The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

I don’t believe in the myth of free will. I believe man has a will but it is not free from the dictates of the flesh. It is in fact called the will of the flesh. The flesh is not free to please God.

Ah, the fallacy of argumentum ad populum: If all believe it, it must be true fallacy.
If free will is true, if it is free from causality, then no amount of pleading will cause mankind to come to God to be saved.
God is not very appealing to mankind at all. That is why God is the Saviour and we the saved. Have you not read “all avoid Him”? That is because the flesh is enmity to God and cannot please God (Rom.8) and man’s will is the will of the flesh. Therefore man’s will is not free.

Maybe God is trying to get you to see the fallacy of it? :smiley:

1 Like

Maybe you should because in so doing you would side with the Bible as well?

If free will is an illusion, will everyone make the right choice in handling moral dilemmas (like in this video)?? Why or why not?

I see the entire history of mankind at odds with God’s will even after the cross. After the cross the Israelites clashed with the holy spirit and willed not to come to Christ. But in so doing they fulfilled His intention that they rebel.

No one ever has withstood God’s intention. That is what Romans 9 see also 9:19, is all about. In going against His will they fulfill His intention.
God’s intention is seen in Isaiah’s day that
"Mat 13:14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying,
‘"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding,
And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving.
Mat 13:15 For stoutened is the heart of this people,
And with their ears heavily they hear,
And with their eyes they squint,
Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes,
And with their ears should be hearing,
And with their heart may be understanding,
And should be turning about,
And I shall be healing them.’

Christ reiterated Isaiah’s curse as did Paul to the Israelites. How free is that? How free were the Israelites to not come under that curse? They were in bondage. They were locked up in unpersuadableness (Romans 11:32). It is not until God unlocks them that they will be free to believe.

Michael Williams should have quoted at least one verse to back up his thesis. Since one was not given, I perceive it is just his philosophy.

2 Likes

Since free will is not so, why must everyone make the right choice in handling moral dilemmas since the flesh is at enmity to God?

1 Like

When will they make the right choice regarding moral dilemmas? At the end of time? What does your stance on universalism say (after all, Christ died for all)? Why doesn’t God intervene, to help them make the right choice?

No choice is causeless. No will is uncaused.

Once all mankind see the love of God and love of Christ in all they did to save mankind, I believe it is then that that love overwhelms the will of humanity and they see their Saviour for Who He is.

What caused Saul to become Paul on the road to Damascus? Did Christ say to Saul “Won’t you pretty please believe in Me? Oh pretty please with a cherry on top?” No. What was Paul’s summation of the event?

“Grateful am I to Him Who invigorates me, Christ Jesus, our Lord, for He deems me faithful, assigning me a service, I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief.” Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I." But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian." (1Ti 1:12-16)

Something had to overwhelm Saul to make him Paul per the above.

I also believe that mankind’s will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don’t believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.

1 Like

How is mankind able to do this (“are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption”), if free will is an illusion? When will this take place? How will this take place? Forgive the questions. It’s my way of trying to understand, these complex ideas. :exclamation: :slight_smile:

Sorry HFPZ but it is possible I don’t understand your question:
What do you mean “how is mankind able to do this”? Do what? How are they able to be vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption? That is impossible with man. Mankind cannot will that to happen. Mankind cannot choose it to occur. It is only when God wills it to occur that it occurs.

It is nice that even if we may disagree that we are civil and loving and patient, right?

1 Like

Ok. Let’s get back to basic questions. My take on universal positions is this. I don’t try to argue that a universal position (or a particular variant) is wrong. I try to understand, where the presenter is coming from. Or play Devil’s Advocate and ask them how they might respond, to a conventional position and/or criticism. ** Nothing more. Nothing less.** As far as other areas go, I might get involved in the discussion and even take a side. Here’s some basic questions - forget the previous one (“how is mankind able to do this”). Let me know if you don’t understand them:

When will mankind’s final universal reconciliation take place?
How will mankind’s final universal reconciliation take place?
How do you know free will is an illusion and you don’t have it?
How can I or you know (perceive with certainty) anything at all?
How do you know that you even exist and you are not part of someone’s dream?

Eusebius’ reply: What must occur is what will occur due to God’s will in the matter.

Dandelion continues:

Eusebius’ reply:
All mankind have already died with Him. God already put the old humanity to death in the death of Christ. Mankind did not make a free will choice to be crucified with Christ and entombed with Him. God had to do it Himself.

