On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Neil » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:44 am

pilgrim wrote:Yet again a very gracious reply Chad and I appreciate it. I do consider you as my brother in Christ and I chuckled at your drowning man. Me too!!
As for those times when it makes sense to go against the bulk of scholastic thought I also agree that there are many times when we might (and perhaps should) do this. But as for dating some source material, that is a very technical skill and requires substantial knowledge and training.
Just as it would be silly of me to side with the one 'expert' who declares that he has a more efficient way of creating nuclear fusion which will solve all our energy needs, because I am not learned in that field, who am I to disagree with the consensus of nuclear scientists? Now, if the debate were on how to interpret a particular prophecy (eg the parousia), then I fully agree that, with considerable background reading etc, both you and I are competent enough to form an opinion and to stick with that opinion regardless of whether it is a minority view.
I think the foundation for my disbelief in preterism is because I just cannot accept that the events around 70CE came anywhere close to fulfilling most of the parousia prophecies. We disagree on this and that is fine.
I was happy to take another look at all the relevant texts (which I did and posted my conclusions) and it was only then that I noticed the comment in John's epistle and thought about the scholars views of the dating of that material. One thing I would emphasise is that I would take a little more note of those scholars who are disinterested in the date of his epistle(s). Others may well be more inclined to introduce bias.
So, I will repeat, that my position just happens to be tenable regardless of an early date, the preterist position is not. For this, apparently, my honesty and integrity have been repeatedly called into question. I can only think this is a defensive emotion from a brother and such emotions usually derive from some sort of fear of the alternative. Thankfully not by your good self.

P.S. I have no idea whether Robinson is a preterist or not but I will assume not. However, he is not a 'disinterested scholar'. He wrote a book proposing that a lack of comment re the destruction of the temple would imply that the writings were before that event. No doubt his intentions were good as he was arguing against those German scholars (Bultmann, higher criticism etc??) who were giving extremely late dates for all the NT books and so were robbing the NT of any historical accuracy. But even I, as a layman, can legitimately claim Robinson's argument to be weak if there exist many early christian writings from the church fathers, which were indisputably written post 70CE and yet do not mention the destruction of the temple. Now, it is obvious that Robinson would want his book to be considered credible and for that, he would have considerable interest in dismissing arguments for a later dating of the Johannine epistle.
God bless.

be nice if all the horrors in Rev were already fulfilled..and this world wont have to go thru anymore..I;m not convinced tho..I sure hope so...dont want to think about any more terrible suffering on this poor earth..been way too much already (even as we speak, look at Syria for example ).
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:18 pm

Hi Neil, it is in many an opinion that:
If you look at revelation (and all of the cryptic prophesies of Christ) from a fulfilled eschatology view, all the bad stuff that is talked about in revelation is done and gone! The judgment on Israel is complete and the reconciliation with the Father is complete. It has all to do with the nation of Israel and the coming of the new covenant. We do not need to look for some great calamity, for that is not good news.

Look it up, it is kind of cool!

Just a thought.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:11 pm

Like some of you, it was Preterism, in my case Partial Preterism, what brought me to UR. I would like to know the opinion of those who know more about preterism and universalism than I do concerning their interpretation of 2 Bible verses:

1 Corinthians 3: The epistle was written to Gentiles, does the judgment stated in the chapter have to do with AD 70 Judgment or to a broad universal judgment that even had to do with the gentile nations?

1 Corinthians 11 has life or death consequences, How do you interpret that within God's judgment for AD 70 and Jerusalem?.

Thanks for your interest in my question.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Ricky_13 wrote:Like some of you, it was Preterism, in my case Partial Preterism, what brought me to UR. I would like to know the opinion of those who know more about preterism and universalism than I do concerning their interpretation of 2 Bible verses:

1 Corinthians 3: The epistle was written to Gentiles, does the judgment stated in the chapter have to do with AD 70 Judgment or to a broad universal judgment that even had to do with the gentile nations?

1 Corinthians 11 has life or death consequences, How do you interpret that within God's judgment for AD 70 and Jerusalem?.

Thanks for your interest in my question.


