The Evangelical Universalist Forum

God does not create, commit, or allow evil!

I like all this interesting, thoughtful discussion!

**“…It says…” that the Lord creates evil. Isaiah says. Was Isaiah correct about this? ** Or possibly, did he occasionally, in ignorance, confuse God and Satan? We must read the Scriptures by the Spirit of Christ, through the lens of love.

The Bible says. Is the entire Bible “the Word of God”? Or instead, is the Bible only part of a progressive revelation that quotes, and points to, THE Word of God?

If I showed you a beautiful banana, and asked what it was, you would say “banana.” But if I peeled the banana, and held up the edible fruit in one hand, and the banana skin in the other, perhaps you might now identify them separately as “banana,” and “banana peel.” One is merely the container for the other. And while we certainly appreciate the packaging (the Bible), we only eat the fruit (The Word of God).

The Bible indicates that JESUS is the Word of God. (For example, John 1, Revelation 19:13.) Yet we all know Jesus is not a book. To see this distinction between Jesus and the Bible better, here is a good essay by Richard Murray, called Is "The Logos-Word of God” The Bible?

I like to describe the Scriptures as only part of a never-ending, progressive revelation of the goodness of God, in Christ.

Here is an explanation of what is meant by progressive revelation from another thread:

Blessings.

We got into this discussion before (in other threads here), about “God creating evil” - in the bible and language. I just need to dust off the Calvinist theologian (AKA CARM), Matt Slick’s answer at:

Does God create evil?

**The consensus among Christian theologians and linguists, would side with Matt - on does God create evil in Isaiah. ** :exclamation:

For example, in:

Did God Create Evil and Sin?

Or this article, from the Christian Courier at:

Did God Create Evil?

Thank you, Hermano, for sharing your thoughts.

I agree with the progressive-revelation concept. Like Richard Murray, I think that the ancient Hebrew concept of Satan, was that he was an agent of Yahweh, and so that Satan had committing an act was considered to be tantamount to Yahweh committing the act

I must say that I was greatly surprised that Richard Murray should say this. For example, “the word of God” (Logos tou theou) in the book of Acts does not refer to “Jesus’ divine presence” or to “the Spirit of Christ” but rather the expression refers to the gospel (good news):

Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.
Acts 6:2 And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.
Acts 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Acts 12:24 But the word of God increased and multiplied.
Acts 13:5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them.
Acts 13:7 He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Acts 17:13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds.
Acts 18:11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Well hush my mouth, HFPZ, but little old me is not buying the common position laid out by Matt Slick and others. Their explanation may be “tried,” but (if your read my above comment links, you will see why) I don’t think it’s “true.”

-“God” morally uses the devil as His attack dog, so that He won’t technically get His hands dirty?
-“God” sends calamity and disaster, death, disease, and destruction, to “help” people?
-A “merciful” God casts most people into a hell that the “experts” agree is a never-ending torture-chamber?
-“Evangelism” should be a coercive marketing tool to sell fire insurance?

I refuse to redefine “love” to accommodate the more popular explanations of Matt Slick, or any other theologian.

Blessings.

Yes, it’s a common “solution” to God creating evil according to Isaiah 45:7 to use the translation “calamity” rather than “evil.” Many people seem to think this gets God off the hook, since creating calamity isn’t nearly as bad as creating moral evil. But isn’t it evil to create calamity. If a human being deliberately creates calamity for others, he will be jailed if found out.

However, Whether it’s calamity or whether it’s what’s usually thought of as moral evil—creating it is morally wrong. Richard Murray’s solution is far more satisfactory. That it is Satan that creates this evil (whichever kind it is), but it is attributed by Isaiah to God since the Hebraic view at the time was that Satan was an agent of God who could do only what God allowed him to do, so one might as well say that God did it.

Paidion, again I have to disagree. Adam and Eve decided to follow the words of a liar and deceiver instead of the word of God. Even in maturity, we should not do this. It would be breaking the first commandment, that we should not put any other gods before God. From what I understand the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents what man says is good and evil rather than what God says. It is a case of man choosing to be his own authority.