Dandelion continues:

Eusebius’ reply:
I’m sorry dear Dandelion but I do not see God’s sovereignty verses free will in the above which you bring up. If all mankind are won by love, then the love was greater than our will not to love Him and therefore His will was that His love overwhelm us and therefore our will was not free to be able to fight off His love to be won over to Him.

Dandelion continues:

Eusebius’ reply:
But the prodigal son was dead [to God] and it was not until he was made alive [to God] that he came to the Father. In the parable the father said upon receiving his son “This my son was dead yet now he lives.” So it really depends upon God making Israel alive again to Him. Their will will not allow such a thing to occur. Only when God wills it to occur will it occur.

Dandelion continues:

We are all slaves to Sin and enslaved to sin and death. That is what much of Paul’s epistle to the Romans is about and what God has done to undo that for humanity. Until then, mankind is enslaved.

Dandelion continues:

Eusebius’ reply:
Yes, but only by God giving us the place of a son, not by us willing it to be so.

1 Like

Eusebius wrote:

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:

Eusebius:

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie stated:

Eusebius:
Once all creation is brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8:21). God must will this to occur, not humanity. And just before 8:21 it says the creation did not volunteer (free will) to be subjected to vanity but God willed it to be so. And one day God will free all creation according to His will and choice per 8:21.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:

Eusebius: Once they put on immortality and incorruption.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:

Eusebius:
We all have wills. We know for a fact our choices are not uncaused. Therefore we know our wills are not free from causality.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie How can I or you know (perceive with certainty) anything at all?[/list]
Eusebius:
Maybe it should be asked: How can we believe anything God says with certainty?

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:

Eusebius:
I’m sure if we were it would be part of God’s revelation to humanity.

Let’s focus on that last point. And let’s just stick with the Protestant canon of scripture. Many universalists here have differ spins and understanding of scripture. Same goes true for those in mainline churches, seminaries and broadcast media. How do we know who is correct and who is not? How do you know your understanding is right and everyone else misses the boat (despite their education, ancient Greek and Hebrew language expertise, training in theology, claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.)?

Can I also get your **definition **of will? Is it what I leave to family, relatives and charitable concerts - drafted by a lawyer? :smiley:

If free will is an illusion, is God - in Einstein’s words,

So if I was born to Donald Trump, Mr. Putin, Kim Jong-un, some Middle Eastern family or into Povery in India - this is God’s will? Why? What purpose is served? All of this is “causality” - right?. I can become a spoiled rich kid (i.e. Trump), a Russian tyrant (i.e. Putin), an atheist (Kim Jong-un), a Muslim (where I can be killed, if I wish to become Christian) or born into an Indian untouchable class (where I am scorned by society). And nothing I do can change this - right?

Now the novelist Ayn Rand, lives in Russian - during the cold war. She graduates from a Russian university and visits the US - under the guise of visiting relatives. She wants to become a famous writer. She eventually goes on to write Hollywood screenplays - in perfect English. She then goes on to write the famous novels **the Fountainhead **and Atlas Shrugged. Since free will doesn’t exist, how did she fulfill her lifelong ambition?

https://cdn.andertoons.com/img/toons/cartoon5949.png

First of all my dear fellow, you floated this freewill/sovereignty idea. I happened to be reading that particular part of Michaels book. Providence perhaps? Or maybe a mathematical probability? :laughing:

Point being, I quoted him cause the idea was interesting. As to your claim of validity being questionable with out a bible verse, I can only say for the most part that a singular proof text rarely is sufficient to make a cohesive argument.

Any time we offer an opinion about biblical understanding, it is just that… An opinion. There aren’t tens of thousands of denominations out there for nothing :smiley:

Just my humble opinion.

.

The early Christian writers from the beginning believed in free will (which means simply “the ability to choose”)

They chose men. Their will to chose those particular men did not arise from “the flesh”.

Unless we coöperate with the grace of God by choosing to work together with Him, any grace of God received will be in vain—will not deliver us from wrongdoing.

Good question. Education, Greek/Hebrew expertise/ theological training etc. is no assurance of knowing the truth or being able to give it out.
There are so many sects out there, even within Universalist groups, how is one to know who is correct and who is not? If one’s theological construct does not contradict another, that is a good start. For instance, my one brother got degreed via a couple well-known Bible colleges. Yet some of his theology contradicts other parts of Biblical theology. For instance, he can’t believe “God will have all mankind to be saved” because he uses as his major premise the idea that “hell” is eternal.
I come from a large family of 15 altogether. Only one, my twin brother, believes God will save all. Some of the Catholics in the family have a hard time believing in eternal hell. The Protestants seem to relish it. So I have to deal with major sets of theological underpinnings. Just this morning I explained to my youngest brother that he and my degreed brother hold to the Jehovah’s Witnesses take on 1 Timothy 2:4-6 that it comes down to just “all sorts of men.” He blew it off like I said nothing. My Catholics brothers and sisters are easier to talk to. How can any of them know I have the truth or how can I know if they have the truth in any given matter of the Scriptures? I believe it is possible to know the truth and that that truth can set one free. Pilate asked Christ “What is truth?” Christ didn’t go into a well through out response. He just stood there. He was letting Pilate know “You are looking at it.”
So that is a beginning of how one can know if a scriptural matter is true or not. Does it contradict other scriptures?