That's Davo, Ricky. He's really the residentual expert. But I believe he lives in Australia (where my Christian Science practitioner friend lives). So he might not answer until tomorrow - time zone difference, you know. And he hasn't eaten his Vegemite yet - an Australian delicacy. :!: :lol:
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:26 pm

Ok, no problem. please pass davo the message so he may give me his answer. I have no hermeneutical answer to this question and I would really like to learn. Thanks.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:28 pm

Ricky_13 wrote:Ok, no problem. please pass davo the message so he may give me his answer. I have no hermeneutical answer to this question and I would really like to learn. Thanks.


Can someone confirm I did the right thing - in the next sentence :?:

Let me try this, with the tag element: @davo

But rest assured, if the forum thread has the word Preterism in it... I can say with 90+ percent certainty, he will read it. :lol:
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:30 pm

G’day Ricky, welcome to the forum…

Ricky_13 wrote:1 Corinthians 3: The epistle was written to Gentiles, does the judgment stated in the chapter have to do with AD 70 Judgment or to a broad universal judgment that even had to do with the gentile nations?

There is a good degree of diverse opinion within the prêterist view on given matters, as there is for example among universalists etc, so I don’t speak directly (or indirectly) on behalf of prêterists; however to some degree I’ll give a pantelist’ (inclusive prêterist) perspective.

The ‘judgment’ of 1Cor 3 is seen as relative to the AD70 Parousia which encompassed the final end of the old covenant (AD66-70 age (world); Rev’s 3½yrs, 42mths etc, culmination with Jerusalem and in particular the Temple being awash with flames… aka “the lake of fire”, from which there would be NO resurrection in terms of the desolation of the old covenant age (world), WHICH is WHY the same was likewise describe by John as “the second death”… there was prophetic promise of resurrection from Israel’s first death i.e., her EXILE under Babylon, but in Christ ALL things were made anew aka “a new creation”.

It needs to be noted that Jewish insurgents were afoot throughout Palestine and certainly further afield to which Rome’s Legions were often and quickly dispatched to put down such uprisings and insurrections. “Christianity” in its very early days was considered nothing more than a Jewish sect and duly pursued due to its advocacy that “Jesus is LordNOT Caesar! Thus it was not unimaginable that the early church of far-flung Asia Minor with strong links to ‘Jerusalem’ still took to heart such threats as were laid against the birthplace of their movement.

To the ‘judgment’ itself… said judgment was particularly upon one’s “works” as opposed to just the particular individual; though there were tough times and one’s personal safety could easily be in peril. Again, in the NT “judgment” is most often associated with “works”. Jesus said…
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

According to Paul worthless works would entail loss, but whatever endured or was “lasting” (menei <μενεῖ>) into the coming new age would receive its due reward. Paul goes onto say that “and the fire will test each one’s work” which most likely has some bearing on Jesus “For everyone will be salted with fire” of Mk 9:49 – a reference not to universal postmortem burnings for all and sundry, but rather a reference to the fire of persecution that would through trial and tribulation test (refine) the followers of the Way…

Having one’s works “salted” or “tested” by “fire” had much more to do with antemortem realities, i.e., to do with *this life* than with postmortem calamities, and was very much limited to *believers* – true disciples in faithful service were a “living sacrifice” (Rom 12:1) who would be tried by the fires of persecution.

As the purifying agency of salt accompanied OT sacrifices (Lev 2:13) so too would the soon coming fires of trial and tribulation accompany and so test (refine/purify) NT believers…
1Pet 1:7; 4:12 …that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. … Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you.

This then as I understand it IS what Jesus meant by his…
For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt.

Again… the “everyone” according to the greater context being fully inclusive of the group in view, i.e., the believers of the day.

Ricky_13 wrote:1 Corinthians 11 has life or death consequences, How do you interpret that within God's judgment for AD 70 and Jerusalem?.

The “life or death consequences” I see as more relevant to that burgeoning church where certain selfish individuals were “not discerning the Lord’s body” (the church) and eating and drinking “in an unworthy manner” NOT considering the needs of others and so found themselves being “judged” aka “chastened by the Lord”. And so it would seem some may have ended up in a similar predicament much like Ananias and Sapphira.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:29 am

Thanks for the answer, it makes a lot of sense. Do you know where I can get the book: This Book will Change your Life. It was written by another pantelist. I believe it was in pdf format some time ago.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:47 am

Ricky_13 wrote:Thanks for the answer, it makes a lot of sense. Do you know where I can get the book: This Book will Change your Life. It was written by another pantelist. I believe it was in pdf format some time ago.


