The Evangelical Universalist Forum

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

John Bolton, Trump’s new national security advisor, wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal last February making a case for the United States to attack North Korea “first.” In addition, Bolton has previously made statements encouraging pre-emptive strikes on Syrian and Iraqi reactor sites (in 1981 and 2007). I wonder whether this appointment result in impending nuclear world war.

[size=150]NO MORE CHIT CHAT WITH NORTH KOREA[/size]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eYj_wBZ_GM[/youtube]

Just the opposite, I think. Trump is ratcheting up the pressure on Kim the only way Kim understands. I think this will work out peacefully. We cannot wait, realistically, for another nut in charge of earth-shattering weapons.

Exactly, Dave.

Bolton spoke as a private citizen with little power. He will ADVISE, not COMMAND the President. If Kim thinks we’re not serious, then we have no leverage . . . We do NOT want a war. We can NOT back down or there will absolutely BE a war. Either way it depends on Kim, but we at least have a chance to save him and his poor enslaved citizens IF and ONLY if he believes we are serious.

Which we are.

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Well, it seems to me that Mr. Bolton wants to go much further than a mere threat. He declares that the only way to stop North Korea from developing its nuclear weapons so as to be capable of nuking United States, is to carry out a pre-emptive nuclear attack against them.

We shall see.

Not going to happen. I actually think it’s possible Bolton is right–not in the sense of turning NoKo into a smoking hole, but more in the vein of what Israel did to neutralize Iran’s nukes once upon a time some years ago. If that were a viable option (which seems questionable), I’d say we should go for it. Better that than waiting for them to launch and then possibly failing to shoot the evil thing out of the sky.

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I think that is exactly the thinking of Mr. Bolton, except that he wouldn’t consider it questionable.

Well, I think I have to begin to sing - the appropriate love songs. :laughing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E2El1kdooM[/youtube]

I’m edging close, ever closer, even closer. yet…to the cliff I just named the ZAODS.
Zombie Apocalypse Overload Derangement Syndrome.

I’m begging you Randy, help a brother out! - fight the urge to post ZA stuff all over! You have an addiction! It’s hard to have an ‘intervention’ on a forum but we could try to help you. I’ll send (a small amount) of money to help with therapy! I will pray to whatever saint - wait - let me google it - here: Dymphna - can help you.

God knows I have my quirks, slothalothaphobia (an irrational fear of armadillos); attempts to build a miniature but highly-detailed Byzantine church out of cat hair (could not find a scientific name for that one, except, maybe, the technical term ‘nuts’), and a more understandable, though troubling, desire to play ping-pong with Kate Upton. And oh yes, there are more items yet in the multi-quirkdom over which I reign.

Nonetheless, though it’s a struggle, I do not give free rein (ha) to these 'interesting, colorful, somewhat curious, seriously debilitating, charming little hiccups in an otherwise gloriously endowed Character.

There may be a little bit o’ hyperbole in the above. :laughing:

Oh, I don’t know, Don… It’s hard to know what exactly is in another person’s mind. I would like to see NoKo free. I and just about everyone else, want the people there to be free and prosperous and out from under the thumb of this evil man. No one knows how to accomplish it and hardly anyone is willing to sacrifice our own societies in order to save their poor beleaguered one (and then have them all perish in misery as the slaves of Kim anyway). A surgical preemptive strike that could somehow spare SoKo from retaliation (and Japan, too) would be a mercy, I think. I’m pretty sure though, that it can’t be accomplished. Our govt can’t seem to find their hinies with both hands, let alone do something as tricky as this. I’m afraid we’re going to blow the whole place up (I mean the planet) and that will be the destruction with fire literally accomplished. It’s not like the 1940’s and it’s not like Reagan, who had Maggie Thatcher to help him. Unless God puts His finger on the scale in some way, I’m not sure how we get out of this mess in this life.

As for John Bolton, though, I think he’s a good choice. I hope I’m right about that. It won’t work to do the Nevil Chamberlain thing with Kim any more than it worked with Hitler. Kim is a bad, bad man and he’s not going to listen to people he perceives to be weak/cowering/frightened in any way. He remembers what BHO did to Gaddafi and he doesn’t want to die in some ditch somewhere. He’s holding a knife to the throats of not only his people, but also those of SoKo and to a lesser degree, Japan. Heck, maybe even China is afraid of him. You get a vicious dog next door and yes, a big vicious dog is scarier than a small one, but the small one can still put a big lot of nasty holes in your ankle. Especially if he has a nuclear bomb in his back pocket. So you can send enough ordinance back to turn the whole place into a nuclear waste dump? You still have a big gaping hole in Shanghai. Maybe more than one. Not to mention the whole area is poisoned for decades to come.

I really think some bluster and acting like a crazy person might be in order.

<Randy, I was joking above, of course. Not about the armadillos, but the rest of it>

Hey, Dave.

I’m just following my calling. Everyone has their quirks here. For some, it might be Panrellism or Full Preterism. Others it might be No Free-Will Universism or Ultra Universalism. And other such theological and philosophical oddities.

I just found the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse (especially as seen by some, with the “alleged” gift of prophecy)…to be my cup of tea. And it MAKES PERFECT SENSE.

Especially after watching ALL the episodes, of the AMC shows - The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead. It makes PERFECT theological and philosophical sense… as the most PROBABLE, end times model.

