The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Asking if causality exists is like asking if air exists. The entire universe is built on cause and effect. Something caused you to write your response. It was not a causeless response. You didn’t just write a response due to no cause whatsoever.

Suppose we don’t go by supposes and just stick with facts?

I don’t really like dealing with make-believe scenarios. Either something is or it isn’t. We are all the products of cause. Something caused your mother and father to get together and produce you. You didn’t come about due to something causeless.

If our will is free than humanity is not responsible since nothing caused them to do what they do.
If our will is not free than humanity is not responsible since their wills were caused to do what they had to do and they could not do otherwise.
In both cases above, mankind is not responsible in the ultimate sense.
Sure we have relative responsibilities such as taking care of our children. But even then our wills/choices are made by a greater force than to not take care of them.

What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification

I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not “make-believe scenarios”.

Okay, thank you.

Oooops! :open_mouth: :blush: :unamused:

Of course humanity has FREEWILL… we just don’t all get to taste of it equally as we would like, BUT it is FREEWILL nonetheless, i.e., another’s (free) will may be stronger than ours… no one trumps God’s FREEWILL.

There are certain laws in place that impinge on man’s freewill, however to the degree that man’s freewill can triumph over said laws man’s freewill will, up until whatever enables man’s freewill to defy said laws, and thus the greater standing law prevails.

Eusebius… I know you don’t like “make-believe scenarios” apparently, although when convenient you use them yourself; but man for example, by his freewill can choose to defy the law of gravity and will do so up the point he can maintain that which causes him do to so. However, that ability unlike the law of gravity is not limitless and in the end will triumph over the act of man’s freewill.

God has given humanity FREEWILL within the bounds of His choosing… to the degree man moves within those pre-set boundaries he has FREEWILL. When my children were small they had freewill to move wherever they so freely chose in my back yard… they did not have the same freewill beyond the markers I set. IF they of the OWN FREEWILL chose to defy said boundaries certain consequences could come into play.

Given that no one is an auto-bot it is only natural and normal for one/some to push the bounds and limits and experience said consequences… it’s the NATURE of God-given freewill, which to varying degrees can be exercised.

The most obvious answer I can give to that… “what does the evidence suggest?” :mrgreen:

If to sin is to miss the mark, then it is true that men sin, regardless of whether they have free will, or not.

If men do not have free will, then there are other forces and or wills at work causing them to do what they do, just as with animals and trees.

God made Nebuchadnezzar like a beast of the field for seven years till He restored him to sanity.

Re the last sentence above, i’d say if you tried to get a demon possessed person to respond as you wish, you may have extreme
difficulties or even complete failure.

I think perhaps we all have the feeling (or illusion) that we have free will.

What is an illusion? The impression that as we look out over an ocean or miles of farmlands in the country that the earth is flat?
Or as we observe the sun it appears to be moving & the earth standing still?

Freewill is an illusion if the inerrant inspired Scriptures say it is.

That’s the funniest post I’ve read on this site! :laughing:

Martin Zender offers some Scriptures that he sees as refuting free will:

martinzender.com/Zenderature … _creed.htm

Logic would suggest this could be a reasonable assumption… what have you concluded from this?

Zender makes the all too oft mistake, yourself included, of universalising what can be attributable and thus limited to certain specifics.

Denying free will is like denying the existence of humanity.

Humanity itself is founded on the ability to choose.

I know you were addressing someone else, but I will respond as if it were addressed to me.
Yes, there was a cause of my written response. I, myself, was the cause. You might claim that your statements were the cause. But that is not the case. I could have refrained from responding to your statements. And that is free will—the ability to choose between alternatives.

Re Q1, there are a multitude of possible variables re causes of behaviour in biblical deterministic theory, if one wants to break it down in detail.
More generally you have the will of man/will of the flesh, the workings of demonic or evil spirits, environmental influences, heredity, the presence of holy angels, the power and word of God, His Son, the Holy Spirit, etc.

Re Q2, this is a question for an Omnipotent Being & those He confides in who are, if any, on a need to know basis, not human beings. Though i
question that any of these would have any interest in such scientific data.

Re Q3/4 see Q2…Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable – who doth know it? I Jehovah do search the heart,(Jer.17:9-10a)

More from Martin Zender on free will:

"Live as if It All Depends on You
Q: To what extent is our free will? God chooses us and gives us belief. Do we make any choices at all? When I used to wup my brother on the basketball court, was that talent and free will?

A: There is no such thing as free will. Nobody makes any decision at any time that is not ultimately dictated by God.

