The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

Do we still think it is Islamaphobic to take a moment to rethink OUR immigration vetting?

From heatst.com/life/attendance-plum … -assaults/ ::

The amount of people who attended this year’s Oktoberfest—the world’s largest beer festival in Munich — dropped to its lowest level in 15 years amid growing fears about rampant rapes and other sex crimes often linked to Germany’s burgeoning migrant population.

Oktoberfest 2016 had around 5.6 million visitors, which is some 300,000 fewer than last year. However even with heightened security, the number of reported sex crimes increased to 31 cases, according to police reports.

The low turnout for Oktoberfest is also being partially blamed on the series of recent terror incidents to rock Western Europe, some of which have hit very close to home. In July, a German-Iranian student killed nine people in a Munich shopping mall and then turned the gun on himself. That same week, an Afghan migrant injured five people in an axe attack, and a failed asylum seeker blew himself up outside a music festival in Ansbach, Germany injuring 15 people.

Germany is one of Western Europe’s top destinations for asylum-seeking refugees. It alone accounted for one third of the refugees received last year. It is reported that there were 1.3 million migrants who arrived in Germany in 2015 and nearly half of them were young males.

There has been growing concern (and evidence) that Europe’s refugee crisis has led to an increase in crime, including mass sex assault.

In a recent case in Cologne during the 2016 New Year’s celebrations, 1200 women were assaulted. It took police days to report that the overwhelming majority of perpetrators were asylum-seeking men who’d recently arrived in Germany.

From frontpagemag.com/fpm/267008/ … greenfield

The Democratic National Committee announced that Resistance Summer would begin in June. James Hodgkinson, a Bernie Sanders volunteer, delivered by opening fire on Republicans playing baseball.

Hodgkinson had spent the weeks before the shooting staring at the site of his future attack and working on his laptop. What was he doing on his laptop? Ranting about Trump and Republicans.

The left-wing terrorist who opened fire on Republicans practicing for a charity baseball game, an event to which they had brought their children, didn’t come up with his own ideas. His Facebook pages were dumpsters rotting with reposted left-wing hate. There was Bill Moyers’ Resistance plan along with Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Rachel Maddow, Robert Reich and Noam Chomsky.

They helped shape Hodgkinson’s conviction that Republicans had to be destroyed. Or as the title of a Facebook group that he belonged to put it, “Terminate the Republican Party.”

James Hodgkinson did his best in a Virginia park. And he wasn’t a lone lunatic. Not by a long shot.

After the attack, the office of Congresswoman Claudia Tenney (R-N.Y.) received an email reading “One down, 216 to go". Congressman Tom Garrett (R-Va.) needed security after receiving threats reading, “This is how we’re going to kill your wife”. Other threats described graphic atrocities against his daughters and even his dog.

NYT:

(Anyone who thought that the left would show an ounce of decency after the GOP shootings was living in a very optimistic fantasy world. )

Here’s the New York Times’ editorial.

“…In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized cross hairs.”

FPM: "There was no excuse for this lie when it was first unveiled. In 2017, it’s a smear that shows that the media will shamelessly lie without scruples or any notion of ethics.

Loughner had no politics. The Times editorial board neglects to mention that he murdered a Republican judge. But that wouldn’t fit the agenda."

The Left has used this logic, now a righty used it. It turns out that Loughner had no politics, but was definitely handicapped by severe paranoia. We’ll have to wait and see if the recent shooting was connected and to what extent to the litany of hatred, vitriol, Rachel Maddow, Kathy Griffith, Conan and some calls to violence that the shooter had been reading.

Not at all. I think both your country and mine should do all we can to screen immigrants in order to keep out terrorists and other killers, or people who would be likely to harm our people in some way.

What I do think would constitute Islamophobia would be make a law that would banish all Muslims from entering our countries. I can understand the mind set of those who would support such a law; it’s human nature to paint all people in an ethnic group with the same brush. During both world wars, some citizens of both our countries treated people of German descent badly. Just a personal example: one of my great uncles was a pastor of a church in United States. Because he had a German surname and took a non-resistant stance, it was falsely believed that he was a supporter of Germany during World War 1 and he was dismissed from his position as pastor.

Yeh… the fighting Irish, the tightwad Scotch, the lazy … the drunken…, etc. etc. etc. It’s human nature to generalize.

