The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is Evil What We Would Expect From a Perfect God?

You did it right this time, Steve. The only thing that you did wrong before was to put your non-quoted text BETWEEN the quote tags. Only the quoted text belongs between the tags. It’s hard to show you for this reason: If the tags are used correctly, they won’t be visible on the published post. I’m going to show you using curly brackets { } but the brackets you need to use are NOT the curly brackets. You need to use the square brackets ].

{quote}Four score and seven years ago{/quote}

The above shows the beginning tag {quote} and the ending tag {/quote}

If you type the code for yourself, be sure to use the BACKslash (the one on the ? key) and not the forward slash. Let me know how this works for you. :slight_smile:

“To say that God’s goodness may be different in kind from man’s goodness, what is it but saying, with a slight change of phraseology,
that God may possibly not be good?” ~John Stuart Mill

But isn’t God’s goodness the same as ours yet different in certain ways. God wiped out or to put it differently “killed” mankind except for a few with the flood, yet we accept the explanation for the flood.
The explanation for the flood sounds rational yet evil immediately returned.

There are those among us -not saying anyone right here now - that believe all the evils and the synonyms thereof that I listed ARE in fact, ‘caused’ by God, either by direct causation or indirectly just by the fact of creating a universe where they are possible.
To quote a famous person, not a chance in hell that I’ll ever agree to that. :smiley:

But I know that we are on the same side, that is, confounded by the fact of evil. We are in good company with some of the best minds ever, who have never come up with a solution that pleases everyone.

I am also confounded by evil. Yet despite the fact God only told Adam that in the day he ate the fruit he would die, God also added curses to the punishment. Curses that affect 50 billion people who came after Adam, people who had nothing to do with what Adam did, people who didn’t choose Adam as their representative.
I’m simply trying to say that we like to blame Adam for all the ills of mankind, we like to distance God from anything we perceive as negative but realistically God is large and in charge and responsible for everything IMHO. Some of God’s purposes really are a mystery.

Evil being a mystery is one thing; but laying all the miseries of humanity - and tears enough to fill the oceans - on God just cannot be the answer. IMO we have to keep looking for a better solution.
Here’s a reductio ad absurdum , of sorts : “Yes, I brutally raped the young girl, but if God had not created the world, I would not have been able to do it. In the end, it’s God’s fault.”
Should God be punished? Should He apologize to us? That would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I’m just trying to follow out the reasoning here. I’m in the same boat as everyone else in trying to get a handle on things.

“Yes, I brutally raped the young girl, but if God had not created the world, I would not have been able to do it. In the end, it’s God’s fault.”
Should God be punished? Should He apologize to us? That would seem to be the logical conclusion.
I’m just trying to follow out the reasoning here. I’m in the same boat as everyone else in trying to get a handle on things.

But God did more then create the world, He cursed the land and mankind with thorns and thistles for Adam’s sin. I don’t know what the thorns and thistles precisely mean but they don’t sound fun. However my attitude about God is that He owes us nothing , we owe him our lives and if we don’t like it we can checkout anytime.
I trust that God loves us and wants the best for us but i think we tend to see Him in one extreme or the other. Either is so holy he can’t look upon or tolerate sin so he must send sinners to eternal hell, or He is so loving that He would never do anything to harm us and any evil or sin is entirely mans fault.
Probably the truth is lying where it’s usually found.

But WAS it a curse? I’m not actually certain of that . . . .

Let’s say that your daughter (if you have one) having come of age, decides to move in with a boy you know to be a lifestyle liar, who will not look for a job and who on the few occasions when he’s had one, has been inconsistent in showing up for work and disrespectful to the boss, is in addition, misogynistic, domineering, and needy, tends to stay out all night and sleep all day, and has never taken care of himself in his life. What a nightmare!

You say to her, knowing that you cannot forbid her choice and that she is determined and will not be talked out of it, "You will work for him and he will spend all the money you make. He’ll pawn all your possessions of any value and you will have to pay them off, only so that he can pawn them again. You’ll have his babies, do all the work to care for them, continue in your unskilled employment, but you won’t be able to trust him to watch the kids while you’re at work. You’ll never have a house and probably never even have a rental trailer; every time your car breaks down it will be a major catastrophe. You’ll always be on food stamps, always on medicaid, and this state of affairs will go on for as long as he is with you. Eventually there will be too many children and he will leave you alone with them at last, and you will be inexpressibly grateful that he did.

