The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Suicide and Christian Universalism

Brother, I will not take my life as it is a presciouse gift given to me to know Him more. Because of all your prayers, my wife and I are still together and are building our relationship with God and our own marriage as well. Thank you all again for your prayers. May God be with you all always.

I am new here and have not introduced myself before this thread. I am Phillip in AZ and have been a lost prodigal for years trying to find my way back. I find CU to be hopeful compered to my believe right/work behave past. I just lost my mind at about 26 and am now in lifes darkest times at a56. I am daily suicidal from 2 back surgeries and 24/7 pain, recently lost my Mom/only relative, alone, and lost career. I just don’t want to be here at least in a human way anymore . I am only here now because I am afraid of hell if I take my life. I try to focus on loving God but my brain only feels this pain in my soul and body. I would rather be in the light of God. I don’t know how long I can hang on. appetite is going, caring for daily needs gets harder, lost friends, no physical activity (2 years ago I swam, danced, biked, worked etc, all gone now). I don’t sleep and pills are my primary supplements. Anyway, I hope if I go that God, because of his death on the cross will remember what pain was like and that even he could not endure it for too long. I have been at this 2 .5 years now and am almost done. Drs now are recommending a 3rd procedure to correct the last botch job the MD did. what a mess. I am so tired of people who say we don’t have a right to choose when we go. It seems God/life/nature can choose to beat us up all it wants but if we choose to leave then “we” are the ones with the problem. A lot like the idea of when good things happen we are blessed by god but when bad happens its “nature” or “just the way it is”, or my favorite “it is what it is”. Thanks for listening.

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Sorry to hear about your problems, Priegel. I should note that this is an old thread where the originator of the thread asked for all his or her posts to be deleted (or manually did so), and consequently there are parts missing for context.

I suppose in a way that’s an analogy for suicide, too: parts will be missing in the life of other people for context. :slight_smile:

I’m not as hard against suicide or even euthanasia as some other people are, but I’m very sensitive to people thinking I (or the forum or universalists generally) am giving people permission to commit suicide or otherwise persuading them to do so. So let me be clear: I’m not doing that.

But as long as they aren’t dodging out of personal responsibilities in this life by doing so, neither do I condemn other people for doing so. I know pain drives people crazy and can easily erode our will to live.

But what we need is more life, not more death, in our lives. I hope you’ll strive for that instead and keep doing so.

Phillip, welcome.

About 20 years ago I spent several hours over the course of several days in the company of a Jewish pain-management physician. (I wish I could remember his name.) In other words, his medical specialty is managing pain. He was quite angry at the state of pain management in the United States. He said he couldn’t count the number of poor sufferers that he encountered who had gone through months or even years of unnecessary suffering–all because of the incompetence of the ones supposedly caring for them. He said that in all his years of practice he had never, not even once, encountered a case that he couldn’t fix. Every single one of his patients either had his pain eliminated or reduced to an amount for which the patient said, “I can live a happy and meaningful life with this amount of pain.” He said the spectre of unmanageable pain is a tale told by incompetents in the medical field or by people eager to kill.

Let me hasten to add that this physician did not present himself as some sort of miracle-worker or as some sort of fringe figure with knowledge and techniques known only to him. No. He said that any properly-trained pain-management physician can get any pain under control. The problem is that most hospitals do not think it is very important to manage pain. Doing so is way down on their list of priorities. The “pain management” that sufferers receive is conducted by someone who has not specialized in the field, but rather took a single one-semester class in medical school 15 years ago in order to fill-up his required credit hours. These Dr. Bozos then incompetently treat pain, and then say or imply that that’s as good as modern medicine gets.

My physician acquaintance further emphasized that (wonder of wonders!) people with untreated pain tend to get depressed and suicidal. He got so angry with those voices who say that the answer to these suffering, depressed, and suicidal people is to kill them. (“Those are my patients they’re wanting to kill!”) No. The answer is to get their pain under control, which typically ends the depression and suicidal thoughts. (And in those minority of cases in which depression and suicidal thoughts persist, competent counselling [not capital punishment] is indicated.)