And my Zombie friends, have been kicked out of places - too numerous to count. Sometimes, they have to go into hiding. :laughing:

What I do think would constitute Islamophobia would be make a law that would banish all Muslims from entering our countries. I can understand the mind set of those who would support such a law; it’s human nature to paint all people in an ethnic group with the same brush

But it’s not about an ethnic group, it’s about people who claim they believe the Quran which commands them to institute Sharia and to forcibly convert unbelievers at the risk of death or subjugation. Early in the Quran Mohammad is reasonable but later on he becomes hostile to opposition and muslims regard his later teachings as prevalent.
So Paidion as an educated fellow who has seen a few things , seriously speaking i would be happy if you convince me that Islam is not really dangerous but it seems to me to be just that. So if that’s the case how can letting people in who believe this book, make sense to our children and grandchildren?

"As for immigration, one point that needs to be made over and over in the teeth of retromingent leftist incomprehension is that** immigration is justified only if it benefits the host country. ** Trump understands this; Hillary and her ilk do not. This is another reason why his defeat of Hillary is cause for jubilation. No doubt it is good for Muslims that they be allowed to flood into Germany; but what the Germans need to ask is whether there is any net benefit to them of this in-flooding. And the same for every country.

This is just common sense, a commodity in short supply among lefties whom I call retromingents because of their tendency to piss on the past and its wisdom." - BV

"Under Islam there is no separation of mosque and state. This is one of the reasons why Islam is incompatible with the values of the West.

The threat of Islam in this regard is actually two-fold. There is the general threat to the separation of church/mosque/synagogue and state. And there is the more specific threat posed by Islam’s being the worst of the great religions. Suppose the USA were ruled by a Christian theocracy. That would not be good, but it would be far better than if it were ruled by a Muslim theocracy." - BV

I understand it, but believe it to be morally wrong to allow immigration only if it benefits the country. After South Vietnam was conquered by the Communist North, many refugees succeed in escaping. Canada took in many of them—out of compassion, not out of expected benefits.

My wife and I, and two of my nephews and their wives sponsored a succession of refugees who lived in a trailer on my property. The first family we sponsored consisted of the Father who had been an electro-chemical engineer, his wife who had been a pharmacist, and their three sons who were at the top of their classes at the local school, though English was not their primary language. This couple was always trying to save us money. One day, I found Van (pronounced “Vang”) in the field in front of the trailer. He had spread a cloth over four uprights, and had placed potatoes cut in the shape of French fries onto the cloth. I asked him what he was doing. He said, “Drying these potatoes in the sun. I want to make French fries.” I asked him, “Why don’t you just place them in boiling oil to cook them?” His reply: “Save electricity.”

Van was a leader. He had been selected to take charge of a large number of refugees prior to arriving in Canada. Just the kind of people the Communists wanted to eliminate. Finally, they moved to Vancouver. I wept when they left.

Doubtless many of the Vietnamese, especially people such as this family, came to be a great asset to Canada. However, that is but a consequent of assisting them—not a reason for assisting them.

My point was, Paidion, that these particular immigrants need to be very carefully vetted, with our own good in mind. We know that there will be terrorists in the mix, so as much as we would like to help the rest, unless we have proof positive that they are good citizens willing to accept our culture, and refuse Sharia, we shouldn’t let any of them in.
Another thing - it has been shown that the Muslims themselves generally know who the bad apples are, but don’t share that information with us. Perhaps a show of good faith on their part would help ease the situation.

Your situation was I think different, and I thank you for sharing that story.

Not to be cold, or make light of this situation, but immgration is not the solution to the worlds problems, and in fact, it creates more problems. Typically the brightest and most capable people and potential leaders of a given nation in turmoil are the ones who migrate to 1st world countries. This means the people who can actually change their countries are leaving behind the people that are less likely and capable of changing.

I believe the entire 1st world could only manage around 5-10 million immigrants per years before everything destabilized. There are more births per years in countries where people are impoverished than can be taken away, not to to mention the BILLIONS of people left out. I mean, immigration AT best is like paying an interest only loan. It doesn’t make a dent into the huge principle and continues to get worse.

Here is a great video on it that is an eye opener.

youtube.com/watch?v=l6tSqGCfoCI

This news is so exciting, I can hardly contain myself. And it’s a high point, of the Trump presidency - for nerds and geeks everywhere. I shared this BBC article on Twitter today: :ugeek: :smiley:

E3 2017: In Trump, indie developers find inspiration

unless we have proof positive that they are good citizens willing to accept our culture, and refuse Sharia, we shouldn’t let any of them in.

This is critical , you can’t accept folks who believe in Sharia, it’s precisely opposes western values and culture and government. If this gets ignored then we leave our kids and grandkids with a gigantic unsolvable problem.

So what are you proposing Steve, that is in accordance, with the US constitution?

