teachings)
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To heal us from moral sickness (good luck with that)
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To give eternal life to all who believe in Him (a seven hour old baby that dies, a mentally challenged person, a tribal person that has never heard of Christ, are we really saying that some how God is going to turn His back on them?)
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To deliver us from the present evil age ( First of all, All of the New testament was written some two thousand years ago to people that were very far removed from our culture and understanding)
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To reconcile us to God (yepper, we through Christ are reconciled to God. Thank the Lord AMEN)
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To bring us to God (in Christ’s time he was sent as a prophet to warn the Israelites of their coming doom if they did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.)
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So that we might belong to Him (We all belong to him. HE FREEKING MADE US)
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To give us confident access to the holy place ( Read Hebrews )
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To become for us the place where we meet God (no, Christ Died so The promises to Israel could be fulfilled, and unfortunately, He also foretold of the coming calamity that was about to overtake the Jewish nation at that time.)
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To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end (ABSOLUTLY)
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Become our High Priest (YES SIR)
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Free us from the futility of our ancestry (YEPPER)
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So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God (so that the first century Jews would rethink their reliance on the law and realize Jesus was the real deal)
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To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves (Jesus said , love your neighbor as your self. I’m not sure he ever said to live for him. Though Paul definitely had that slant)
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To make His cross the ground of all our boasting ( it depends on what your view of the cross means to you)
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To enable us to live by faith in Him (actually, we just need to* understand *the Faith that God had in humanity to send us HIS SON to die so we can be reconciled to Him, thus our understanding has nothing to do with the reconciliation, but that it simply is a matter of ‘understanding’ that will change peoples lives)
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To give marriage it’s deepest meaning (no comment)
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To create people passionate for good works (what is one persons good works is another’s burden)
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To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love (yes yes)
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To create crucified followers (I have no Idea what this means)
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To free us from the fear of death (Oh God , if John Piper could ever believe tis for all of humanity there would be angels rejoicing in the heavens )
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So that we will be with Him after death (we believe in the resurrection)
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To secure our resurrection from the dead .(yes, Christ did this, no need on our part to do anything. Christ was the total sufficiency for all of humankinds BS.)
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To disarm the rulers and authorities (not sure about this , I’ll get back to you)
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To unleash the power of God in the Gospel (my friend, the power has been unleashed, the new covenant has been instituted, The new creation is at hand no matter haw hard humans try to rebel against the fact)
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To destroy hostility between the races (ALL OF HUMANITY)
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Ransom people from every tribe and nation (ALL OF HUMANITY)
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Gather His sheep from around the world (this verbiage is indicative of the understanding that Christ was talking to first century Jews who were about to experience the wrath of God if they did not listen to Jesus)
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Rescue us from final judgment (that through Christ has already been accomplished)
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Gain His joy and ours (not sure what is meant)
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So that He would be crowned with glory (yes all the saints are crowed with glory, thus our admonition to follow the first century saints and martyrs to follow Christ)
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To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good. (I believe in free will.)
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To learn obedience and be perfected (okay, I agree to a point)
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Become a sympathetic helpful priest (Yes our life is to help others, to become servants, to die to self centeredness so others may live.)
So, I would welcome some (and I am sure many will come) criticisms that I have with St Michael’s portrayal of Mr. Pipers book.
Maintenace,
I don’t agree with all of it just some of it. If you want to see my summary of what being crucified with Christ is see my post above the Piper quote. My point was that people who believe in penal substitution not only believe that God’s wrath was removed but also that our sins are cleansed and expiated.
Maintenace,
I don’t agree with all of it just some of it. If you want to see my summary of what being crucified with Christ is see my post above the Piper quote. My point was that people who believe in penal substitution not only believe that God’s wrath was removed but also that our sins are cleansed and expiated.
Cool, but you opened a door for dialog. When you post 50 reasons for anything, you get what you ask for.
Thanks,
Thnx
The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., on their behalf — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.
BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — thus did all benefit — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).
Heb 7:27; 9:14 …for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself… …who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God…
I’m not sure if Don’s caricature of the penal substitution theory is totally correct, but others who hold to it might be better placed to say.
[size=140]Caricature?[/size]
Caricature—exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics
Did I do that?
Sorry Don… “characterisation” is the better word.
Actually, I thought that may have been the word you meant.