The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is mockery a legitimate tool?

Would you expand upon the context, please :question: :confused:

But I might have to continue this “intellectual discussion” until tomorrow. Tonight I might be emerged in TV shows, that have no redeeming value. :exclamation: :laughing:

We are not to be like Christ in every way. As God He has rights and prerogatives that His creatures don’t. We are commanded:

1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

Insults and mockery is disrespectful.

Here’s a definition of context (from dictionary.com):

Okay Randy. Hold on to your EGO then.

Ego is a judgment call. If I am providing links to articles, written by professionals (and Christians to boot), how is that ego? I could say the same about a person, not providing links to professionals - to back their ideas (i.e. what a bible verse means and what context surrounds it).

It’s EGO because you don’t want to treat others with respect. You are trying to justify forcing views on people through insult and mockery. That’s disrespectful and controlling. And that’s EGO for creatures. There’s a God and I’m not it.

Have you follow the thread, God does not create, commit, or allow evil!? In it, I presented several professional opinions, on the why of evil and suffering. Then I had a long and interesting dialogue there with Dennis. Then I made the statement, that a person needs to choose, what works best for them.

I really don’t care if you agree with me or not. Kind of like the academic professor, who presents some professional ideas. Then leaves it up to the class - to discuss them.

Like, here is a Calvinist context, to Galatians 5:22-23 you quoted:

What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

And a question occurred to me. Is Simeon the Holy Fool an egoist? And how can we tell, if historical figures like Plato, Socrates, Confucius, Buddha or Aristotle - are egoists or not :question:

To speak ill of others is a dishonest way of praising ourselves - Will Durant

Uhh, Michael, it appears you have put yourself on the bema and are judging Randy in a not so gentle and kind way…

Thanks for the input folks.

Michael, you raise an interesting couple of points: firstly, to what degree and in what manner is it legitimate to emulate Christ; secondly, various NT texts speak plainly of ‘gentleness’ in our communication, but does this then always delegitimise mockery?

A) Emulating Christ - if He was sinless and mocked others, then doesn’t that imply that mockery is not a sin? If one argues that it was ok for Him but not for us then surely that same point can be applied to everything He did and therefore the call to imitate Jesus is gutted of all power, for what of His behaviours then can we be sure of are to be emulated by mere humans rather than being reserved for the divine only?

B) It certainly seems that we are called to be respectful and gentle in conversation. But does this preclude mockery? What about gentle mockery? And what about the fact that the apostles themselves sometimes used very strong language, warnings, insults and mockery in the NT, let alone the examples of such found in the early church fathers (let alone the OT prophets)?

I agree it seems tricky.

Gabe,

Nowhere have I mocked or insulted Randy to try to change his views. To make a judgement isn’t the same thing as judging self-righteously or hypocritically. I haven’t mocked or insulted him. I can say something is wrong without mocking or insulting. For example: drinking and driving. If it’s wrong I can say so without mocking or insulting. The same thing goes with abusing children. I can make a judgement and say “it’s EGO to abuse children” without mocking and insulting. We are not to judge self-righteously or hypocritically.

Hey Pog,

Where does the N.T. command us to mock and insult? It commands the opposite:

Galatians 5:22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

1 Peter 3:15: But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

In the Bible people do things that are sinful. Just because the Bible records a person doing something doesn’t mean it condones it. For example: Peter denied Christ three times. That doesn’t mean it was a holy act though. God often does use evil people to speak prophetically through them. Caiaphas comes to mind. But just because someone commits a sinful act in the Bible doesn’t mean it’s approved of.

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~~ Micah 6:8

Moreover, God is infinitely perfect and great and glorious - we are not. Therefore, God is the only being for whom self-exaltation is a most loving act. In seeking His glory from creatures it breaks the bondage to the idol of self in us. Therefore, it is an act of love on God’s part. He knows we won’t be complete until we give Him the glory. There are many ways we are not like God. To try to be like God in every way leads to megalomania because we are finite creatures. This is what happened to Satan when he was cast out for prideful megalomania. For creatures, all sin comes from EGO.

God is all-knowing - I am not

God is self-sufficient - I am not

God is all-powerful - I am not

God is infinite in wisdom - I am not

God is infinite in holiness and love - I am not

God is omnipresent - I am not

God is in control of the universe - I am not

God is infinitely great and glorious - I am not

I trust and rely on God. He is all powerful. I am powerless and depend on Him.

There is a big difference between insults and mockery - and satire

Satire is:

A form of literature
An art form
A literature form and style, used by the Bible and the reformation
Used by a valid, historical Christian group - the Holy Fools tradition

I don’t mind someone here, taking a certain position:

No free will
Creationism (as a science) is true
The “two-wine” theory
The garden of Eden had smoking herbs
The OT Nephilim were space aliens
The devil really caused the flood
Trump is the anti-Christ
The non-Christian bad folks, temporary become zombies - during the tribulation
Etc.

However, I ask myself these questions:

Is this a position normally taken by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches?
Do historical and contemporary theologians, philosophers and scientists - who are Christian - embrace this position?

So if we can’t answer the above questions in the affirmative - guess what? It’s a good position for satire.

Now suppose someone says we have no free will. And God controls the strings - like a puppet master. Then I could present an equally absurd theory. That we have the end times unfold, like that in the Left Behind series. But God turns the bad and non-Christian folks into P-Zombies - during the tribulation. Then later redeems them all, just like in both theories.

Or the Devil is a powerful entity, causing the flood of Noah and all natural disasters. Then I might propose a couple of ways, to defeat the devil.

A fiddle contest, with the right fiddle player
Singing the best song in the world

And fundamentalists like to quote passages out of context - like what sometimes happens here. And it’s a proper question, to ask what the passage is saying, within the context of that particular Bible chapter.

And folks might think satire mocks and insults them. That’s their “personal subjective opinion”. Imagine someone says:

This work by Shakespeare insults us
This Bible chapter insults us Jews, etc.
Etc.

Let me share a quote from Satire: humorous criticism or insulting attacks?:

Let me dawn my statistical hat here. The only way to determine, if something is insulting or mockery - is this. You create a proper survey questionnaire. Then you take an appropriate statistical sample, to address the questions. And this sample, must be representative, of a valid, statistical population. So I might say something like this - as a conclusion.

80% of the people surveyed, found this particular passage from Gulliver’s Travels by Johnathon Swift, to be both insulting and a mockery, to the historical population of England. And one can argue, that is a “group opinion”.

And let’s end, with an historical Rotor Rooter commercial - that uses satire :exclamation:

Michael,

Where does the bible command we drive cars? Simply because something isn’t commanded doesn’t mean it is prohibited, especially when we find the behaviour in question exampled by Christ and the apostles (who we are called to emulate).

Or, to try a different tack, where in the bible is mockery forbidden?

We might have to agree to disagree as to the force of your argument here. As of now I lean tentatively towards mockery and insult being legitimate under certain circumstances.

Proverbs 17:5 ~~ Whoever mocks the poor insults his Maker; he who is glad at calamity will not go unpunished.

Isaiah 28:22 ~~ Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

Jude 1:18 ~~ How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Matthew 27:29;31 ~~ And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!..And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

1 Peter 3:15 ~~ But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~~ Micah 6:8

ad hom·i·nem (hŏm′ə-nĕm′, -nəm) adj. fallacy

  1. Attacking a person’s character or motivations rather than a position or argument:

Thanks Michael, it’s good to have the key texts provided. I’m not sure our discussion is likely to head in a constructive direction beyond this, so I’ll note a couple more points and see if anyone else wishes to join in:

At present I’m not convinced that the bible makes a clear prohibition against all forms mockery, strong language and insult. The verses noted so far in this thread do not, to me, seem to provide sufficient clarity to say, for example, that Paul was sinning in making some of his stronger comments in the epistles, or that the OT prophets sinned in their communications, or that the early church was guilty of ‘mockery’. Proverbs quotations in particular seem too weak in terms of their genre and context (general sayings; rude behaviour against the poor borne of arrogance and delight at calamity) to be applicable to, say, Christian ethical preaching denouncing an abhorrent practice (where I could see legitimate mockery being effective and loving).

It does seem clear, though, that in general terms Christians are called to gentle respect and careful choice of language, which makes perfect sense. I don’t see those positive commandments disallowing all possibility of mockery, however, since the example of Christ and God in the scriptures seems very clear. No argument has yet been provided for why that particular behaviour is acceptable for God, Jesus, prophets and apostles but not ordinary Christians.

Pog… to your question “Is mockery a legitimate tool?” I say, YES, it can be. All the texts Michael gives above are the excepted norm, and how we should in any normal given situation respond. There are however exceptions to the rule and you’ve asked about “mockery” in terms of a “tool” – a means to an end, so NOT just an unsullied end in or of itself… which is pretty much the essence of the texts given above.

Paul however in making a point against the devastating effect some of the Judaisers were having on some young congregations reaches into the area of mockery and put-down, and legitimately so, obviously in his opinion when he didn’t mince words saying…

I wish those people who are bothering you would add castration to their circumcision. :imp:

I don’t think mockery is generally a legitimate tool at all - there might be place in books (Erasmus for example) - but those are very talented people, with specific audiences in mind. In our day to day lives I believe we are called to be gentle and respectful. I cant believe mockery is consistent with Christianity and loving our neighbour as ourselves…its often just an excuse to be as base and unloving as our opponent. Not for me -

Blessings!

Thanks for the input zaidagal.

Can you present your reasons as to why you “cant believe mockery is consistent with Christianity and loving our neighbour as ourselves”?

It seems to me that it can. For example, if mockery of IS proves an effective tool in preventing young Islamic people from being radicalised then this appears perfectly consistent with loving our neighbours - it prevent much suffering and harm to others. Or, for example, mockery of a powerful authority figure might prevent political abuse or the such like. After all, didn’t Jesus and the apostles use insulting language?

If all mockery is illegitimate, doesn’t that mean pretty much all comedy is taboo for Christians?
And how could one read the bible without agreeing with God’s insults of others … Would the Christian be forced to censor the scriptures?

Indeed…