Since my physician acquaintance spent years studying pain management and further years managing pain, I can only accept what he says on authority. Who would better know about pain management than someone who has spent a lifetime studying it and applying it?

I write all of this to give you heart. If you are in unmanaged pain, then you are in the care of incompetents. You have not reached the limit of modern medicine. You have instead met the Peter Principle personified. I hope and pray you can get the care you need from a competent pain management specialist.

Nice post, Geoffrey

You know what’s interesting about pain management and modern medicine? When my 92.5 year old mom was in a coma, the doctors didn’t prescribe the latest pain medications. They prescribed morphine, And its history in medicine, is probably more than a 100 years old. It’s tried, but true.

Meanwhile, some folks find help with pain via acupuncture - which is hundreds of years old. Or the more modern and controversial, US medical cannabis movement. Done under a physician’s direction and legal at the state level.

The point is that doctors and modern medicine, don’t have all the answers. Or you might have to seek various physicians, in order to find one that has the right answer.

Meanwhile, here’s the Protestant site Got Questions answer at:

If a Christian commits suicide, is he/she still saved?

thank you for your posts. I am under “pain management” but it is patches and pills, I have screws in my back and they may need to be removed but I have no real guarantees it will work. I am tired, spent , insane almost with it all over the last years. I have seeked and sought but I sense no guidance from God in all of this. From my apostate years I really am not sure about who I am in God except that i believe in his existence but have no idea how he helps us when we really screw ourselves up by our own decisions. this one has taken my life away and I may finally really take it because it is all really becoming unbearable. The loss of friends, job and purpose, bodily strength, love, the isolation is all human depravation to a point I didn’t think existed except in POW camps. The body is a cage/cell contained within the prison of the home. I have to decide soon whether to go ahead with this surgery or not. Waiting on a fusion to fuse when the hardware is not real strong is the man issue. Docs agree that the old screws need to be removed and stronger ones with rods put in. they disagree as to when , 2 say now, 2 others say wait 3-6 months but I don’t know if I can. I have meds and other means to end it, mine would not be case of a moment of insanity but a clear choice to leave the body to get out of the painful cage, the way a raped child would run away from home to get away from the monster dad. My spine has been raped and I let it happen. and in the same way a child that has had that happen and knows they are permanently changed and damaged so am I. The aching and stabbing is torment. I actually kind of know what ECT feels like now in an earthly way. choices that led to this causing permanent unreversible damage and pain, knowing you allowed it and it can’t be taken back. I can’t imagine an eternal spiritual version of this. I can only pray that Gods mercy triumphs over judgement as I feel I have paid in my body for my choices and that Christ has suffered for and with me in this and that the Father accepts the Sons sacrifice and intercessions for me no matter what. I am human and am being broken in body mind and spirit. Alone and without love in my life it is just too sad to bear. We tend to think of heaven and hell as places we go according to what we believe and do (or not). When I believe it is about just being with and knowing God, knowing and getting nearer to Him, that is the heaven. At this point i can’t think of anywhere Id rather be. I am so afraid of facing life this way, Living more years like this with no reprieve. It is not sane or humane for us to do so. We put down pets for less and consider it kindness. I am also afraid of facing God for such an act. I know I have value to the world but it is slowly being eroded away as I become less able to give it, pain erodes the value of a life in every way, just as time and the elements erode valuable things that are naked to them, finally they end up worthless, skeletons of what they once were. I see this in me every time I look at myself. Its good to be here, framing my issues in a spiritual way. My fire right now is purifying me, how much I can endure before burning up we shall see. Love to all Phil.

Thanks Jason, to be as clear as you, I am not looking for any such permission or support from the forum for such an act. We are each responsible to God and others for our actions . I only am hoping for open dialogue and online companionship as I go thru this horrible period of my life. this is in a way easier as no one in the forum has to see me , the anonymity is a blessing in a weird way. Only I know what Im experiencing so only I can make these ugly choices. If the discussion gets to uncomfortable then I will not be hurt or offended if my posts are not approved. but I know that others are facing similar issues, so maybe someone else will be helped. If the thread is removed I would understand, Thanks again. Phil

I don’t think there will be any problem about post-approval (and we haven’t deleted this thread yet, although a prior member deleted his or her start to the thread and some discussion).

Relatedly, though: all new members are sent by the forum engine to a spamcatcher for their first three or four or five posts, as a standard operating procedure. An admin or mod checks the spamcatcher on a semi-regular basis (I try to do so once a day, but sometimes miss especially on the weekends), and regardless of the topic as long as the new member seems to be something other than a philosophical zombie (i.e. an internet bot :wink: ) or a live spammer, then we let them through. After enough posts the system will start letting the new member through automatically henceforth.

It’s just a way to keep out bots or people trying to sell shoes or essays or warcraft gold (haven’t seen one of those in a while).

Jason said:

That’s very good council, and I pray the same. Thanks Jason :smiley:

I think about this everyday, and have for the last three years. I have chronic fatigue due to sleeping problems (diagnosed as such anyway). I lost my job and find it incredibly hard to do anything. I used feel really good, though my life wasn’t stellar. I could live with that though. Now it’s just fatigue, day in and out. The line between doing it and not doing it is really just a line. If I stop wearing my seat-belt because the thought of doing things to preserve my life are obscene to me, then that is a form of suicide. Jesus said that if you hate your brother then you are as guilty of killing him in cold blood as if you really did it. But what of one who hates his own life? Isn’t he then guilty of suicide?

I’ve already done the deed; my body is waiting to catch up.

G’day Andre… if you haven’t done so already it could help for you to chat with someone on a 24hr freecall ‘suicide helpline’… IOW get some help/support around you.

No-one has magic answers to feeling better for when you’re feeling crap, BUT talking stuff out (as opposed to hanging onto it and ruminating) with someone with a caring listing ear can do the world of good in helping to lower levels of dangerous or potentially dangerous perturbation.

You owe it to yourself mate!

Suicide help lines are worthless. Plus there’s the added bonus of maybe having cops making a visit*. My trouble is my ailment; if I would wake up everyday, or even most days feeling rested, I would be remarkably undepressed. Contrary to what our optimistic culture teaches, some things are hopless; some things can’t be fixed. And sometimes suicide is the only option.

*I did call a hotline once and she threatened to send cops.

Suicide help lines, are staffed by volunteers. Most volunteers are not professionals. They only talk to folks and guide them to resources. Professionals are licensed medical professionals, therapists, psychologists, and clergy members. That’s whom to consult for answers.

Although from my world view…answers can be found via homeopaths, that are also licensed, medical doctors…and the appropriate spiritual healers or spiritual healing groups, if you can find them.

I’ve been through the doctors thing; psychologists and the like can’t help me. There is nothing wrong with me psychologically, in fact there is everything right with me. If I was to awaken feeling rested I would be remarkably undepressed. I’m not different from people who live with chronic pain. Quality of life matters, and the quality of mine is awful due to a illness that came on literally overnight. I don’t subscribe either to the idea that suffering is a virtue, none of that Viktor Frankl nonsense. I’m tired of being tired everday; nothing in this world is worth the trouble.

I went through a period of my life, where I was searching for something deeper. So I did three avenues of exploration - over the years:

Let me see what academia has to offer, by taking a bunch of philosophy, literature, creative writing, psychology and theology courses
Let’s see what I can experience experimentally, by hanging out with the Native Americans, Buddhists, Sufis, Folks from the East, and healers
Let me learn the fruits of homeopathy, by studying with the “experts”

I still have my Christian worldview, which taps into Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic mystical theology, within an Anglican framework.

