The Evangelical Universalist Forum

SNIPPETS FROM MY HARD COPY UR LIBRARY

THE HAPPY GOD

THE GLORY OF THE HAPPY GOD – ARTHUR CHARLES LAMB

“We read in 1Tim. 1:11 that Paul was entrusted with the evangel of the glory of the happy God. We read in 1Tim. 2:4 that God wills that all mankind be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and that Christ Jesus gave Himself a correspondent ransom for all (2:6).

Our God is a happy God. In Ephesians 1:10,11 we learn of the secret of God’s will, and this accords with His delight. It gives God joy and happiness and delight to purpose and bring about ‘an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ.’
Such an evangel is certainly for the laud of His glory.”

This anonymous article came into my inbox. – Barry Kearns
HELL DOES IT EXIST?

Does “Hell” really exist? Is there a “Hell” in the Bible?
Hell no! There is no “Hell” in the Bible!

Name withheld- an editor and publisher of Holocaust poetry and a “recovering fundamentalist”

Hell is child abuse, pure and simple. We need to end the emotional, psychological and

spiritual abuse of millions of innocent children by their pastors, Sunday school teachers and

parents, today. And as I intend to prove, there is no reason for adults to threaten children

with hell (children grow up, a fact that continually eludes Christian theologians who insist

that Jesus loves the little children, and yet may turn his back on them when they reach the

mysterious “age of accountability,” which was never mentioned in relation to salvation by

Jesus or any apostle or Hebrew prophet).

Would it surprise you to know that the God of the Bible and his prophets never condemned

anyone to “hell” at any age? Here is a simple proof that there is no reason to believe

in “hell,” according to the Bible itself:

• There is no mention of “hell” or any possibility of suffering after death anywhere in the

Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament (OT).

• The Hebrew word Sheol clearly means “the grave,” not “hell.” This can easily be

confirmed because if Sheol is translated as “hell” the Christian dogma of hell as an

inescapable place of suffering where God is absent is immediately refuted. This is true

because:

(1) King David said that if he made his bed in Sheol, God would be there with him;

(2) Job asked to be hidden from suffering in Sheol;

(3) The sons of Korah said that God would redeem them from Sheol; and

(4) The prophet Ezekiel and the apostle Paul agreed that all Israel would be saved, and

yet Israel himself said that he would be reunited with his son Joseph in Sheol. How can all

Israel be saved if Israel himself is in “hell”"? In each case Sheol clearly means “the grave”

and cannot be interpreted as “hell” unless “hell” is heaven!

• This has been confirmed by conservative Bible scholars because there is no mention of the

word “hell” in the OTs of the NIV (the best-selling Bible), the NABRE (produced by the

Roman Catholic Church), the HCSB (published by the famously literal Southern Baptist

Convention), and most other modern translations of the Bible.

• Furthermore, in biblical chronologies spanning thousands of years, the God of the Bible

and his Hebrew prophets never mentioned any possibility of punishment after death.

Nothing like “hell” was even remotely suggested to Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Job,

Moses, David, and Solomon, at all.

• In fact, “hell” was never mentioned even to the worst people at the worst of times.

“Hell” was never mentioned to Cain (the first murderer), nor to the people guilty of the

wickedness that led to the Great Flood, nor to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, nor even

to the Pharaoh who enslaved the Hebrew tribes and defied God repeatedly.

• We can further verify this because there are no Old Test. warnings about the need to

repent in order to avoid suffering after death. In the OT, people were being warned about

the need to repent in order to avoid suffering and death here, on this planet, in this life.

• Of course it makes absolutely no sense to only warn people about temporal (earthly)

punishments if they face eternal suffering. Therefore according to the Bible, “hell” clearly

did not preexist.

• But there is no mention of the creation or purpose of “hell” in the New Testament (NT).