Now in saying this, have you just pronounced a curse on your daughter? No, of course not. You love your daughter and your heart is broken at the prospect of what life is going to be like for her (and you) because of her foolish decisions. You’re just telling her what to expect.

That’s the way I see the “curse” in the garden. I’m not saying I’m right, but it’s something to think about.

it seems prudent as well, to move from the clearest and fullest revelation, to the unclear or uncertain.

For instance:
In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets;
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son,
whom he appointed the heir of all things,
through whom also he created the world.
3 He reflects the glory of God

THIS is what God is like - I think it is saying - look at Jesus Christ. He is the clearest expression of what God is like - clearer than anything written in the old testament, clearer than even prophetic statements - He has been put on display for some to have seen and handled, and pass along that experience and knowledge to us.
Again - look, I’m a struggler too, I could be wrong - but I do think that if we start anywhere else but with Jesus Christ, we’re gonna get God wrong in some way.

Great point, Dave B. It is impossible to START with Jesus and end up with eternal torment. If we interpret all judgment verses–including Christ’s own words–in light of Christ’s character, then the only possible conclusion is that mercy will triumph over judgment. Otherwise we make a mockery out almost everything Christ represented.

That’s an interesting take on that; I think you’re on to something there, Cindy. That would also seem to fit the language God uses there. “The ground is cursed because of you”, not; “I am cursing the ground because you disobeyed me”.

This is interesting on a number of levels, because it demonstrates cause and effect consequences for actions; Which also reminds me of Galatians 6:7-9
(NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Thanks, Melchi! :slight_smile: – yes – sowing and reaping is just what I was trying to get at. We sowed to the wind; we’re reaping the whirlwind. :frowning: But Father knows how to turn even that into good. :slight_smile:

Thanks, Melchi! :slight_smile: – yes – sowing and reaping is just what I was trying to get at. We sowed to the wind; we’re reaping the whirlwind.

Cindy,
Good thought and interesting way of looking at the curses as the law of consequences. But who made the laws , who made the whirlwind, who made the consequences?
God made everything, God knew what would happen and meant it to happen. God could have forgave Adam or at least not passed on his sin and it’s consequences to his 50 billion relatives.
But the bible says it’s a needful thing because “knowing good and evil they have become like us.” We need to experience everything and our brains are wired to learn best through experience. Perhaps this is the main reason for us to live through this “present evil age.”

I think we could have learned by obeying Him, and I’m not sure it was set in stone, that we would do this or do that. The way I see this is that God gave “Adam” the opportunity (maybe a whole series of opportunities) and finally, when He could see it wasn’t going to go any other way (without His imposing on our free will more than He wanted to do), He said “Okay then – let’s see how that works out for you.”

It seems that there’s quite a bit of mystery about what really went on in the A&E story. I think the representative human figure Adam was immature, and the reason behind man’s failure was in his trying to go about becoming like God in the wrong way. I do think God knew what would likely happen, which is why he already had the plan for rectifying the situation in place before it happened. I’m unsure whether it was inevitable, but I suspect it was in some fashion.

LOVE the new avatar. Melchie. :smiley:

And yes, I think that sums up my opinion (fwiw) on the situation.

Yes; “Tim the Enchanter”. Since my name actually is Tim, some of my friends who are Monty Python fans have given me that nickname. :laughing:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Hello Steve.

I agree with you and think this is a good point.

I once wrote a reply to three atheists arguing about evil.

I would be glad to learn your thoughts on that.

Hello Steve.

I agree with you and think this is a good point.

Hi Lotharson,
There are a lot of Steve’s here so were you talking to me? I would appreciate being called Steve7 as half the time i don’t know which Steve is which. :smiley:

I am afraid I was talking to Steve C.

But don’t be depressed: you are a great man too :wink:

I am afraid I was talking to Steve C.

But don’t be depressed: you are a great man too :wink:

I’ll try to get over it, somehow. :astonished: