The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Well, you have published some material about the different ideas about salvation :smiley: So I think it could be beneficial if you would briefly expound on those different ideas. :smiley: If possible. :neutral_face:

My idea is not to put you on the spot , but to maybe expose a different way of looking at this subject :blush:

I’ll go on to post this link:pantelism.com/redemption/redemption.html

Good stuff :smiley:

Eusebius, In your post, you say that the soul becomes nothing again. One cannot create something out of nothing. All that God has created comes from Himself. So I would say that the Spirit God gave to Adam, or mankind, would be His own Spirit.

qaz, I tend to agree with Davo on the point that we mustn’t read into Scripture something that is not there. I believe only God and the people that have already left this earth, know what happens in the afterlife. In reference to your question to Davo about the sin leading to death, my guess would be that we need to hit rock bottom sometimes in order to come to our senses. For example, if one is persistently sinning, forgiveness has no effect on them. Receiving the full consequences of their sin may be the best thing for them.

How so??

I should imagine it’s pretty obvious IF one considers that USUSALLY pardon is associated with “forgiveness” THEN John would likely being saying don’t think you can use “forgiveness” to excuse away certain consequences of certain actions… can you not see that??

You mean God is actually going to do something against people’s so-called free will? :smiley:

Just remember, fellow Christians :exclamation: No matter how bad things seem :exclamation: Never give up that ship :exclamation: :laughing:

and

youtube.com/watch?v=yKkazr8M-n4

I think I’d rather believe in Christ and rest on what He has accomplished for us. He is greater than any obstacle.

I think both are true. If I understand TV evangelist Joel Osteen right. What is inside of us, I interpret as the Holy Spirit. All that we are, is really the result of God - via Christ. And we need to honor, the image of God within us. :smiley:

Actually, he’s just taking the same Old Testament and New Testament stories and giving them a different beat. :laughing:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=uS2nWLz-AbE

Nice thoughts but they aren’t in the Bible. I agree with you (shocking, I know :slight_smile: ) that what we are is the result of God.
Sure we should strive to be good people and helpful to others. But Joel is just a name it claim it preacher. I think the apostle Paul would be considered a failure under his paradigm. I think Joel just wants more of his sheeple to go out and get more money so he can get it from them. Neither Christ nor Paul would build a huge mansion like he lives in.
The gospel isn’t about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It is about “if you are poor, don’t aspire to be rich.” That’s what Paul said. Paul says when one aspires to be rich they fall into a trial and trap swamping men in destruction.

Here is one of his houses in Florida:

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/attachments/f79/478610d1428003807-joel-osteens-home-joel-osteen-home-jpg

Eusebius, from your post above, I get the feeling that you have something against man being able to accomplish things. As Psalms 8:4-6 says, “What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that you visit him? For you have made him a little lower than the angels, And you have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet.” Man is made of the substance of God, that is His Spirit. What else can we be made of? According to you, our spirits come from nothing. I suppose God created us out of thin air? Yes, we are able to accomplish great things because as HFPZ quoted above, “there is something inside of you that is greater than any obstacle.” To better understand the Scriptures, we must understand the terms being used. Christ means " the anointed one" and from what I understand, the “anointed one” is anyone who obeys and follows the Spirit of God that is inside the heart and mind. In this case there are many who are “Christ”, and they have done many a great work. But, we must also come to “Christ” as an individual in order to carry on the work. In other words, each of us must learn to stand on our own two feet and walk with God as well.

On another note, there is nothing wrong with having money as long as our riches come about through honest hard work. There are many examples in the Bible of men of great wealth, including Abraham, Joseph, David etc. In the picture that you show of the man’s mansion, I would say that many people were paid to build it. So, in this, jobs were created and families were fed as a result.

I think the property gospel, where you get richer by giving to the preacher - is a false gospel.