Actually, there are different alternatives to ECT - that are accepted today:

Metaphorical view of hell
Exile - where folks torture each other - not God
Annihilation
P-Zombie - where folks become sub-human (Rev. N.T. Wright)
Universalism

When we reject what history gives us, via creeds and common consensus, then any number of equally compelling, Biblical exegesis emerge:

Christian Science (everything is ideas and evil and matter don’t exist)
God pulls the strings and there are is no free will
Etc.

Actually, from a standpoint of pure brilliance…Mary Baker Eddy’s Christian Science spin of scripture, is more compelling to me…then some of the versions, presented on this forum. :laughing:

I think Mary Baker Eddy does express love brilliantly, in her exegesis. And it’s more compelling to me, then what you are presenting (i.e. if I ignore historical creeds and common consensus). :wink:

And don’t forget my own original, Biblical exegesis, I presented here at P-Zombies and Universalism :smiley:

http://www.thebackpew.com/uploads/4/2/4/9/42493387/5993352_orig.jpg

Ok, about creeds , common consensus- two quotes, one short, one longer

  1. This is a short excerpt from a GREAT essay:

"My aversion to human creeds as bonds of Christian union, as conditions of Christian fellowship, as means of fastening chains on men’s minds, constantly gains strength.

My first objection to them is, that they separate us from Jesus Christ. To whom am I to go for my knowledge of the Christian religion but to the Great Teacher, to the Son of God, to him in whom the fulness of the Divinity dwelt? This is my great privilege as a Christian, that I may sit at the feet not of a human but divine Master, that I may repair to him in whom truth lived and spoke without a mixture of error, who was eminently the wisdom of God and the light of the world. And shall man dare to interpose between me and my heavenly guide and Saviour, and prescribe to me the articles of my Christian faith? What is the state of mind in which I shall best learn the truth? It is that in which I forsake all other teachers for Christ, in which my mind is brought nearest to him; it is that in which I lay myself I open most entirely to the impressions of his mind. Let me go to Jesus with a human voice sounding in my ears, and telling me what I must hear from the Great Teacher, and how can I listen to him in singleness of heart? All Protestant sects, indeed, tell the learner to listen to Jesus Christ: but most of them shout around him their own articles so vehemently and imperiously. that the voice of the heavenly Master is well nigh drowned. He is told to listen to Christ, but told that he will be damned if he receives any lessons but such as are taught in the creed. He is told that Christ’s word is alone infallible but that unless it is received as interpreted by fallible men, he will be excluded from the communion of Christians. This is what shocks me in the creed-maker. He interposes himself between me and my Saviour. He dares not trust me alone with Jesus. He dares not leave me to the word of God. This I cannot endure. The nearest possible communication with the mind of Christ is my great privilege as a Christian. I must learn Christ’s truth from Christ himself, as he speaks in the records of his life and in the men whom he trained up and supernaturally prepared to be his witnesses to the world. On what ground I ask, do the creed-makers demand as sent to their articles as condition of church membership or salvation? What has conferred on them infallibility? “Show me your proofs,” I say to them, "of Christ speaking in you. Work some miracle. Utter some prophecy. Show me something divine in you, which other men do not possess. Is it possible that you are unaided men like myself, having no more right to interpret the New Testament than myself. and that you yet exalt your interpretations as infallible standards of truth. and the necessary conditions of salvation? "

2.From ‘God in Search of Man’ by A.J. Heschel. Wonderful book -

Murray’s so-called exegetic quote below… what an abortive load of tripe, “IMO” of course. This is EXACTLY what I mean by “prevalent gymnastics” — or let me restate that in full…

That understanding when applied carte blanch leads to all manner of prevalent gymnastics to have God NOT doing “evil”, where in fact certain texts plainly say otherwise.:astonished:

Hermano, with all due respect to you… the inspired (by God) Isaiah was neither ignorant nor confused! You may as well apply Murray’s concocted blancmange he calls “exegesis” (cough) and magically massage it into ANY so-called “troubling passage” i.e., one that upsets the gut of any sacred cow. I feel I could use any number of other choice words here… but I’m not sure I’m getting the “impulse” quite right. :unamused:

blancmange!! Just for using the word, you get:

Dave, without creeds how does one avoid theological and moral chaos? Is there any one thing, and I mean anything, that all self-described Christians believe in? (Remember, some “Christians” do not believe in the existence of God!)