Now, forget I just said that and live your life. Live as if you have all the free will in the world. This is how God wants us to live. We are to live like we have control, but we are to believe the truth that we have no control. The two are not mutually exclusive. One is the relative perspective (our day-to-day life as we relate with other people and ourselves), and the other is the absolute perspective. The relative is not absolutely true. Only the absolute is absolutely true. And the absolute is: we have no free will in anything. Nothing. Zip.

The talent that caused you to wup your brother in basketball was a gift of God. Everything you have and do is a gift of God. God GAVE all these things to you, and He continues to give them. As Paul writes, “What do we have that we have not obtained?” You have not originated anything, but have merely obtained it. "

martinzender.com/QA.htm

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Coffees (pl) for me, thanks! Low fat milk, hold the sugar & extra caffeine. Cheers.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (Eph. 2:1)

Zombie, this verse refers to those who were living yet dead, i.e. the living dead, zombies ;

“living dead. living dead - Dictionary definition and meaning for word living dead. (noun) a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force. Synonyms : zombi , zombie.”

Yep that’s exactly what it is… a complete no-brainer!

And that is why free will is confined, IMO, to the temporal since the cross, being one who believes in actual redemption. When we leave this temporal body, I have a suspicion that every knee will bow and tongue confess.

I still like the ice cube and the sun :laughing:

Hi Paidion,
I would say denying will is like denying the existence of humanity.
We all have will. The Bible says so. However the bible never says it is free. It does say it is the will of the flesh.

Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Eph_2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),

I don’t know if you see it or not but in John 1:13 it shows that no one can be begotten by the will of the flesh or will of man. So how is man free to will to be begotten by God?

Yes and what a travesty its choices have been. “All avoid Him.” “Together they were useless.” Why would all avoid Him? Because the Bible says the flesh is enmity to God and cannot please God. So the will of man is not free to please God and is not free to be friendly with God. God has to overwhelm our will with His will to change our will. Get it?

That is oversimplistic to state “I myself, was the cause.” The force to try to correct my idea was greater than your desire to just let it go. So there was a force which acted upon you which caused you to respond. Nothing is causeless. We often say to someone “You couldn’t just let it go, could you?!” Well, actually that is true due to the forces acting upon them.

Will is not an illusion. we see it every day. People have the illusion they are free. But we are not free from causality. Everyone chooses. The question is “Why?” Why does one person quit smoking while another continues and goes to the grave with cancer? Because the one who quit had a force bearing down on him to quit due to the threat of cancer while the other enjoyed smoking greater or was addicted greater than the threat of getting cancer. But in both cases the choice was not a free will choice.

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Many believe that thoughts and feelings shape reality:

The Health and Prosperity movement (i.e.Joel Osteen)
Eastern thought
Christian Science and New Thought movement (i.e. Emmet Fox, Joel Goldsmith)
The visions of certain mystics - even Christian - like Tiffany snow
Positive thinking (i.e. Norman Vincent Peale)
Appeal to a particular saint
Scientific prayer
Etc

It’s easy to use the scientific method and test the waters for yourself. So no matter what the variables (heredity, environment) and how they determine my destiny, if I can influence (or bring into existence) - a particular outcome. Like:

A healing of particular disease
A financial healing
A child to a childless couple
etc

, I have an element of free will. Now we have to attribute all this, to the grace of God. But I am still making an effort - to invoke that grace.

Of course, after sharing this, if folks wish to believe they are helpless, subject to all kinds of deterministic variables, etc. without testing the waters for themselves - so be it. Rest assured, I will not stop you. :laughing:

Or Take my Protestant Christian mom - now deceased at 92.5 - having the lifelong gift of prophesy. She never “advertised”, “charged money”, nor “sold tickets”, but she was always right. And she told me as a Boy Scout teenager, to take an umbrella to a parade. None of the weather TV or radio services forecast rain. And I got ribbed by fellow scouts. Until there was a downpour, in the middle of the parade. And I was the only one - with an umbrella. No matter what the deterministic variables were, she saw the final outcome, and warned me about it. I believed her and took an umbrella (while not believing the scientific weather experts). How does her gift of prophesy, fit into a deterministic model? Was I avoiding determinism, by bringing an umbrella?

Suppose you asked God for wisdom, like he requests you do in scripture. And it develops into a full blown intuition, which is always right. Or you are born with the gift - like my mom was. If you follow it and avoid an unpleasantness outcome, is that circumventing determinism?

There are theologians and Christian philosophers, who use scripture to argue for both determinism and free will. It shows nothing, but the problems and issues in Sola Scriptura.

Here’s an interesting experiment in psychology at There’s No Such Thing as Free Will:

Let’s repeat the conclusions, of the experiments. Drum roll, please :exclamation: :laughing: