The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is everything fun a sin? 1 John 2:15-17

It depends on how you interpret “love the world”. I say I love God and like the world.

As a Holy Fool tradition adherent, I would try to draw inspiration - from Curly Howard, Harpo Marks and Stan Laurel.

And I watch non-redeeming shows, to relax from intense intellectual activity. Like I used to love the MacGyver TV show. Now they have a remake tonight on CBS - which is pretty good.

And afterwards, I watch 2 shows - on the SciFi channel. Z-Nation about Zombies (actually, it’s a Walking Dead ripoff). And then Van Helsin, about a female fighting vampires.

What about rock music? We can listen to it or use it as a forum - for Christian worship.

If you don’t like the world, you can always join a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Anglican monastery.

Or you can be like one of our thread initiaters here. When someone posted a Frank Zappa quote (not me, by the way), he responded this way:

If you spend several hours a day - reading the bible: I think it is overkill.

Yes, I like the world. I occasionally like a glass of wine, beer or whiskey. I like watching superhero movies. I like eating cuisines, from around the world. And listening to classical music. Etc.

But I love God, church, Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition, and Christ.

Randy said:

Though I have to say that I may believe the bible idea of ‘world’ may be different than most think it is, I appreciate Randy’s input and have to agree with him :exclamation: :exclamation:

Amen :smiley:

I too have had this issue in the past. So I don’t think your alone in bringing up these verses. Many well-meaning Christians call things “worldly”, when they really have no criteria to judge what is “worldly” and what “spiritual.” How do you define worldly? Is it secular music, piercings, dyed hair, TV shows, movies, sports, or theater productions? Is it worldly to drink and dance? At one point I’ve considered all of these as fleshly and wrong. But by what standard? Many times believers use an arbitrary set of rules to judge what they consider as wrong. You can call something “worldly” simply because you dislike it. It doesn’t feel or look Christian to you. But that doesn’t mean its wrong in God’s eyes. The phrase “lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” doesn’t help much either. Its too general. What’s not general, however, is how Scripture defines things. At the end of the day, all we should care about is what the Lord has spoken on a subject. And if He is silent on it, then it is a matter of Christian liberty.

Now I personally don’t think Christians should be watching movies that are filled with cursing, sexual promiscuity, among other things. Mainly because Christ warns us to keep our eyes from looking on what is evil. But that doesn’t mean a Christian can’t enjoy some wholesome entertainment, a movie that is encouraging and interesting, a TV show that is fun and enjoyable. “The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” have to do with sin. Sinful delights that draw the Christian away from loving God. Because if you say you can’t enjoy anything in the world, then you have to dislike hikes (because lakes, trees, and mountains are in the world), eating (because food comes from creatures and living things that inhabit this world), and working (since you must interact with things of the world to work).

God’s creation is good. He gave the festivals to the Israelites not only so they would remember and honor Him, but so that they might rejoice before Him and celebrate. When the prodigal son came home there was a celebration with music and dancing. Which means that God dances. Indeed, He is the originator of all that is good in this world. So I would say, that the world that John writes of is not the physical world, but the sinful ordered system of humanity. And this sinfulness is defined by Scripture. Not by people on YouTube with comments, with their own misguided notions of what is worldly and what is holy. Should we be careful in what we allow into our eyes and ears? Yes. But that is a far cry from saying that entertainment and fun is off limits. I think obssession with entertainment can be a sin, but so can anything we make an idol of. Just be sure you are making good use of the time you have, and honor God by obeying His Word. And where His Word is silent, you are free to act.

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.” Ph 4.8

As long as fun doesn’t keep us from that good advice above, let there be fun!

awakeningaletheia Said:

ABSOLUTLY! and much of Christendom want to stifle that fact. :open_mouth:

DaveB said

:smiley: :smiley:

Does that rule out reading horror novels or the OT?

I hope not. Or hard SF either. :smiley:

This raises a big question for me. It says you can know a person, by the company they keep. Is it a sin to hang around holy fools, zombies, p-zombies, nerds and geeks, rather then the bulk of humanity? :confused:


YEP! :wink:

1 Corinthians 10:31
31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Romans 8:5-6
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

christianforums.com/threads … 218/page-4

Geoffrey, I take it your familiar with John Granger. I read most of his books, and a few other Christian Commentaries on Harry Potter including Catholic author Luke Bell and Anglican Danielle Tuminio. I also recall a series of Harry Potter lectures from an orthodox teacher on Youtube by the name of Ted Sherman. I have found that there are some orthodox who are not fans of Harry Potter, but I guess every Christian denomination has its fundamentalists.

EDITED: Sorry, I just noticed what you wrote about John Granger.

Just a footnote here. Geoffrey was an Eastern Orthodox member…who believed in “Ultra-Universalism”. He is no longer here. I’m replacing him…as a current Eastern Orthodox prospect and RCIA attender. But I promise to replace his “Ultra-Universalism”…with the more rational position, of the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Let me share a couple of interesting articles…from today’s Patheos Evangelical newsletter:

On regards to Wordliness, I find this is rooted in a Gnostic heresy where the material world was seen as made by an evil god. Plus, most of the time when the word worldliness is flung around, it is just a code word to hate anything of modern culture or anything outside their church. I would definitely be careful with someone like Steve Anderson, as he is quite pharisaical, and advocates for execution of Homosexuals. Now I best understand worldliness as giving absolute importance to matters of the world with no interest in God. Richard Rohr has a good understanding of the false and true self. The False self is the self independent of God, while the true self is in union with God. In using Fr. Rohr’s methodology, the world is the creation independent of God(I dont mean in a theocratic sense). Much Worldliness I would wager is a perversion and absence of a good. The best characteristics I can gather of worldly thinking are A) Either/or thinking, B) reductionism, and C) trust in brute might. IN fact, most of the churches that speak against worldly thinking just have an alternative worldliness of political incorrectness, separatism and self righteousness. In a non-worldly way, one could embrace the paradox of God being both absolutely soft and absolutely hard. In Peter Kreeft’s book on the Philosophy of Jesus, he stated that Jesus is softer than any liberal and harder than any conservative. The best example I can think of comes from the movie “The Prince of Egypt” when Moses comes across the Burning Bush. I think that this is one of the best representations of the otherworldliness of God that is haunting and firm, but not terroristic and bullying.

Now on having Fun, there is absolutely no sin in enjoying life. In fact, God made material blessings to be enjoyed. This is best contrasted with Sexuality. It would be just as worldly to treat sexuality as a necessary evil all for pro-creation not to be enjoyed as it would be to treat sexuality as a toy solely for personal gratification. This is also contrasted with the Liturgical Churches that have times of Fasting(Advent and Lent) with times of Feasting(Christmas and Easter). Either way, both the renunciation and indulgence are balanced out without resorting to any worldly extremes.

Is everything fun a sin?

Just to answer the OP question directly:

No. Not everything fun is sin—only that which harms other people or yourself.

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But Don at what point are what you/we/anyone saying constitutes what harms others or youself?

Or more broadly speaking… the OC world, of which of course the law was central.

At the point at which you or others are harmed. I don’t know how to say it any more plainly. All I can do is give examples.

  1. Getting drunk every day for a long period of time is sin. It is harmful to your health. Getting drunk at all could result in harm to one or more other persons.

  2. Smoking at almost any level is harmful to the health. Therefore it is sinful to smoke.

  3. Jealousy of one’s spouse is almost universal. Therefore it is sinful to copulate with another person’s spouse, thereby harming the mental well-being of that person.

  4. Withholding help for a needy person when you are aware of that need, and have the means to relieve that person, may result in harm or even starvation for that person. Therefore it is probably sinful to withhold the help that you are able to provide (though it may result in greater enjoyment or fun for you).

We’ll use this as an example, so in the fifties, when smoking was both VERY prevalent (and accepted) and not much data was known about the effect of smoking on ones health, was it a sin then?

I’ll leave you two to it, but just for anyone else who is interested - here’s a few things from a reliable source that do harm, and are sinfuil:

sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,d drunkenness, orgies, and things like these