Add an amendment, to revoke the separation of church and state?
Ask all Muslims to leave the US and prevent any more from coming in?
Etc.

And what about other groups, like the 1% biker gangs? When I hung around the Native Americans, I meet a couple of Natives. One used to hang around the Outlaws and the other, was a former Hells Angel. And they used to share stories. If I had a choice, of making enemies with ISIS, Hells Angels, or Outlaws, I would probably choose ISIS. At least I could pretend to convert to Islam, grow a beard and change my name to Mohammad. I would have a chance to survive.

So what exactly do you propose Steve? Maybe it’s been covered by you, in an earlier thread post. Please refresh my memory then.

So what exactly do you propose Steve? Maybe it’s been covered by you, in an earlier thread post. Please refresh my memory then.

I wouldn’t let anyone who adheres to Sharia law into this country because you would be jeopardizing our kids and grandkids future. I’m not for deporting anyone who is already a citizen but we have no obligation to take in anyone and i wouldn’t take in any immigrant who believes Sharia s/b the law of the land. Why would you, can you give me a compelling reason? The only reason i can think of is for a refugee for humanitarian reasons but IMHO we would be sacrificing the lives of our future generations which we have no right to do. Europe has already done this and their problems are just beginning. As far as refugees go i would try to help them but refugees are a worldwide problem since the beginning of time.

And what about other groups, like the 1% biker gangs? When I hung around the Native Americans, I meet a couple of Natives. One used to hang around the Outlaws and the other, was a former Hells Angel. And they used to share stories. If I had a choice, of making enemies with ISIS, Hells Angels, or Outlaws, I would probably choose ISIS. At least I could pretend to convert to Islam, grow a beard and change my name to Mohammad. I would have a chance to survive.

You can pretend to convert to Islam if you want, i’ll pass. What about Biker gangs or any other criminals? I don’t get the comparison of that to taking in refugees that we are not required to take in who adhere to a belief system called Sharia which compels them to not follow our western laws and culture and to a religion that commands them to subjugate us or kill us.

Biker gangs can be much worse than ISIS. So, tell me. A Muslim wants to come to this country. He or she believes in Sharia. But lies and says he or she doesn’t. How do we know, if they are telling the truth or not? Should we hypnotize them, give them a truth drug or a lie detector test? Or throw them into a pit of zombies, until they scream the truth? Or even water board them? Perhaps hire Bugs Bunny?

Biker gangs can be much worse than ISIS. So, tell me. A Muslim wants to come to this country. He or she believes in Sharia. But lies and says he or she doesn’t. How do we know, if they are telling the truth or not? Should we hypnotize them, give them a truth drug or a lie detector test? Or throw them into a pit of zombies, until they scream the truth? Or even water board them? Perhaps hire Bugs Bunny?

But Biker gangs presumably are citizens and if not and commit crimes then punish them and deport them like they’re doing with MS13 gangmembers.
MS13 can be worse then ISIS and Biker gangs. At any rate i wouldn’t invite any of them to my next birthday party.
As far as getting the truth out of muslim immigrants and Sharia law i’d make them continue spending time with Nancy Pelosi until they tell the truth
or maybe there are records available someplace? If not i’d go by whatever evidence is available.

Boko Haram kidnapping 240 young girls to turn into sex slaves, and then kill them. Beheadings on the beach. Burning people alive in cages. Throwing gay off of buildings.

And broadcasting it worldwide.

Of course they are going to lie. They will do anything and btw - the holy Koran says it is okay to lie to infidels. And rape their women.

Point being - no system is perfect, biker gangs can be no good - but we cannot just yell ‘equivalence’ and shut our eyes to the horrors we invite into the country.

I would say - don’t let any of them in. But it appears that the country is willing to allow horrors as long as we don’t look like we are being mean.

as long as we don’t look like we are being mean.

To whom? Also many muslims think if you rape an infidel women it makes her muslim. Is that a Biker gangs creed too meaning it makes her a Biker Queen?

I know Islam allows one, to have sex with slave women. Yes, a biker gang will commit a gang rape. And some of the women, who hang around them - believe it or not - actually encourage and like it. Go figure.

And here’s a good article, on the MS13 gang at 6 Common Misconceptions About the MS13 Street Gang. Let me quote an element, from the article:

I recommend these books - available on Amazon:

Vagos, Mongols, and Outlaws: My Infiltration of America’s Deadliest Biker Gangs by Charles Falco
Hell’s Angels: A Strange and Terrible Saga by Hunter S. Thompson

Jersey Tough: My Wild Ride from Outlaw Biker to Undercover Cop by by Wayne “Big Chuck” Bradshaw