Nor is there any verse in the entire Bible that ever announced that the penalty for sin

changed from death to “hell.” Why would God clearly announce the penalty of death before

it was enacted, but never once mention the far more serious penalty of hell before it was

enacted? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

• A loving, compassionate, wise, just God could not create an “eternal hell” and fail to

immediately warn the whole world about it. But obviously the whole world was not warned

about the creation of “hell.” Native Americans knew absolutely nothing about hell before

  1. Billions of people have lived and died never having heard anything about hell or Jesus

Christ. Would anyone who had never read the Bible consider God to be just if he died and

woke up in hell? Of course not!

• An eternal hell would make God monstrously unjust, but according to the Bible

itself, “hell” did not preexist and was never created. From beginning to end, the Bible is

absolutely silent about either the preexistence or creation of “hell.”

• Furthermore, the Greek word “Hades” does not mean “hell.” As with Sheol, everyone

went to Hades when they died: both words clearly mean “the grave.”

• Gehenna is not “hell” either, but a physical location in Israel known in Hebrew as

Gehinnom, or the Valley of Hinnom.

Today Gehenna is a lovely park and tourist attraction. Wonderful archeological discoveries

have been made there, such as the healing pool of Siloam and the oldest Bible verses ever

discovered, inscribed on small silver amulets. Those verses are the benediction "The

LORD bless thee and keep thee; the LORD make his countenance to shine upon thee and

be gracious unto thee." Those are wonderfully comforting words to have been discovered

in “hell,” don’t you think?

• What does all this mean? If you believe in a loving, compassionate, wise, just God, you

might conclude that “hell” has always been either an error of translation or an outright

human fabrication. Why would human beings invent hell?

Well, as ancient Greek philosophers like Celsus pointed out, hell was a good way to control

the unwashed masses. Hell was also a handy way to increase church attendance and

revenues.

But perhaps the best reason not to believe in hell is this: If at any time God, Jesus, the

Hebrew prophets, or any of the apostles were aware of the existence of an “eternal hell,”

they should have immediately warned human beings never to have children, because the

risk of giving birth was too terrible to imagine.

But of course there are no such warnings in the Bible. Rather, Hebrew prophets like Ezekiel

confidently predicted that all Israel would be saved in the end, along with Sodom and other

Gentile nations that were historically enemies of Israel, such as Samaria. Samaria is now

home to millions of Palestinians, many of them either enemies or fierce critics of Israel.

Most Jews and Palestinians have never believed in Jesus, so how can all Israel and Samaria

be saved, if only Christians are saved?

How did “hell” enter the Bible? Ironically, the only Jews who believed in “hell” at the

time of Jesus were the Pharisees. We know this from the Jewish historian Josephus, a

contemporary of Paul. The Pharisees undoubtedly “borrowed” the concept of “hell” from

the pagan Greeks after Alexander the Great conquered the Middle East during the “silent”

period between the writing of the Old Test. and New Test.

But the Greek hell was Tartarus, not Hades. As we will see, there is one verse only, in the

entire Bible containing a word that actually means hell, but that hell is not for human beings,

nor is it eternal. To note: 2 Peter 2:4-6)


Chad Holtz is a Methodist pastor who was recently asked to resign by members of his rural

North Carolina congregation after he questioned the Christian dogma of an “eternal hell.”

Holtz had made positive remarks about the bestseller book Love Wins, written by Rob Bell,

another pastor who questions the existence of “hell.” (Bell was the focus of the cover of the

April 25, 2011 issue of TIME Magazine, captioned “What If There’s No Hell?”)

Holtz agreed to leave his church in what he termed a “divorce.” In an interview published

online Holt said, "We do these somersaults to justify the monster god we believe in … Am I

really going to be saved just because I believe something, when all these good people in the

world aren’t?"

Mind you, Holtz is not saying that God is a monster. Instead, he’s simply pointing out that

orthodox Christianity makes God seem like a monster by claiming he’ll condemn billions

of people to an “eternal hell” for not “believing” in Jesus, when he could have saved them

by grace. But how can a God who chooses to remain hidden demand human belief? That is

patently unfair.