But minister Larry Ollison, is not about giving to the preacher. And he does quote verses, like:

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZ2bmSmFV3YgddTVELBaKroQ6JvYfAtYN12GcU-B_TYd6isLQ_

Of course, A.E. Knoch (and other ministers), will have a different understanding - regarding these verses. And Larry Ollison does accept donations - like all Internet, TV and radio evangelists. But you don’t have to give to his ministry, to enjoy benefits - in the here and now :laughing:

Being rich is not necessarily a curse or obstacle. It depends on what one does, with the money (i.e. helping the poor, Christian outreach, etc.). And your attachment to money and this world. After all, we did have rich Jewish leaders, in the Old testament. And a rich Christian, who helped with Christ’s burial (if I remember correctly).

How much of Donald Trump’s money, goes to Christian outreach and/or charity concerns :question: :laughing:

Donald Trump doesn’t concern me. He is not a minister.
If 2 Corinthians 8:9, which you quote above, is about Christ making believers millionaires by becoming poor, we’d all be financially rich.
Paul talks about “the nation’s riches” which are not financial riches but rather spiritual riches.

Yes, and rightly so that A.E. Knoch would have a different understanding which is more scriptural.

Here are the verses in Paul’s epistles concerning riches:

Rom_2:4 Or are you despising the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, being ignorant that the kindness of God is leading you to repentance?
Rom_9:23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -"
Rom_11:12 Now if their offense is the world’s riches and their discomfiture the nations’ riches, how much rather that which fills them!"
Rom_11:33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"
2Co_8:2 for, in a test of much affliction, the superabundance of their joy and the corresponding depth of their poverty superabounds to the riches of their generosity,
Eph_1:7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
Eph_1:18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
Eph_2:7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
Eph_3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
Eph_3:16 that He may be giving you, in accord with
the riches of His glory,
to be made staunch with power, through His spirit, in the man within,
Php_4:19 Now my God shall be filling your every need in accord with** His riches in glory in Christ Jesus**.
Col_1:27 to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is: Christ among you, the expectation of glory"
Col_2:2 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all** the riches of the assurance of understanding**, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father, of Christ,
1Ti_6:17 Those who are rich in the current eon be charging not to be haughty, nor yet to rely on the dubiousness of riches, but on God, Who is tendering us all things richly for our enjoyment;"

Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains. In this sense, I would take the riches of Christ over all the financial riches of the world.

Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :laughing:

Heck, one man I admire - is Ben Hart. He’s a direct response copywriter and marketer - now retired. And a devote Christian. And former Presidential speech writer. But he had talent for direct response copywriting. And made millions in royalties. If God gives someone a talent, should they not use it? Or should the Christian, just bury the talent or talents :question:

1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."

In Ben’s case - sited above. Money is not his main goal. He did what he did, because:

He liked doing it.
He was good at it.

But if he can make a lot of money at it. Or God’s gifts a lot of money. Should we decline it? It’s a side benefit. Like I shared before.

Anyway, I know about Ben’s Christian background. Since I was a member of his online marketing training - when he was active. Here is a full background at benhartmarketing.com/about-ben-hart.htm

I believe the root of all evil is man’s heart and it’s desire for other gods, be it money, fame, power over others, sex, drugs, etc.

1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."

The apostle Paul says the root of all evils is the fondness for money. I think I’ll just trust the inspired word.

Of course if God gives someone a talent they should use it. But Paul told us that if we are poor we should not try to get riches because when one does that they are tried on all sides and causes one to be swamped in destruction. I have a friend who is extremely wealthy and who is Christian. His dad had a successful business and gave each child of his an equal share when he sold the business. My friend was good at investing and grew his money. But that is just the gift God have his dad and him. Sure, I’d like to have a few million bucks. But I am far richer in Christ than Bill Gates. Bill, if he is not in Christ is the pauper, not me.

I think the wisest counsel ever given - regarding both material things and gifts of the spirit - is this: :smiley:

But I don’t think Joel Osteen misses the boat - all that much. The most important element, is to be Christian and believe in Christ. Then expect good things from God, as his child. It’s Joel Osteen - as I understand him - in a nutshell :exclamation: :smiley:

http://gapingvoid.com/content/uploads/assets/Moveable_Type/archives/zzzzazzdggg15.jpg

This is from the Sunil Bali blog:

As I get older I have come to believe in the hearafter.
Yep, I walk into a room and wonder, “What am I hear after?”