The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Psychology and the Psalms

It is a costly and lavish gift - and I think that may be the point :confused:

Perhaps there is some irony in the lavishness of the gift. Nicodemus brings a gift as if in tribute to an earthly King/Master. Nicodemus is also slow witted as to the meaning of being born again/from above and perhaps he doesn’t understand the meaning of the myrrh at this point (since it had more than one use) or the meaning of kingship as Jesus sees it. I could be an instance of dramatic irony - we are ‘in the know’ but Nicodemus, at this point in the narrative, is not.

I’m speaking of John 19:39 where Joseph of Arimethea and Nicodemus come together to take the body of Jesus, with Nicodemus bringing the “myrrh and aloes”. I haven’t read the other gospels lately so remind me where he brought myrrh as a gift and it would be useful to compare the two accounts.

I am a twit :laughing: - I had a false memory of him bringing the gift when he came to see Jesus by night. You are right there is no dramatic irony here :blush: It’s a middle age thing :laughing: So back to the previous post - the precise amount of myrrh and aloes John lists must just show that these two important men saw it fit to give him the (secret) burial of a King. Perhaps the exact amount is hyperbole - giving a sense of the honour done to Jesus’ body in contrast to the dishonour done to his body in the Passion. :confused:

That makes sense, Dick. :smiley: Just as Mary’s use of spikenard to cleanse Christ’s feet was extravagant, so was Nicodemus buying 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes for Jesus’ burial.

Not only that, though. The women bought more and brought them on Sunday morning. Did they know what Nicodemus had done, or did they deem it insufficient? I guess the Jews did apparently use prodigious quantities of spices for burial (or at least those who could afford it did.) We typically think of Jesus and the disciples as poor people but I’ve read pretty convincing arguments that they were probably not as impoverished as we like to think. :wink:

It would be interesting to know how literally minded the Gospel writers were. Did they use symbolic numbers and hyperbole like the OT authors before them? What was the story-telling style of the age? I’m sure they wanted a faithful account, however, so i’m inclined to think they wrote as their memories and the memories of those they spoke to dictated…but maybe i’m approaching that from the wrong angle. Something can be 100% true in all the most important ways without being literally true (just like a good Terry Pratchett book, for example).

Not sure what the women thought - the burial had been in secret - but even if they’d know the use of myrrh was about paying their own respects.

I’m not sure it matters whether John gives the exact weights and measures; if it is hyperbole it still means that no expense was spared I guess James. And that’s the truth that is being communicated even to people who find it hard to imagine mathematical quantity of weight and measure(like myself :laughing: )

I get the impression that we have a complex picture.

Some of Jesus disciples were rich – even very rich; for example Lazarus of Bethany and his sisters and also Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus.
I don’t think the fishermen would have been rich - but a fisherman would have been more independent than a peasant.

As for Jesus and his blood family. Well Jesus was a carpenter of the artisan class rather than the peasant class. In terms of trade he wasn’t from the middle classes as we think of the middle classes today – but certainly a carpenter (often employed in the building trade as well as making chairs and tables etc) was comparatively well off compared to a peasant.

Jesus’ family may also have been from the priestly caste I guess, distanced from the Temple but still with friends within the Temple which was a source of wealth.

However, I do think that Jesus identified with the materially poor and the lot of the materially poor which was terrible during his day because of the taxes of Rome and the double tax demanded by the Temple. I think Jesus was still a prophet in speaking up for the poor and against those who abused their riches (but not against the rich per se). It often happens that champions of the poor come from a higher class. YE si think his message was both for the poor and for the poor in spirit (not necessarily the same thing). But I certainly don’t see Jesus as a mere social revolutionary - not at all.

I think in Jesus’ day the rich and the poor mixed more together; they didn’t live in different areas widely separated in terms of distance as they do today.

Well that’s how I imagine it Cindy :confused: .

Dick, I think you’re probably right about that. James & John, Peter and Andrew were partners in their fishing businesses. Remember they left their father (I think this was James and John – but it probably applied to both familes) with the hired hands in the boat. From that (and other things) I would deduce that the boats were good-sized and the businesses profitable enough to employ assistance. Even a fishing business can be a going concern.

If you think of the time Jesus was asleep in the bows of the boat and all His disciples afraid of the storm . . . Jesus had more disciples than the twelve. Did they leave the women behind to fend for themselves? I can’t see that. I think the women were probably at the last supper, too, as well as other faithful followers. Why wouldn’t they be? We assume only the twelve; we don’t have any real reason to do that. The pictures we have are all of Jesus with twelve men in a rowboat, but that isn’t realistic, imo. The Sea of Galilee is big water. I wonder whether it’s plausible to think of the four seasoned fishermen overloading one of their boats and then setting out into deep water as the sun sets? Where would Jesus have slept in the bows of such a small boat? That wouldn’t have been shelter at all. I’ve sheltered in the bows of a fishing craft myself, and even in a large shrimp boat it’s cold and wet there. In a boat of the kind the artists depict, it would be literally impossible. My belief is that the fishermen had a fairly large boat, sufficient to hold Jesus and His hangers-on and to more or less confidently strike out straight across the Lake of Tiberius.

Jesus, interestingly, may have been a stone mason rather than a carpenter and may even have worked on some of Herod’s building projects with Joseph. The word we translate “carpenter” apparently just means a tradesman of the building persuasion. There was some reason to think masonry was more likely, but I can’t remember at the moment what that was. In some passages Jesus is referred to as the carpenter from Galilee, which would seem to indicate He was known and in demand. He’d no doubt been working in the trade (whatever it was) since childhood, and He didn’t begin His public ministry until around 30, so He’d had time to build a reputation if He was good at what He did.

So . . . when Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had and give to the poor and come follow Him, He may not have been asking of the ruler (except in degree) anything He Himself had not already done. It’s also been speculated that Jesus may Himself have been trained as a Pharisee. (Though apparently not well known in that capacity – “How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?”) John the Baptist told the Pharisees, “There standeth one among you whom ye know not. He it is who, coming after me is preferred before me, whose sandals I am not worthy to unloose.” Like Paul, the Pharisees were typically men who supported themselves and their families through work in a trade (tent making in Paul’s case), so that would fit – even though it’s mostly conjecture.

Jesus warns potential followers that “The Son of Man hath nowhere to lay His head.” And some say this meant He himself had no claim on a home. He did of course have many friends who put Him and His disciples up when He was in their vicinity. I suspect that with His popularity through most of His ministry they would usually have had access to shelter of some kind. In Galilee, the homes of the disciples from there, and Jesus’ own family home. It would be interesting to know more about that part of His life.

Anyway, I digress . . . :wink:

Love, Cindy

How do we feel about David crying out to God for vengeance and punishment on his enemies, including their children?

1 ¶ «To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.» Do not keep silent, O God of my praise!
2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful Have opened against me; They have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
3 They have also surrounded me with words of hatred, And fought against me without a cause.
4 In return for my love they are my accusers, But I give myself to prayer.
5 Thus they have rewarded me evil for good, And hatred for my love.
6 ¶ Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is judged, let him be found guilty, And let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few, And let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless, And his wife a widow.
10 Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg; Let them seek their bread also from their desolate places.
11 Let the creditor seize all that he has, And let strangers plunder his labor.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy to him, Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off, And in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, And let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
15 Let them be continually before the LORD, That He may cut off the memory of them from the earth;
16 Because he did not remember to show mercy, But persecuted the poor and needy man, That he might even slay the broken in heart.
17 As he loved cursing, so let it come to him; As he did not delight in blessing, so let it be far from him.
18 As he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment, So let it enter his body like water, And like oil into his bones.
19 Let it be to him like the garment which covers him, And for a belt with which he girds himself continually.
20 Let this be the LORD’S reward to my accusers, And to those who speak evil against my person. (NKJV)

Nice one, Paidion! a good juicy wrath Psalm :laughing:
I’ll have a think!

Knee jerk reaction, is this is David at his most vindictive and vile. Yes, he justifies his anger by saying it’s “fair”…this guy is getting what he deserves as he did the same to others.
but this is contrary to the overarching message of the Bible…but i think it says that God allows us to express our feelings, even our dark ones. He of course may not choose to act on them. He more or less ignored Jonah and even told him off when Jonah (equally understandably) wanted Ninevah destroyed.

(Very interesting Cindy :smiley: ^^^)

I don’t think this one is quite as bad as it seems if we take the structure into account

**
The speaker is falsely accused either by slander or in an actual court of law.**

Do not keep silent,
O God of my praise!

2
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful
Have opened against me;
They have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

3
They have also surrounded me with words of hatred,
And fought against me without a cause.

4
In return for my love they are my accusers,
But I give myself to prayer.

5
Thus they have rewarded me evil for good,
And hatred for my love.

Now we are given the words of false accusation as indirect speech - this is indicated by 'Thus they have’

6
Set a wicked man over him,
And let an accuser[a] stand at his right hand.

7
When he is judged, let him be found guilty,
And let his prayer become sin.

8
Let his days be few,
And let another take his office.

9
Let his children be fatherless,
And his wife a widow.

10
Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg;
Let them seek their bread** also from their desolate places.