If a man refused to introduce himself to other people, then started torturing them for

not “believing” in him, we’d lock him up and throw away the key. But as I intend to prove,

if you will bear with me, that the Bible itself contradicts the idea that God ever said that

anyone would go to an “eternal hell.” In fact, if we read the Bible chronologically from the

beginning of Genesis to the end of the book of Acts (the self-recorded history of the early

Christian church), we will not find a single verse in which God or any Hebrew prophet or

Jesus or any apostle ever mentioned a place called “hell.”

This is true because the words Sheol, Hades and Gehenna do not mean “hell.” The Hebrew

word Sheol clearly means “the grave” or “the abode of all the dead, good and bad.” The

Greek word Hades also means “the grave” or “the abode of all the dead, good and bad.”

Gehenna is a valley, not “hell.”

According to the Bible “hell” clearly did not preexist and just as clearly was never created.

Did evil-minded men begin damning other people to “hell” in the name of God? Yes, they

did. But they cobbled their hellish verses into the Bible so clumsily that they forget to insert

fictitious verses announcing the creation of “hell”! Such a colossal blunder could only have

been made by fallible men, not an all-wise God.


If we consider the Bible as a whole, from multiple angles, it becomes obvious that “hell”

was created by human beings, not God. The verses that describe suffering after death

are not credible, and the proofs are simple. For instance, a verse in Genesis 3:3) clearly

announced that the penalty for sin was death, as soon as the penalty was enacted. But where

is there any verse in the Bible that clearly announced when the penalty became eternal

suffering?

Where is there any verse in the Bible that clearly announced the creation or purpose

of “hell”? There are no such verses anywhere in the Bible. Nor are there any verses that

unclearly announce such things. The Bible is completely, absolutely silent about the most

important event in human history (if it actually occurred): the creation of a place called

“hell” and the change of the penalty for sin from death to eternal damnation.

How could a loving, wise, just God create an “eternal hell” yet never once mention its

creation and purpose to any of his prophets or apostles? How could a loving, wise, just God

cause or allow billions of people to suffer for all eternity when they died knowing nothing

about the Bible, Jesus or “hell”? Why would God save “the chosen few” by grace, but deny

any chance of grace to billions of people who never heard of Jesus?


At the time of Jesus and Paul, “the entire world” meant the Roman Empire: a narrow strip

of cities, towns and villages fringing the Mediterranean Sea.

The early Christians knew nothing about vast continents that wouldn’t be discovered and

explored for another 1,500 years or more: North America, South America and Australia.

They knew nothing about China, Japan, Southeast Asia, Central and Southern Africa,

Russia, or thousands of faraway islands. When they vowed to preach the gospel to "the

entire world," they had no idea what that really entailed.

So what happened to the billions of human beings who lived and died in the meantime,

knowing nothing about the Bible or Jesus? If God condemned them all to “hell,” that would

make God horrendously unjust, and therefore unqualified to judge human beings. But if

people who hadn’t heard about Jesus didn’t go to “hell,” while people who heard about

Jesus and rejected him did, then it would be a terrible crime for Christians to ever mention

the name “Jesus” to non-Christians.

Furthermore, through the centuries Christians have so defamed and blasphemed the name

of Jesus by raping, enslaving and murdering multitudes of non-Christians that it makes no

sense to expect non-Christians to “believe” in him. Should a Jewish girl who was raped,

tortured and murdered by German Christians during the Holocaust be punished eternally

for not converting to their religion? Heaven forbid!


I believe Holtz made a very important point: one that is seldom voiced by Christians. If

Jesus will cause or allow Mohandas Gandhi and Jewish Holocaust victims to suffer for

all eternity, when the Christian Bible clearly says that Jesus is the only savior and human

beings can’t save themselves, wouldn’t that make Jesus a monster?

If an all-knowing God created human beings foreseeing in advance that many (or any)

of them would suffer for all eternity, wouldn’t that also make God a monster? And if

Christian mothers believe in “hell,” how can they give life to babies who might end up in

“hell” — wouldn’t that make them monsters?