Now I’m happy I took that lifetime, exploratory journey. Even if now, I find that Holy Fools, P-Zombies, Zombies, Geeks and Nerds, offer me more in company and companionship, than most of humanity :exclamation: :laughing:


All I want out of life is either to wake up rested or its end.

I found today’s Catholic refection from Richard Rohr Meditation: Worldview of Abundance - fascinating. Perhaps it might be useful (i.e. see https://cac.org/)?:

I don’t believe that. God is welcome to prove it to me though.

Much in life is NOT God proving things to us. But us testing the waters - in faith - to see if things are true or not. I’ll share here, what I shared with friends and relatives. Regarding a personal healing journey, I have been going through.

One thing I have learned, is the importance of ceremony. It’s actually more important than healers, traditional medical doctors and tests, and alternative modalities (homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine).

It’s not just any ceremony. But those that are authentic, genuine, and passed down through the generations. Like:

The healing masses of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
the spiritual ceremonies, of the Native Americans
The Vedic file ceremonies

The ceremonies can add, the element of prayer. And call on the spirits (in Native American ceremonies), and the saints (in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, healing masses).

And this is perhaps why…the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know…Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

And some folks do use both traditional ceremonies, passed down through the ages. And also do newer ceremonies. Like I have friends, who are Roman Catholic. Some practice the Japanese ceremony of Johrei. Others practice the healing meditation ceremony, of the Bruno Groening circle of friends. And Black Elk and Fools Crow, have been medicine men, holy people and Roman Catholics

And this is perhaps why…the Roman Catholic priest, with the gift of healing and hearing God speak - that I know…Has a great success rate. His healing is done after the performance, of a healing mass. A ceremony handed down, since the time of Christ (or shortly thereafter).

Each week, I preform Medicine Man, Russell Four Eagles, grandma’s fire ceremony. And the pipe ceremony, that I have learned from:

Lakota 2 Feathers Medicine Clan and Duke Big Feather
Ute medicine man Joseph Many Horses

Yes, I have seen the:

traditional medical doctors, and worked with the pills, exams and medical tests.  And I am taking their acid reducer pill
I have seen the homeopathic doctor and am taking his homeopathic remedies
I am taking the Ayurvedic tonic Chwawanprash and the Tulsi leaf tea.
I have taken the herbal teas, given by the medicine man, Russell 4 Eagles.

I don’t mind if folks want to give modern medicine the benefit - for example. Even though in the US, the World Health Organization has rated us around #32 - for Quality. With Singapore around #1 and most European countries surpassing us.

If I were to use healers, here are my favorites:

soaringeagleswellness.com/
freehealing.org/
markearlix.com/

And these groups:

harryedwardshealingsanctuary.org.uk/
bruno-groening.org/en

Actually, traditional medicine, spiritual healing, complimentary healing modalities (i.e. homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese medicine), prayer and ceremonies, work on different aspects or levels.

And I know these healers and healing organizations well.

So pick what you wish, to give credit to. I really don’t mind. And you can thank either the:

Medical specialist, making perhaps a million a year
The homeopath with 3 unpublished homeopathic volumes, of several hundred pages
The Two Fathers Medicine Clan, Medicine Man Joseph Many Horses, Spiritual leader Joseph Big Feather and medicine man Russell Four eagles

Take your pick. You can read about Chyawanprash at bit.ly/2rMzPTz.

Yesterday, I invited my female cousin and her husband to lunch. They are surprised that i am coming out of this crisis - relatively untouched. And they only believe in traditional medicine. I probably have them scratching their heads a bit. Trying to explain my healing progress, in the Newtonian framework of traditional medicine.

Randy, I don’t mean to pry - oh for heaven’s sake, of course I DO mean to pry :blush: - have you shared or will you share what your (very interesting) healing journey is about?
Sorry if I missed the post(s) where you’ve already explained this.