Who is the author, Ricky? If you type "this book will change your life pdf" into Google or Bing, you can get many sites offering a download. The book has the same title. But it is probably a very popular, self-help book. :!: :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:23 pm

Ricky_13 wrote:Do you know where I can get the book: This Book will Change your Life. It was written by another pantelist. I believe it was in pdf format some time ago.

Can’t say I’ve ever heard of any book specific to ‘pantelism’ in the offing, but that doesn’t mean anything. 8-) The pantelists I’ve been loosely involved with over the years have treated our view as somewhat fluid and progressive, but that’s not to say someone hasn’t collated something. I know I’ve discussed this position way more on forum sites than I actually have articles up on my own site. :mrgreen:
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:44 pm

davo wrote:
Ricky_13 wrote:Do you know where I can get the book: This Book will Change your Life. It was written by another pantelist. I believe it was in pdf format some time ago.

Can’t say I’ve ever heard of any book specific to ‘pantelism’ in the offing, but that doesn’t mean anything. 8-) The pantelists I’ve been loosely involved with over the years have treated our view as somewhat fluid and progressive, but that’s not to say someone hasn’t collated something. I know I’ve discussed this position way more on forum sites than I actually have articles up on my own site. :mrgreen:

I am clearing my throat... :!: :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:56 pm

maintenanceman wrote:I am clearing my throat... :!: :D


Like this :?: :lol:

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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:01 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
maintenanceman wrote:I am clearing my throat... :!: :D


Like this :?: :lol:



I like your post but unfortunately David knows where I stand. :lol:

Peace folks. :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:50 am

The title of the book actually is: This Book will Change your World, by Kevin Beck.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:17 am

Found the book, thanks!!!
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Paidion » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:54 pm

Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
(Matt 24:1,2 ESV)


This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that's the extent of my preterism!

The next sentence:
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”

I believe the disciples were asking him about two different matters:
1. When will these things be? (that is, the destruction of the temple)
and
2. What will be the sign of your coming and the close of the age? (A reference to the future second coming, and the close of this present age).

Like the Christians of the second century, I am what is now called "a historic pre-millenialist." They taught the second coming of Christ as an event future to themselves, long after 70 A.D.

Justin Martyr wrote:Since those who did that which is universally, naturally, and eternally good are pleasing to God, they shall be saved through this Christ in the resurrection equally with those righteous men who were before them, namely Noah, and Enoch, and Jacob, and whoever else there be, along with those who have known this Christ, Son of God, who was before the morning star and the moon, and submitted to become incarnate, and be born of this virgin of the family of David, in order that, by this dispensation, the serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself, those who believe in Him and live acceptably,—and be no more. (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 45 [near the end])


Irenæus wrote:For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Cæsar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ, and to hear His voice. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom. (Against Heresies, Book 4, Ch. 22, Sec 2)
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:23 pm

Paidion wrote:Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
(Matt 24:1,2 ESV)


This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that's the extent of my preterism!


My preterism is pretty unusual. I learned the rudiments of it from Eugenio Corsini's The Apocalypse: The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ and from N. T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God. Of course, any conclusions I draw from their premises are my own.

I believe that passage was fulfilled in A. D. 30. I do not think Jesus was talking about the architectural temple, but rather about His own body (John 2:19-21). In other words, that passage refers to Christ's death and resurrection.

I think the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse in all three Synoptic Gospels is how we understand the words "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" in Matthew 24:30. When we consult Daniel 7:13-14 we see that the Son of Man comes from the earth below up to the Father above, using the same language Christ used in Matthew 24:30. In other words, the coming of the Son of Man in the Olivet Discourse refers to Christ's ascension into Heaven in A. D. 30. The entirety of the Olivet Discourse, then, refers to events starting with Christ's earthly ministry and culminating in the descent of the Holy Spirit on the 120 on Pentecost in A. D. 30.

The only thing in the Bible that I believe is future to us is the Second Coming of Christ, and I believe this glorious, future event is mentioned only in Acts and in some of the Epistles.

When shall the Second Coming occur? Nobody knows, and nobody can ever have even the faintest inkling of a clue. We can't even date it to the nearest billion years.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:26 pm

Ricky_13 wrote:The title of the book actually is: This Book will Change your World, by Kevin Beck.