This is the horror of hell-based Christianity: it turns God, Jesus and Christian mothers into

monsters willing to play eternal roulette with the souls of innocent children.

And what about all the mothers who would be forced to choose between Jesus and their

own children? Could good mothers live happily in heaven with Jesus, knowing their

children were suffering forever because Jesus refused to save them, when he was able

to save the thief on the cross with a nod of his head? Surely only the bad mothers would

remain in heaven. All the good mothers would curse Jesus and storm out of heaven to be

with their children. They certainly wouldn’t worship or praise the petty egomaniac who

demanded belief without ever bothering to introduce himself to their children personally!

Please keep in mind that I am not calling Jesus a petty egomaniac. It’s the “Bible believing”

fundamentalists who turned Jesus into a petty monster with their bizarre theology, not me.

I’m a recovering fundamentalist who no longer blasphemes the name of Jesus by accusing

him of saving Christians by “grace” while condemning the saints of other religions and

non-religions to an “eternal hell.” Ironically, most atheists, agnostics and other nonChristians have much higher opinions of Jesus that Christians who accuse him of being

petty, unjust and inhumanly cruel.

Gandhi and Einstein both admired Jesus, while not “believing” in him in the orthodox

Christian sense. But at least they didn’t accuse him of being so petty and cruel that he

would cause or allow billions of souls to suffer for all eternity. Most Muslims believe in

Jesus and have a high opinion of him, but they don’t believe he sends people to “hell” for

not “believing” in him.

Ironically, the people with the lowest, basest opinions of Jesus are the Christians who

pretend to “love” and “admire” him in order to “save” themselves, while in effect telling

the rest of the world that he’s the Devil. How can anyone “love” a being capable of causing

or allowing their loved ones to suffer for all eternity?

That would be like me pretending to “love” and “admire” Hitler during the Holocaust, in

order to escape torture at the hands of the Nazis. But of course the driving impulse would

be fear, not love. The Bible says perfect love casts out fear because fear produces torment.

Should I believe in the perfect love of God or in a hell that produces nothing but torment?

As we will see together, there are many Bible verses that completely contradict the idea that

God will punish anyone for all eternity, or fail to save anyone in the end. Here are just a few

of them (there are more at the bottom of this page)

truly I say unto you, the tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the kingdom of heaven

before the self-righteous. (Matthew 21:31) Think about it: Jesus had table fellowship with

the outcasts of society, drank wine and ate with them, and reserved virtually all his criticism

for the “religious experts” who failed to be hospitable to “sinners.”

Today conservative Christians seem to despise prostitutes, homosexuals, and anyone else

who doesn’t meet their “high moral standards,” while their self-righteousness makes the

rest of us gnash our teeth. But Jesus clearly said that love and compassion were the real

moral standards.

(The Hebrew prophets and Jesus also clearly said that the “sin of Sodom” was selfrighteousness and a lack of compassion, not homosexuality, which ironically would make

conservative Christians the “Sodomites.”) Jesus also said that the first would be last and the

last first. Did he mean what he said?

The verse above doesn’t say that anyone will be excluded from the kingdom of heaven in

the end, but it certainly doesn’t make moralists the “chosen few” who inherit heaven at the

expense of the people they despise.

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces.

(Isaiah. 25:

Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(Matthew 16:18) Most of the estimated hundred billion people who have lived here on earth

died without reading the Bible or knowing anything about Jesus. If most of mankind ends

up going to “hell” then the gates of hell will have prevailed and Jesus will be just another

inept, failed Messiah. How can Jesus be the Savior of the World unless the entire world is

saved?

For unto this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,

who is the Savior of all men, especially believers. (1Timothy 4:10) This is only one of many

Bible verses that say all men will be saved, and that God will be all in all (not all in some, or

all in the self-proclaimed “chosen few”).

