The Evangelical Universalist Forum

panhandling

Much contemporary research has shown…That there is a strong generic predisposition factor in alcoholism…I got this info from a professor of genetic modeling research - at Harvard. I assume he is correct. :laughing: Are you saying a person is stronger than their genetics?

Don said:

:smiley:

Andre said (and DON agreed :smiley: )

:laughing:

Randy said to Origen:

:wink:

LLC said:

:confused:

ST Michael said:

So as an outside observer, what has this little post taught us? Do we need to love, do we need to hate, do we need to shove people off to the side? Can we genetically be what we are and yet live the way that society wants us to live? Do we have it with in our will to say ‘today I will change such and such?’ I am trying myself to think outside the box so to speak :laughing: Or will we never agree :blush:

I look forward to the comments :smiley:

But it may help them get through the night, put a bit of food in their tummy and who knows? Maybe God will be pleased with the cheerful giving of a generous heart.

“A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease.[58]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_t … alcoholism
alcoholproblemsandsolutions … se.html#40

Do the 12 steps & 12 traditions of AA not put responsibility on the alcoholic to quit:

THE TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
    unmanageable.

  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
    sanity.

  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
    understood Him.

  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
    of our wrongs.

  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
    amends to them all.

  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
    so would injure them or others.

  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
    admitted it.

  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
    God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
    the power to carry that out.

  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to
    carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
    affairs.

aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf

Read a free preview online of "Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease by Herbert Fingarette.

scribd.com/document/78186263/Fingarette-Herbert-Heavy-Drinking-the-Myth-of-Alcoholism-as-a-Disease

You can also download a pdf file of the book.

I looked at the book outline. And I am in agreement with you Don , but I just have to ask, are the majority of the panhandlers (beggars as you say) having a problem with heavy drinking in your estimation? There may be other causes.

You said it is possible that the idea was that the panhandlers could not find work in another post. if any of these are reality, what do we do to fix or change things?

Thanks…

Once a cucumber turns into a pickle it stays a pickle. This is what A.A. means by alcoholism being a disease. The true alcoholic drinks because he likes the effect produced by alcohol. Once he starts drinking it produces a phenomena of craving to where he sooner or late will be on a binge. This is why the recovering alcoholic chooses to admit defeat and complete powerlessness and turn his will over to the care of God. The alcoholic chooses to surrender and let God have control of his life. He has a disease in the sense that he cannot drink like other people and must refrain from alcohol. As Bill Wilson (the founder of A.A.) states in the above text I provided, alcoholics must never be blinded by the futile philosophy that they are just the hapless victims of their inheritance, of their life experience, and of their surroundings— that these are the sole forces that make their decisions for them. This is not the road to freedom. We have to believe that we can really choose.

Genetics don’t force behavior. They predispose. An example is a study that was done with two genetically identical twins born from alcoholic parents. One grew up to be an alcoholic and the other didn’t. Moreover, all sin is a disease according to the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that all sin is a disease. None of the verses you quoted state it.
Sin is not a disease; sin is a choice. So is heavy drinking or alcoholism.

I have known heavy drinkers or “alcoholics” (if you choose to call them that) who have made the decision to quit drinking, and have succeeded.

Also AA affirms that if an alcoholic ever takes a drink again, after going through the AA program, he will fall into the same drinking pattern. They say, “Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.” This also is not true. I have known alcoholics who have stopped drinking heavily, and who could still have an occasional drink without falling into heavy drinking again.

Sorry Paidion but this scripture calls all sin a sickness:

Have you known them their whole lives even to the present moment and their present lifestyle? Each of the twelve steps and traditions are designed to deflate ego and cause a psychic change. Not just stop drinking. They have a different personality. The person who works the steps and traditions has a new life. A psychic change. They undergo ego deflation and gain humility. It’s what C.S. Lewis describes:

True alcoholics and drug addicts are the ones who hit bottom and shatter their ego where they then surrender and come to have faith in God. They are humbled under His mighty hand. They quit playing God and insisting that they should control their life. The fundamental and paradoxical premise of Twelve Step recovery is this: The more you realize your lack of control, the more powerless you discover yourself to be. The more powerless you discover yourself to be, the more natural it is to surrender to God. The more surrendered to God you become the less you struggle against the flow of life. The less you struggle against the flow of life the freer you become. It’s about freedom and regaining sanity as you become a member of society again. All of the 12 Step deflate our egos. Greater humility is the foundational principle in each and every one. The same is true of the 12 Traditions. They all aim to keep ego deflated and produce a spirit of humility which in the form of anonymity constitutes their spiritual foundation.

That may be. Where I live i think some of these people would not be hired by anyone due to mental illness or other issues. Many of them are seeking money to support a drug addiction, as the area is well known for such. Some of them are homeless.

