The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Trauma and free will

Hi Steve…

I’d say the difference between rational man and animals is the difference between free-will choice and instinctual choice. Humans can also make instinctual choices around self-survival BUT these are enhanced greatly by free-will choice, more-so then animals possess.

BUT - that has been done already and extensively, and I hope this thread follows along the lines of the OP. Thanks.

OK sure but that’s my compulsion, to respond to something even when asked not to! :imp:

Hi Steve…

I’d say the difference between rational man and animals is the difference between free-will choice and instinctual choice. Humans can also make instinctual choices around self-survival BUT these are enhanced greatly by free-will choice, more-so then animals possess.

OK fair enough! BTW clearly you never met my dog!

Well, there are technical definitions available, from the Diagnostics and Statistical Manual 5. Just type into Google, the keywords “childhood trauma DSM 5”.

But the first step, is the person needs to admit they need help. If they don’t take that first step, then not much can be done.

I have see people healed of trauma by:

Native American ceremonies, performed by authentic, indigenous people.
Native American medicine men and women
The appropriate form of psychotherapy, performed by a licensed counselor or therapist
Homeopathic constitutional prescribing, performed by a licensed medical doctor
Healing done via the gifts of the spirit
Spiritual healing

Psychiatrists like to sometimes prescribe different medications. And that is a physician’s call. But often the combination of pharmaceuticals, has a variety of potential side effects.

Randy in your opinion - does the troubled person’s ‘healing’ come down to a black-and-white matter of will power? Assuming a person does ask for help, or admits the need during an intervention etc. - is even well-informed will power sufficient?
Because I know - from experience , the following ‘advice’ - that 'if you wanted it badly enough, you could simply stop this ‘sinful’ behavior. Noone can do it for you, and if you say you can’t stop, for some ‘deep reasons’ or other - it just proves that you love your sinful nature so that you can continue in your fleshly pursuits".
-end of paraphrased ‘advice’ that has actually been given

I know that the direct ‘sin is your problem, you don’t want to stop your behavior’ - helps the advice-giver to maintain a certain spiritual balance, and keeps his world in order. No matter that he is missing the point, and the ability to help, completely. By ALL MEANS keep your ideas of original sin and the sin-nature, the propensity to sin etc. as the panacea for explaining all troubles - it is an easy formula to remember, the person you are advising is already deeply troubled and will believe anything you offer AND - as a BONUS - if they fail, you still are RIGHT! Whoopee!! It’s a win-win for the uninformed advisor.

What is the difference between sinful actions and the actions of those (IF THERE ARE ANY, which is disputed) who are genuinely messed up?

THAT there Dave IMO is the toxicity of religianity… power and control under the guise of spirituality; a false, fake or disingenuous spirituality aka self-righteousness.

Have you ever noticed that when a church pew-sitter “falls in sin” it is because of their own lack of faithfulness, i.e., they haven’t jumped sufficiently (or finally in exacerbation point blank refused) through countless religious hoops, BUT when a church leader “falls in sin”… he’s under the attack of the devil. :unamused:

Oh I have heard that too many times to count.

A point I’ve tried to make, unsuccessfully, is that:
-yes, sin is a problem and displeasing to God, and disruptive to the individual and society. That’s a given.
-I think it is illegitimate to then name all ‘abberant’ behavior ‘sinful’ and to deal with it as a moral issue of rebellion against God.
-Children are often PASSIVE recipients of patterns of behavior, or trauma whether sexual, lack of parents, neglect, or family history of mental illness; those kids do what every human does - find behaviors that will help them adapt to the effects of the trauma. And most of those behaviors are really not well-adjusted to the ‘normals’ all around them. Those “troubled” kids and the troubled adults they grow into, should not be lumped, by an ignorant religious attitude, into the ‘massa damnata’ right off the bat. Trying to heal them on that basis is not smart. They will recognize their own part in their behavior soon enough, but need the information they are lacking, and a blanket of love around them while they process the information, and someone non-judgmental who is wise to help them find the way. Ideally it would be a church family, but good luck with that.

This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions about this issue I’ve heard. :smiley: Also the idea of how not to deal with this group is worth re reading. Dave get’s it right here. Thanks Dave. :smiley:

:smiley:

All traumatized kids learn that ‘necessity is the mother of invention’.

I think all of humanity is a body. There is a shared condition among all humans. Some of the ways God has created protection around communities where love is strong have been torn down today. The result is a lot of contagious ills that require His intervention to cure.

The family is the primary healthy community in theory. Christian assemblies are supposed to be communities of families, helping and supporting one another.

“If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea(oneness, fellowship, union) together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.”

“Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed”.

In the unhealthy family sins are hidden and guilt and shame keeps the darkness over the face of the deep.

In the healthy family sins are not met with shame, but forgiveness, prayer, counsel. “Let there be light!”

I think childhood trauma causes lots of problems, especially when the trauma is the result of dysfunction in the family, because the things that destroy us usually come from within, and the solution is healing and repairing the breaches that have occurred in our personal walls. Because of the lies we believed and the fears we hold onto for protection, our healing is often kept an an arms length, sometimes for as simple a reason as we have no one with whom we can open our hearts and come into the light.

That emphasis on family is so key.

David:

A person who is sick, is not necessarily sinning. Remember Jesus’ words: “he who is without sin, let them cast the first stone.” Or the disciples question: “Who did sin, this man or his parents. That he was born blind?” And Jesus answered: “Neither. It is the gift of God, working in him.”

Of course, I am paraphrasing from memory. And folks can fault me, for not having the exact bible quotes, references and Bible translations. The Eastern Orthodox look unto Jesus, as the great physician. And Eastern Orthodox theology, doesn’t view us as suffering the guilt of original sin. But the stain of original sin. And Geoffrey and I, have both discussed this, on the forum here.

Sin and disease are two separate issues. One can be a non-Christian - for example. They go to someone with the gift of healing. Perhaps the Roman Catholic priest - Father A (whom I have mentioned many times). And they get relief or healing. It has happened to non-Christians.

Hopefully, the Non-Christian will inquiry further. Just like those Jesus has healed - during his lifetime on earth.

But a person who is experiencing childhood trauma, is just that - they are experiencing illness or disease. And it might be that the cocaine, alcohol, heron, etc. (if they take them), alleviates the pain temporary. And they need more and more, to block out the pain. Then it becomes a problem of both addiction and trauma.

So people have separate issues. For trauma, they must first admit they have an illness. Then they can be directed, to the proper resources.

For sin, they must admit they have a problem. Then they are directed, to a Christian minister or priest.

That’s good stuff, Randy.
In your experience, you have seen physical ailments cured - almost instantaneously, as we see in the N.T.? I have not witnessed that myself but also I have no doubts that has happened countless times.

What I have seen is the truth of the old saw: “As the twig is bent, so grows the tree”. That bending can be ‘good’ or ‘bad’, mainly due to the influences of the family. And those that have been bent by traumas - depending on the severity - do not seem, overall, to ever fully recover (based on my experience), no matter the amount of prayer or counseling. There ARE successes of course, thank God; but most of the others continue to have the trauma at the center of their being, and learn to work around it - which is not a recipe for success - or learn to work with it - a homeopathic stance that asks the person to ‘listen’ to the trauma, stay with it, ride it out, and when it is no longer feared, live with it - much of the ‘sting’ being removed by the work of ‘listening’. That can be done various ways - stillness in prayer or meditation, ‘centering’, some rituals - well you know better than I do the various methods.

I’ts good to get these ideas floating around - I know they are already out there in the pop-psychology world, and that a lot of that world is kinda ridiculous - but I don’t throw the ‘baby out with the bathwater’. Wherever there is true understanding, I think we need to honor it.

But with you, Randy, I’m preaching to the choir! You’re much more in tune with the variety of religious experience and healing experiences.Some of which are foreign to me - shamanism etc. - but I find interesting.

OK, Dave. Let me respond.

Yes, I have seen instantaneous healing of folks, by spiritual healing, gifts of the spirit, and Native American ceremonial ways. But I have also seen partial healing, healing at a later date and no healing at all. Only God knows the real reason.

God had a covenant with the Jews. But I also believed God communicated his presence to other cultures. Like the Upanishads and Vedanta of ancient India. Or the visions of the Native American people, from which they derived their medicine and ceremonial ways. But Christ is still the fulfillment of these ways.

And to ride a trauma out, both psychology and Buddhism, place great stock in mindfulness meditation.

If a person has trauma and a psychiatrist is prescribing a variety of meds, it’s harder to heal them by other ways. But trauma can be treated by homeopathic methods. Usually be a super high dose of Aconitum (AKA Monkshood) and Rescue Remedy. But these are general remedies. And a person must consult a homeopath, who is also a licensed M.D.

Mine started when I was born. In the first grade I was sent to a special school at lunch time for shy kids because I wouldn’t talk or play with the others. It escalated to a social phobia. I had 2 close friends in high school but I was always different. Completely terrified of speaking in front of groups. I started drinking after high school when I started junior college after the break up by my girlfriend. Alcohol released my fears. I know why they call it liquid courage. Marijuana intensified my self-consciousness as the social anxiety got worse. It escalated 1000 times with my few bad trips on acid. I consider my LSD trips as my traumatic experiences. It terrified my the first time yet I did it a few more. Why? I don’t know. When I started A.A. I stopped everything for a couple of years and delved into the philosophy and logic quite heavily. It was in my twenties that I had my first psychotic break after an argument I had with the astrophysicist Hugh Ross on the radio. I had to go to the hospital. I wasn’t making sense and thought that people were coming after me. That’s when I was diagnosed as schizoaffective (bipolar type). I guess my psychotic break can be considered a traumatic experience. It seems like everything in my life was building and building up the psychotic break. The causes are unknown. I’ve tried the Niacin thing without medicine and it doesn’t work. I get delusional. My head starts spinning and I get obsessive. I believe that people on the internet, T.V. or radio are against me and then swing into thinking I’m God. Everything becomes connected and I start thinking that others are controlling my thoughts and emotions. My anxiety and fears multiply to where I think others are tracking me and then coming after me. Then when I try to talk to others about it I’ll forget the topic and flow of the conversation or don’t reach the goal I’m headed to. I slip off track and change the subject. I’ll go from one idea to another and reach conclusions that don’t follow from other ideas. Everything becomes jumbled up in my head. When I speak nothing comes out right and people don’t understand what I’m talking about. I constantly focus on myself. They haven’t been able to prove whether or not substance addiction causes the disorder or whether the disorder causes substance addition.

Quite a history there St. M.

:smiley:

I went through a lot of chidhood trauma. Frequent moves, brawling parents. Got into drugs and alcohol as a teen in the late 60s and damaged my mind from several bad acid trips. Started studyng eastern mysticism and shamanism. Also started reading the book of Revelations. I was sitting in a basement in the ghetto of Detroit with a group of “heads” (what we used to call street level sorcerers) when I had my first revelation of Jesus Christ. I had been praying, “God whoever you are and whatever you are please show me” for several months- and He did. It was like a bubble burst in my soul and every cell in my body knew that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and I saw Him crucified( as a matter of overwhelming consciousness more than as a vision). I also heard the call to pick up my cross and follow Him, and it made me reluctant and afraid, so I ran from God for another year or so, but I got out of the street life and started looking into Jesus and the Bible. He met me at every turn, began to draw me and also confront me. I eventually yielded and began to seek Him and to study the scriptures and testout churches. The healing of my mind took maybe 2 or three years. He rebuilt my intellect and healed my consciousness through meditation in the psalms and vigorous consumption of the word of God, along with healthy doses of prayer, Christian music and fellowship with believers.

The two verses that really impacted me powerfully in the beginning were 1) “Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened”… I read this and determined to bite into the scriptures like a bulldog and not let go until God had shaken me out of all the garbage I was lost in…2) “If your eye causes you to offend pluck it out, it is better to enter heaven maimed than to enter hell whole”. Strange combo perhaps, but every walk is an individual one, and thats how God dealt with me.

Then I began my Alice in Wonderland like trek through Christian religion- fundamentalism, Pentecostalism, Charismatic iterations of various modes.

Its a jungle out there.

Evrything we go through is a lesson and an opportunity. We will understand it better by and by. :smiley:

Truer words have never been spake. :smiley:

Thx.