Paul said that all Israel would be saved, agreeing with the prophet Ezekiel, who also said

that the Gentile nations, including Sodom, would be saved in the end, linking their salvation

to Israel’s. Paul said that different people would be saved at different times, in stages, with

Jesus being the First fruits of the resurrection. Orthodox Christians ignore the best verses

in the Bible to focus narrowly on the worst. Why is that? If we can’t believe the best verses,

why believe the worst?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, (1 Corinthians 15:22) We

know that all human beings die; this verse clearly says that the same “all” shall be made

alive, in Christ. There are many such verses in both the Old and New Testaments.

All flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke3:6)

I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor

things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be

able to separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness, as in:

(Jeremiah 31:3) In his epiphany on Divine Love in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul said that Divine

Love never gives up, endures all things, and never fails, which sounds like the love of the

best human mothers. And the Bible insists that the love of God exceeds human love …

Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has

borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! (Isaiah 49:15) This verse compares the

love of God to the love of a human mother. Would any compassionate mother torture her

child for a second, much less all eternity? No, the only suffering she might permit would

be remedial suffering, such as surgery to correct a birth defect. And even then she would

agonize with her child. Just think about that?

A UNIVERSAL SALVATION THESIS THAT SHOULD BE ON
THE REQUIRED READING LIST OF ALL BIBLE SCHOOLS

Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
concordant.org/expositions/his-a … nt-are-we/

Click on each highlighted subtitle to read the entirety of each of the seventeen sections

HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN…
A recently published book that shows why Gerry believes that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.
hopebeyondhell.net/what-others-are-saying/

HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN…
hopebeyondhell.net/
It can be downloaded FREE and read online.

HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/

THE HORNETS :slight_smile:

Sung to the tune of “This Is Like Heaven To Me.”

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them in time,
And help His own people to win.

The hornets persuaded them that it was best,
To go quickly, and not to go slow;
God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
But He just made them willing to go.

Chorus

He does not compel us to go, No! No!
He does not compel us to go.
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urgings to make yourself scarce,
You’d want to get out, don’t you see.
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
Throw you out of the window, Oh No,!
They would not compel you’ to go 'gainst your will,
But they’d just make you willing to go.

Chorus

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright;
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
But God sent a big fish to swallow him up,
The story I’m sure you all know;
He did not compel him to go 'gainst his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

Chorus

When Moses was sent to lead Israel out,
To Canaan’s rich fruit-bearing land.
Resisting His Spirit they worshiped a calf,
But refused to obey God’s Command.
God did not compel them to go to the land,
Which with wine, milk, and honey did flow,
But fed them on manna for forty long years,
'Till He got them all ready to go.

Chorus

When Balaam was sent to the Moabite king,
And wanted things run his own way,
His mule, ever faithful, spoke at the right time,
Made him willing God’s Will to obey.
God can use any man, since He used Balaam’s mule,
For He is Almighty you know;
He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will
But He just makes us willing to go.

Chorus

HOW I RECOVERED

WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH —
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 76 years old

My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 78 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into your browser address bar.

  1. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
    tentmaker.org/books/Absolute … hrist.html
  2. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
    tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
  3. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
    tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
  4. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
  5. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
    tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
  6. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
    tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
  7. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN “HELL” - J. Preston Eby
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … d/hell.htm
  8. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
    tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
  9. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
    tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
  10. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
    tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
  11. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
    tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
  12. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
    tentmaker.org/books/RichMana … ching.html
  13. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
    tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
  14. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
  15. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
    tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr … ained.html
  16. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA - Louis Abbott
    tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
  17. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
    AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
    tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
  18. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
    concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie … index.html
  19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
    auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
  20. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
    godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
  21. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm
    ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
    tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm
  22. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
    thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
  23. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE - Thomas Kissinger
    completerestorationinchrist. … s-not.html
  24. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL? – Charles Pridgeon
    archive.org/stream/willgodsp … 3/mode/2up
  25. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
    concordant.org/expohtml/TheP … index.html
  26. GOD’S EONIAN PURPOSE
    gtft.org/Library/loudy/GodsE … pose00.htm - Adlai Loudy
  27. THE TRUE BASIS OF REDEMPTION – A.P. Adams
    tentmaker.org/articles/TrueB … Adams.html
  28. THREE TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
    auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
    tgulcm.tripod.com/cu/univart.html
    theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm

That’s a great testimony and a great list. Do you have other forums that you post on, Rodger?

Hi Dave
I post on Facebook several times every day and I also post on Tentmaker fairly regularly too.
Sometimes I also post on City Data Christian forum but there are also many URs there holding the fort. :slight_smile:

SOME PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON “I NEVER KNEW YOU”

“There is no better place than being in the hands of God.”
For a UR that is definitely true!
But for an ETer, probably not, because they might turn out to be one of these guys.

"Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils, and in Thy Name have done many wonderful works? And then I will profess unto them I never knew you. Depart from Me ye who work iniquity’ (Matt. 7:22,23).

We could probably add to those declarations that many, in astonishment, will also say, – “but my name should be right there in the book of life because I got myself saved in Your Name!”

They fully expect to go right into heaven based on what they had done in the Name of Jesus.
Instead, Jesus will cast them into the lake of fire which is the second death which will include kolasis aionion, which means age-during corrective chastisement.

It is God, not us, who decides who will or will not be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

If you cannot love an endless hell god

QUESTION TO ME BY A POSTER
“In your own words, please explain why you find it so important to ‘evangelize’ so zealously.
Thank you.”

Because many people are unable to love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into a state of inescapable everlasting suffering.

I’m 78 and the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
If necessary, copy and paste the following url into the address bar.
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

Infant Salvation
Believers in eternal torment are divided in their opinion about the fate of infants who die.
Some, who believe in God’s sovereign election of the “few”, also believe that non-elect babies who die will spend eternity suffering in hell. I have heard that John Calvin said, “There are babies a span long in hell”.
Others consider this unfair, and assert that infants who die will spend eternity in heavenly bliss. This of course is true, but not because the child is innocent. It’s true because the Scriptures teach that God intends to save everyone from everything that they need to be saved from.
A few years ago there was a story in a Montreal paper about an Ohio lady who drowned her baby in the bathtub. Her defense was that she loved the baby so much that she wanted to make sure that her child would not have to suffer forever in hell. After serving a sentence she remarried, had another child and drowned it for the same reason. She trusted that God would forgive her because her intention, though warped by false theology, was for the good of her children.
The jury decided that she was mentally ill, BUT WAS SHE? The simple pragmatic fact remains that if evangelicals are right, her two infants will spend eternity in heavenly bliss because she loved them so much that she insured, by killing them, that this will be so.
Apparently, believers in eternal torment believe that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die will spend eternity suffering in hell. They call this “the age of accountability”.
If I believed this nonsense I might take a gun into the largest maternity ward in Toronto and before the police arrived, kill every infant who had just been born. This would cause an enormous amount of suffering to the parents, but this wouldn’t matter much in the long run, because probably most of them (according to evangelical theology) are destined to suffer forever in hell anyway, so why not save their babies from the same fate?
Don’t try to argue that what I would be doing would be wrong *(Thou Shalt Not Kill). The fact remains that my act would, in fact insure the babies’ eternal salvation. If evangelicals right, then infanticide would certainly be one of the most effective ways of “saving souls”. Besides, God forgives murder, especially when it is done for such a noble, though misguided cause.
Sure, they would lock me away in an institution, but I would spend my life reveling in the glow of the emotional high of knowing that I had, beyond any shadow of a doubt (even in the mind of evangelicals) guaranteed the salvation of the babies that I had killed.
Folks, the actual truth about the matter is much more sane and blessed. The Scriptures teach that salvation is all of the Lord, and He will not fail to save everyone of us according to His own timing. No one will be able to boast in His presence and say “I have saved my self from eternal hell by exercising my faith in God’s provision.” God will get all of the glory for everyone’s salvation.
The important issue never should be “what is right or what is wrong”. The only really important issue is, “What is God going to do with the person who is wrong? !” The Scriptures teach that God will fit every one of us into His master-plan in a positive way, and He will use our temporary involvement with sin to teach us the lessons that He wants us to learn. As my 102 year old Dad often says, “That’s what makes Him God!”
(Afterthought) - If abortionists are, for all practical purposes, among the most effective “soul-savers” in the world, why do evangelicals get so upset with them?!