Will: form a decision, choice or purpose. Idiomatically “want” or “would.” (As will is also used to indicate the future, and as it cannot stand before an infinitive, and “willing” denotes compliance, the rendering of “will” must be highly idiomatic.) (Keyword Concordance in the Concordant Literal New Testament).

Will is not an illusion. We see mankind exercise their will every day. But that will is not free from causality. Einstein actually said God does not play dice with the universe. In other words, the universe is under His control. Nothing in His universe is by chance according to Einstein.

For instance, suppose one is addicted to cigarettes. He enjoys smoking. He sees a commercial on the effects of smoking. Due to that commercial he quits smoking. Was his choice free? No. The threat of bad things happening to him due to smoking were greater than his enjoyment of smoking. So he did not make a free will choice to quit. He was forced to quit by a greater force than the enjoyment of smoking.

1 Like

Back to my full examples (look at the highlighted questions). Yes, I’m familiar with Albert and he did use not before my quote.

If will is not free, is God - in Einstein’s words (referring to other scientists and philosophers),

[list]***So if I was born to Donald Trump, Mr. Putin, Kim Jong-un, some Middle Eastern family or into Povery in India - this is God’s will? *** Why? **What purpose is served? **All of this is “causality” - right?. I can become a spoiled rich kid (i.e. Trump), a Russian tyrant (i.e. Putin), an atheist (Kim Jong-un), a Muslim (where I can be killed, if I wish to become Christian) or born into an Indian untouchable class (where I am scorned by society). ***And nothing I do can change this - right? ***[/list:u]

Now the novelist Ayn Rand, lives in Russian - during the cold war. She graduates from a Russian university and visits the US - under the guise of visiting relatives. She wants to become a famous writer. She eventually goes on to write Hollywood screenplays - in perfect English (with no help from anyone). She then goes on to write the famous novels **the Fountainhead **and Atlas Shrugged. [list] **Since free will doesn’t exist, how did she fulfill her lifelong ambition? **
][/list:u]

But the Holy Spirit caused them to choose whom they would. Just like the choosing of Matthias due to Judas hanging himself, the lot fell on Matthias because God chose him to replace Judas. It may seem like a roll of the dice but “the lot is cast into the lap but the whole disposing thereof is of Yahweh.”

The only way one cooperates with the grace of God is if God gives the grace in the first place to be cooperative. Nothing is uncaused. God is the great cause.

Hi Paidion,
We all make choices. But no choice is uncaused. Therefore no choice is free in the greatest sense of the word.
I can find verses in the Bible which counter these quotes above. “God chose us before the disruption of the world.” “All who are set for life eonian believe.” “It is not of him who is willing nor of him who is racing but of God the Merciful.” “not begotten by the will of the flesh nor the will of man but by [the will of] God.”

I think the Bible is of much more importance and should be what we fall back on for truth rather than the fallible men you quoted, would you not say?

1 Like

Are the above scriptures just teasing us in a deceitful way and we really are not free to choose or respond?

Their choice was not free from cause. If they chose not to do the law they would be destroyed. If they did covenant with God to do the law, they were then under the curse of the law. Either way, God was going to prove to them they could not do the law. So no matter how much they CHOOSE this day Whom they will serve, their choice could not help them actually serve the Lord. And in fact Joshua told them right afterward that they cannot serve the Lord!

They may have chosen life but that is not what they got. They came under the curse of the law. Paul said the law is death chiseled in stone. Their choice to have life was voided by coming under the law. Their choice could not get them what they wanted therefore their choice was null.

First of all one needs to know that the above verses, including Revelation 3:20 are not given with the idea that mankind has a free will to choose to come to God or Christ. Rather they should be read with the understanding that should one open the door to Christ that they were chosen by God to do such. Boasting is excluded. Why? Because it is God Who saves. “What have you got but what you’ve received and why boast as if not receiving it?”

We all make choices. The question though is: are they free from causality? What causes someone to choose A over B? Something has to. The choice is not free. It is caused.

2 Likes