Ah yes Ricky, sorry my bad, bad memory (like 7yrs ago)… I realised I had Kevin’s book (in pdf) when I googled it and saw the cover on Amazon. Here it is for anyone to read. :)
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:28 pm

Paidion wrote:I am what is now called "a historic pre-millenialist."


Out of curiosity, what is your position on the Tribulation? My hunch is that you are a post-tribulationalist, but I could easily be wrong.

(My understanding of the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 is that it refers to Christ's Passion and Crucifixion.)
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:33 pm

davo wrote:
Ricky_13 wrote:The title of the book actually is: This Book will Change your World, by Kevin Beck.

Ah yes Ricky, sorry my bad, bad memory (like 7yrs ago)… I realised I had Kevin’s book (in pdf) when I googled it and saw the cover on Amazon. Here it is for anyone to read. :)


thanx :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:45 pm

Geoffrey wrote:I think the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse in all three Synoptic Gospels is how we understand the words "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" in Matthew 24:30. When we consult Daniel 7:13-14 we see that the Son of Man comes from the earth below up to the Father above, using the same language Christ used in Matthew 24:30. In other words, the coming of the Son of Man in the Olivet Discourse refers to Christ's ascension into Heaven in A. D. 30. The entirety of the Olivet Discourse, then, refers to events starting with Christ's earthly ministry and culminating in the descent of the Holy Spirit on the 120 on Pentecost in A. D. 30.

Full prêterism (or as a cheeky chap once quipped to me “fool-prêterism” :lol:) wouldn’t really argue with that BUT to say, THAT is fully inclusive within the event… ultimately culminating then with Christ’s AD70 Parousia “in the glory of the Father”. And thus “these things” (the Temple) and “the close of the age” (the Mosaic age/world, i.e., being ALL that the Temple stood for) WERE INDEED one and the SAME thing; there was NO schizophrenia happening here.

Anyway… check out that free e-book above as it makes a good argument, IMO.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:49 pm

Paidion wrote:This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that's the extent of my preterism!

Praise God Paidion… you’re on your way!! Never quibble at the day of small beginnings. :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:11 am

davo wrote:
Paidion wrote:This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that's the extent of my preterism!

Praise God Paidion… you’re on your way!! Never quibble at the day of small beginnings. :D


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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:14 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Paidion wrote:Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
(Matt 24:1,2 ESV)


This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that's the extent of my preterism!


My preterism is pretty unusual. I learned the rudiments of it from Eugenio Corsini's The Apocalypse: The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ and from N. T. Wright's Jesus and the Victory of God. Of course, any conclusions I draw from their premises are my own.

I believe that passage was fulfilled in A. D. 30. I do not think Jesus was talking about the architectural temple, but rather about His own body (John 2:19-21). In other words, that passage refers to Christ's death and resurrection.

I think the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse in all three Synoptic Gospels is how we understand the words "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" in Matthew 24:30. When we consult Daniel 7:13-14 we see that the Son of Man comes from the earth below up to the Father above, using the same language Christ used in Matthew 24:30. In other words, the coming of the Son of Man in the Olivet Discourse refers to Christ's ascension into Heaven in A. D. 30. The entirety of the Olivet Discourse, then, refers to events starting with Christ's earthly ministry and culminating in the descent of the Holy Spirit on the 120 on Pentecost in A. D. 30.

The only thing in the Bible that I believe is future to us is the Second Coming of Christ, and I believe this glorious, future event is mentioned only in Acts and in some of the Epistles.

When shall the Second Coming occur? Nobody knows, and nobody can ever have even the faintest inkling of a clue. We can't even date it to the nearest billion years.


I tend to be with you with a few small caveats, I am of the faith that the second coming, as told in the gospels, has done been done. But your focus on the cross is absolutely inspirational, and thanks. :D
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby davo » Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:45 pm

The ‘covenant eschatological’ perspective views the Cross and Parousia as God’s ONE time redemptive intervention in history, and as such sees these as bookends to this event in terms of the Cross being the DECISIVE event and the Parousia being the CULMINATING event.
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Re: On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell

Postby Ricky_13 » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:47 am

Thanks Davo.
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