But I keep having problems, “selling” it. The 70 AD folks, want to align them with the futurists. The futurists here, want to align them - with the 70 AD, completion folks. You can’t win for losing. :laughing:

So I’m just their marketing guy. And if I am right, I am performing a GREAT service - for humanity. :smiley:

You’re lucky I’m not on board… with the Peter Popoff, miracle spring water. :laughing:

Oh my!! :laughing: :laughing:



Cindy, I don’t have to be convinced as to how evil Kim is, or the fact that the people in his regime are suffering horribly. I just don’t believe that nuking the country, including the suffering people, would be the solution that Jesus would recommend. Surely His instructions to “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who abuse you,” has a universal application, and was not meant to be limited to His immediate disciples.

Of course I realize that some Christians are sure that Christ’s instructions do not apply to international relations, or even to individuals. They always bring up the objection (and I used to do it myself), if you saw that a man was about to kill your spouse, and you had a gun in your hand, would you not shoot him? Or would you just let him kill your spouse?"

After my experience living as a teacher in a Hutterite community for three years, and having read Tolstoi’s short stories concerning this very matter, I have changed my thinking on the matter.

No doubt, one should do what is necessary to save the life of one’s spouse. But killing another person in order to do so, is not a Christian option.

Hi, Don. I have spent many years, with the Quakers silent meeting. It was a part, of my spiritual growth. I respect ALL their peace efforts. And I think if there are, any non-war options available …to resolve the North Korean crisis…they should ALL be explored. Whether it’s working with China, the UN, Europe, having face-to-face meetings (between Trump and Kim), etc. I’m all for it.

I respect the men and women, of peace. But I also have respect, for Christian friends I know - in the armed forces.

May we find a way out, that respects balance and peace.

:mrgreen: Nah Randy… you just have to take full ownership and be accountable for your own sales pitch, i.e., YOU’RE the one for a LONG time now who’s been flogging this… ‘the zombie apocalypse is COMING’ — future :laughing:

No doubt, one should do what is necessary to save the life of one’s spouse. But killing another person in order to do so, is not a Christian option.
Paidion

I think if we wish to sacrifice ourselves for someone that’s Christlike but making the decision to sacrifice others to evil is not something we are called to do or should do. Just my opinion but a President has a duty to protect the citizens and this issue with Kim may extend to whether we should protect Japan or South Korea. Kim has threatened Japan several times and has said their existence is unnecessary and he feels South Korea is part of North Korea.

I wasn’t talking about a NUCLEAR preemptive action, Don. I said a surgical strike on missile sites (I think I did–if I didn’t make that clear, I apologize). Surgical strikes are carried out with conventional weapons–I don’t know why anyone would want to use nuclear for that, but maybe I’m wrong. Unfortunately, I don’t believe we can be sure we know where all of those missile sites are, and some are apparently mobile. Taking out a missile site would be more like shooting the gun out of the hand of the aggressor though no doubt people attending the sites could be killed or hurt in the process. The goal is to kill missiles, not to harm people.

As for ACTUALLY shooting a gun out of someone’s hand–I’m no genius, but I’m smarter than trying to do that. Center mass. I will absolutely pull that trigger for my husband if needed and for anyone else who might be under threat from a bad guy. I’m not a Hutterite. My dad fought in WWII and I’m proud of him and if he and others hadn’t done that, and no one else intervened, the Nazis and Japanese imperialists (or which-ever group survived a subsequent struggle between the two) would now be ruling the world (unless someone ELSE took THAT regime down.) John the Baptist told the soldiers to be satisfied with their wages and not to take advantage of the locals (or something similar–I can’t remember exactly). He could have told them to lay down their weapons and willingly suffer the consequences. Just because many of them were essentially slaves to Rome doesn’t excuse obeying orders to use physical force–if that’s never justified. Maybe the Baptist was wrong.

If he WAS wrong, then we should immediately disband all police forces, military forces, and even disciplinary practices that require the (often violent) use of force such as the prison system. One should NEVER call 911 in case of a crime, because one might become implicit in a police officer feeling forced to do evil by using violence to protect one. One should not approach a suspected bomber because of the high probability one might push him to injure or kill himself by detonating a bomb to prevent his own capture (which would no doubt also have required violence to achieve.)

The Hutterites can have their beliefs and live by them and survive in nice little communities because most of the world does NOT live by Hutterite beliefs. Hutterites and other pacifists are protected by the violence of others who are willing to keep the violence of those of evil intent away from them. They are protected, ultimately, by violent men. That’s not their fault (unless they pay their taxes). They can’t stop the police from protecting their communities although they can refrain from calling for help (and maybe they WOULD refrain–I don’t know). It’s like the parents who refuse to have their child vaccinated against life-threatening disease. As long as the child stays in communities in which most of the people have been vaccinated, he will be unlikely to be exposed to the diseases for which he has little in the way of defense (that defense is also so microscopically violent that doctors have named one of our white blood cell types Natural Killer Cell). His safety is in the fact that others have done what he (his parents) will NOT do for whatever reason. Same with the Hutterites. They’re (more or less) surrounded by a cushion of potential violence on their behalf, which allows them to live in relative safety while refusing to personally commit violence on their own behalf on on behalf of others. IMO, it’s kind of hypocritical. Not their fault. They can’t do anything about it–but it still allows them to live in a way that would otherwise not be possible–or at least not possible for long.

“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”

I think that is a true statement.

Paidion is correct. Vengeance belongs to God. If that means undergoing violence like the Christian martyrs and the apostle Paul did - so be it.