11
Let the creditor seize all that he has,
And let strangers plunder his labor.

12
Let there be none to extend mercy to him,
Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children.

13
Let his posterity be cut off,
And in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

14
Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
And let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

15
Let them be continually before the Lord,
That He may cut off the memory of them from the earth;

The speaker asks the Lord to turn the curses back upon his accusers

16
Because he did not remember to show mercy,
But persecuted the poor and needy man,
That he might even slay the broken in heart.

17
As he loved cursing, so let it come to him;
As he did not delight in blessing, so let it be far from him.

18
As he clothed himself with cursing as with his garment,
So let it enter his body like water,
And like oil into his bones.

19
Let it be to him like the garment which covers him,
And for a belt with which he girds himself continually.

20
Let this be the Lord’s reward to my accusers,
And to those who speak evil against my person.

**
The speaker turns to God as the true and merciful judge as a refuge from false accusations**

21
But You, O GOD the Lord,
Deal with me for Your name’s sake;
Because Your mercy is good, deliver me.

22
For I am poor and needy,
And my heart is wounded within me.

23
I am gone like a shadow when it lengthens;
I am shaken off like a locust.

24
My knees are weak through fasting,
And my flesh is feeble from lack of fatness.

25
I also have become a reproach to them;
When they look at me, they shake their heads.

26
Help me, O Lord my God!
Oh, save me according to Your mercy,

27
That they may know that this is Your hand—
That You, Lord, have done it!

28
Let them curse, but You bless;
When they arise, let them be ashamed,
But let Your servant rejoice.

29
Let my accusers be clothed with shame,
And let them cover themselves with their own disgrace as with a mantle.

30
I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth;
Yes, I will praise Him among the multitude.

31
For He shall stand at the right hand of the poor,
To save him from those who condemn him.1**

Which is to say that the speaker does not live up to the highest ideals of returning blessings for curses - but the speaker is not the originator of the curses here IMHO.

it’s interesting that in the last section when the speaker finally takes refugee in the Lord the counter cursing stops; he merely asks that he will be vindicated and his accusers will be made ashamed and will know that this was the Lord’s doing. His description of the Lord as the source of blessings rather than curse points forward to a the more complete understanding given by Jesus - that we are to imitate God (but we can only do this because Jesus is the clear image of God whom we can imitate) IMHO :slight_smile:

Great choice, Paidion.

I remember a few times that I’ve prayed this psalm or something very like it. :blush: In fact, at the moment it sounds pretty good for purposes I won’t elaborate on. :laughing: I find great encouragement in knowing I don’t have to walk on eggshells with God. He knows what’s in me anyway, and He can take it. Others maybe not so much, but He always knows just what to say to me to pull all the poison out and replace it with peace. In truth I think maybe He’d rather we be real and in the process, even a bit spiteful, than stand on false piety and pretend to be something we’re not. I’m pretty sure He ignores all that fire and vitriol stuff when we pour it out to Him. He looks and sees a hurting child, and unlike us sometimes (alas), He knows just how to heal His angry injured little ones.

The great thing is, of course, to let go of it once we’ve poured it out at His feet. If we cling to our anger it becomes sin rather than honesty. He will take it, and while at the moment I may not feel like letting it go, I never fight very hard. I WANT that person to pay, but I don’t want it badly enough to go on being miserable – besides, it could be worse! I could BE that person and might become so if I don’t yield to Father’s ministrations as David always does in the end. :slight_smile:

Here is a book on the first 40 Psalms, Cindy.

The Genesis Book of Psalms
gods-kingdom-ministries.net/teac … of-psalms/

Jones relates the Psalms back to Genesis building on E.W. Bullinger’'s work.

I read it a few years ago…So some day when you have time you can take a looksee.

Hello, Cindy. I just made this same comment to Cole. As one who has a graduate degree in psychology, I would take issue with using the term psychoanalyze. As you are probably aware, it is a methodology started by Freud. And all his inner circle of fellow physicians, went on to develop their own methodologies. Can you please substitute another term? Perhaps a better word term might be “psychologically evaluate”?

The title was just intended as a “hook,” Randy; not as anything like a deep statement, but I don’t mind changing it if anyone finds it misleading or objectionable. Is this better?

Cloud, Thanks. :slight_smile: I’ll have a look!

Much better. Thanks