As to money, the Canadian government offers all of them “welfare” of several hundred dollars a month, for lodging & food. Additionally, there are many organizations that offer free food, clothes, medications, etc. Many Christian missions give free meals throughout the day.

I used to be a heavy drinker & a light drinker. I was never addicted, so quitting was always easy & without any need for a program like AA. (OTOH, if heroin was shot into my veins, maybe that would be another story completely.) It’s been said that some people don’t have addictive personalities. Or maybe they’re makeup is such that they’re much less likely than others to become addicted to alcohol, but more likely than most to become controlled by something else, like watching porn or sports or being a kleptomaniac. Or maybe in Satan’s kingdom he forces some of his subjects to be addicted to something, e.g. alcohol, & allows others to quit it easily.

If you put into Google “is alcoholism a disease”, you will see expert opinions - on both sides of the equation. Even Wiki covers it, in their article at Disease theory of alcoholism.

Suppose someone on the forum - said this:

The problem is that these doctors are on the front line. More or less general practitioners. And they usually don’t know, the medical research going on. Unless they also hold PhD degrees and conduct university research.

Most likely - both are true. It fits a disease model - of both heretical and environmental factors. But it can also be overcome - at times, by methods from both psychology and spirituality.

Let’s view an interesting Q and A at:

Why Is Alcoholism Classified As A Mental Illness?

But let me also quote from an article, from the

ADDICTION AS A DISEASE

There is a show on TV, based upon Archie comics. And it has a darker side. There is a killer called the black hood. And he likes and calls this innocent girl, on her phone. She is addicted to this ringtone: youtu.be/3rYoRaxgOE0 :laughing:

And maybe things like mindfulness can help. And it doesn’t conflict with Christianity - as the Patheos evangelical article describes. And the author describes a brilliant PhD thesis:

Evangelical Christian Thoughts about “Mindfulness”

All this reminds me, of the old three stooges short. Where a rich and learned professor…was betting another rich and earned professor…on heredity vs environment. The bet was this: can the one professor, make the 3 stooges gentlemen :question: :laughing:

Randy,

Mindfulness does help. It’s also part of ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy). ACT has been proven scientifically and is dovetailed with the 12 steps in the workbook I have

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lTI1Zqt5L.SX398_BO1,204,203,200.jpg

It’s also part of step 11 in A.A.

  1. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
    God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
    the power to carry that out.

Yes, Michael, you quoted this earlier as a proof text that “this scripture calls all sin a sickness.” I could scarcely believe that you actually thought that this text states such. So I ignored your first quote of it as proof of your sin=sickness idea. I guess I thought your idea that the text stated all sin a sickness, would go away. But since it hasn’t, I will address the text this time.

Jesus is making and ANALOGY. He is comparing sickness to sin, in the sense that just as people who are well do not need a physician to deliver them from sickness, so righteous people do not not need Jesus to deliver them from sin. And just as sick people need a physician to deliver them from sickness, so sinners need Jesus to deliver them from sin.

Jesus in the passage makes a parallel between those who are sick and those who are sinners therefore linking the two together. Jesus is called the “Great Physician” in the Bible who HEALS. We also see this connection between sin and healing in 1 Peter:

We are healed of the sickness and disease of sin. Romans 8 tells us that the whole creation is in bondage and a slave to sin. Called by Paul “the bondage of corruption,” is subjection to decay, devastation, disease, destruction, and degradation because of sin—mankind’s sin. Indeed, all disease and degeneration are ultimately products of sin and neglect

Jesus healed sickness and disease. Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 do not speak of physical healing but spiritual healing. Mankind’s greatest need is for his sin sickness to be cured. Calvin said “it is certain the prophet doesn’t speak of physical illness,” The healing referred to in the texts relates to the cleansing and forgiveness of sin. In Jer. 3:22 God says He will heal faithlessness or backsliding. In the above texts the object of the word “heal” is sinners and their sins.

“Sweet Hour Of Prayer”

That draws me from a world of care.
That calls me from a world of snares.

“And since He bids me seek His face,
Believe His Word and trust His grace”

library.timelesstruths.org/music … of_Prayer/

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Benny Hinn - Practices for “Waiting on the Lord”
youtube.com/watch?v=LvL17LQUYpY

From “Remarks on the Character and Writings of Fenelon” by Wm. E. Channing:


I read this at the precise moment I may have needed to read this. My wife and I just ‘entertained’ our five young grand children. :smiley: As I relate to them and watched them I witnessed their quirks and behaviors, and once again I will say that we are a complex species. I get excited and exasperated almost at the same time. Love is the only potion that will move us through the human condition and leave us intact.

Thanks.