  • Believers in eternal torment kill each other in war for less worthy causes!

CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF “ETERNAL HELL”

tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

INSANITY

Does traditional Christianity cause insanity? Many seem to think so. This video is the story a pastor and his daughter of their journey from the traditional turn or burn gospel to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like it on Facebook and please send links to your family and friends.
Gary Amirault

youtube.com/watch?v=gDnZRms3XZE

Child Sacrifice in Christianity? Yep!! Watch:
Christian Molech Worship by Tentmaker Ministries:
youtube.com/watch?v=xKuhBdWbJXQ

IS GOD STRONG ENOUGH? – Kenneth Larson
“For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?- lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, saying that 'This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!’” Lk. 14:28-30. God’s perfect foundation is Christ Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:11; Is. 28:16; Lk. 20:17; Heb. 5:7-9. What God is building on His foundation is a perfect, reconciled creation. Ro. 8:20, 21; Col. 1:15-20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; Phil. 2:5-11.
God is strong enough to reconcile all, for He controls all hearts. Is. 26:12; 2 Chronicles 30:12; Rev. 17:17. God has a purpose- a will for creation. Eph. 1:9-11; 3:11. God “wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.” 1 Tim. 2:4. And “All that Yahweh delights He does, in the heavens and on earth, in the seas and every abyss” Ps. 135:6; see Is. 46:10 and John 1:29.

Christ will draw all to Himself. Jn. 12:32. Our stubbornness and unbelief are no match for Almighty God. Romans 11:32. “Not stronger than He are we!” 1 Cor. 10:22. God is a perfect Savior, and He is more than strong enough to save all. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Is. 53; Matt. 19:25, 26.

ITCHING EARS

Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have “itching ears” and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation.

ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in “hell” or be annihilated.

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

MYTHS - Kenneth Larsen

“…they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4

Scripture: “And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” Luke 6:32-35.
Myth: “God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever.”

Scripture: “For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Romans 8:20, 21.
Myth: “Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest.”

Scripture: “…Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him…” “Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.
Myth: “Seek God and you’ll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you’re lost, it will be your own fault.”

Scripture: “For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.” Romans 11:32
Myth: “It was Lucifer’s doing, and Adam’s. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins.”

Scripture: “and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.
Myth: “God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can’t do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they’re hopeless.”

J. Preston Eby

TESTIMONY OF RODGER TUTT
My wife Helen and I spent forty years of our lives distributing Christian literature. We are in our seventies now. The following testimony video by J. Preston Eby is an example of the power of literature. One critic thinks that Preston should have let the book burn up that his dad threw into the fire. But as a result of reading that book instead of letting it burn up, Preston later wrote the following expositional series based on his further studies of the Bible.
TESTIMONY VIDEO OF J. PRESTON EBY
youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs&feature=sub

See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
or
tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/

John 3:16
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
"Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas." (end quote)

“What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?”
tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

WHAT THESE VERSES MEAN

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Shall not be in a state of being lost (apollumi), but shall have life during the ages which collectively come to an end. Heb. 9:26.

And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
They will lose it for the eons but will find it again when the eons collectively end Heb. 9:26

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Instead of being forgiven, they will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are age-during, not eternal.

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will restore all destroyed souls when death is abolished. 1 Cor. 15:20-28

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.
Believers have life pertaining to the ages which collectively come to an end. Christ rejecters will receive kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) Matt 25:46.

Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
Both in terms of duration and intensity God will administer just the right amount of kolasis aionios to everyone who needs it. Matt. 25:46.