And it’s not just doctrinal disagreement. There is also moral disagreement. Is there any moral statement, even one, that all self-described Christians believe in? Some think abortion is fine, others recognize it as murder. Some think that forbidding remarriage is monstrous, others think that permitting it is monstrous. Some are anarchists, some are statists (of every stripe imaginable). Some are pacifists, some are war-mongers. Some are capitalists, some believe that property is theft. Etc.

Given the above, does the word “Christian” not lose any meaning? If a total stranger tells me that he is a Christian, I have no idea what he believes (or even if he believes in the existence of God), and I have no idea if he holds to moral theories that I recognize as Satanic.

Is there anything to be gained by a “unity” that amounts to nothing other than, ‘We all like to use the word “Christian” to describe ourselves’?

I knew that very question would be asked, G. How do you answer the points that were brought up?

Edit: let me withdraw that question. You are an eloquent spokesman for the EOx church, so at best we will be trading viewpoints back and forth until the Second Coming. :smiley: What I quoted in my post is where I stand.

Since DaveB doesn’t like creeds…and P-Zombies and Zombies are not mentioned in them…I can “cut lose” with my P-Zombies and Universalism Biblical exegesis.

And even dedicate a Zombie love song - to it :exclamation: :laughing:

And can you sing along, DaveB and Hermano - to this “church hymn” :question:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=YCVMuevcCvY

Starting to dislike the zombies here! But they are a great way to derail a discussion; maybe I need to put a few in my back pocket. :laughing:

Actually, Dave, the Zombies and P-Zombies, don’t “derail a discussion”…But they put it, into its “proper perspective”. :laughing:

I stand - actually I’m sitting - corrected!!

Hermano, with all due respect to you… the inspired (by God) Isaiah was neither ignorant nor confused! You may as well apply Murray’s concocted blancmange he calls “exegesis” (cough) and magically massage it into ANY so-called “troubling passage” i.e., one that upsets the gut of any sacred cow. I feel I could use any number of other choice words here… but I’m not sure I’m getting the “impulse” quite right. :unamused:

I’m not against this concept but there are problems. First is that if you didn’t know in advance that Satan s/b blamed for any bad stuff in the OT,
you would never come to this conclusion from the scriptures themselves. You have to overlay a HUGE presupposition first and apply it over dozens & maybe hundreds of verses. Secondly, where is Jesus in all this? It’s not only that Moses and the Prophets don’t know but Jesus apparently doesn’t know.

Steve… you are right about prepositions and conclusions.

Long story short… the ONE word in Hebrew translated “evil” is… < רָ֑ע > = ra’ — this ONE Hebrew word is variously translated by the TWO Greek synonyms <πονηρός> ponēros and <κακός> kakos. Thus all THREE are EQUIVALENT in their basic meaning. Again, no matter where these two Greek synonyms appear they both account for the one Hebrew word < רָ֑ע > = ra’.

Thus whether such be rendered evil / bad / wickedness / calamity / trouble / strife etc, where such is attributable to Yahweh in terms of bringing chastisement or retribution, such is the case, no matter how much it might offend certain sensitivities.

It should be noted

Where God is the subject of the verb < רָ֑ע > = ra’ his infliction of pain (evil) on people is not due to viciousness; it is the just judgment of sinners who do not respond to his call for repentance. In the Old Testament, God is not depicted as committing an immoral act when He does < רָ֑ע > = ra’ to the wicked. (adapted from ‘Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament’ Harris, Arch, Waltke. p. 855)

Dave, I Like it! :slight_smile: I actually found it to be quite a strange coincidence that you should post this, as I happened to be thinking along these same lines earlier. I believe this is the problem that Adam and Eve were confronted with in the Garden of Eden, the truth according to God(the tree of life) and the truth according to man(the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). In other words, it was the spiritual wisdom of God vs. the carnal knowledge of man telling us the difference between good and evil, right and wrong.