Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

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Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Every couple of years I find myself having a rather large setback of irrational fear (scrupulosity). There is no real rhyme or reason for it and this 'scrupulosity' seems to morph on fears. For example: I still have certain thoughts that I struggle with, truly struggle with and want to be free from sin. This much is sure. But somehow this fear of falling back into old patterns of life that I gave up 4 years ago grips a hold of me. Then, without warning, it took a seriously nosedive a month later. I suddenly no longer trusted that Christ will would perfect me, or more to the point, that I might not be serious enough in my walk, despite my obsession. That then morphed back into not being 'saved' as I read verses of being disqualified and standing 'condemned' before God. Finally, the fear morph further back into God being a monster, requiring perfect sinless perfection before he would find us acceptable to him (love worthy, rather). So I sat paralyzed with fear of failure and it caused me to absolutely do nothing. I was living like the parable of the talents. I was sitting on my talent for fear I would lose it. I was scared to pursue God, because I thought "What is the point?" I am a failure. Then my attention turns towards my children and loves ones thinking how unjust God is for likely not saving my family (just statistically speaking) how the horror of me making it and not my son or daughter, parents, mother etc... I can honestly say that the feeling of "impending doom" was overwhelming.

What I find interesting is that this seems to happen every so often. Usually I can go a few years in 'peace' and I am generally a better person for it. But when I fall back into this fear, I am worthless as a father, a husband, etc... I am paralyzed with hopeless condemnation. Yet, two years ago I was absolutely certain of God's love, no doubt about it. I believed Jesus was the messiah and even if I don't make the cut in this life, I will be judged and learning righteousness in the next.

What I find interesting is that even though I acknowledge that many are called and few are chosen, I see visibly with my eyes that if God requires perfect conduct before I die (in both action and heart) then we are all doomed, save for the few of us that make the cut. That doesn't make me any happier, however, it just scares the crap out me that most of humanity will stand condemned before the Lord.

That said, I am working my way out of this whole again by relearning scriptures the build up, rather than destroy. But, by golly, falling back into the idea that God is a monster and believing it in your emotions (with dread, impending doom, etc...) is honestly the worst feeling in the world. Here I was wanting to be pure for purity sake just a month before I regressed into be scared into a more primitive relationship with God. MacDonald says "God must be far from those who fear him most" and wow... That is an indictment against me, isn't it?

I must admit, however, I had been becoming a very strong doubter of God. So maybe this was his punishment... Maybe some of my ideas about God not caring, maybe not even existing outside of being a creator have themselves judged me foolish. I have no problem running a race for God, but the expectation that I am perfect before him leaves no room for faith. I an reminded "Who then can be saved?" "Humanly speaking, no one" and yet I know we have responsibility in this life. It appears to be that we can fall back into previous patterns, if not patterns of sin itself, patterns of doubting the goodness of God. Still, the idea of being condemned before God scares the hell out of me. The idea that my children may be condemned before him scares the hell out of me. My wife, parents, etc...

That said George MacDonald and L Ray Smith has been giving me hope again... Hope in a good God. Hope that this suffering will be a thing of the past. I always get past it, but not before it destroys me into for months making me unfruitful. [url]Prayers would be coveted, as well as advice.[/url] I have to believe that God has a purpose in this, however cruel it appears to me now.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Paidion » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:45 pm

I am glad you are getting hope again. God is truly good!—totally GOOD! Complete love casts out fear. God doesn't require immediate sinlessness in order to have a relationship with Him. Salvation from sin is a life-long process, a process that will some day be complete. Just be willing, and God will do His part in the process.

The apostle Paul wrote:I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby JamesAH81072 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:06 pm

From someone that suffers from scrupulosity myself I sometimes get these attacks that God is going to torture me big time when I die. It's a fear that comes and goes but it can be a frightening thing to think about and go through especially when I'm prone to having anxiety and panic attacks.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby davo » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:54 pm

Gabe Grinstead wrote:For example: I still have certain thoughts that I struggle with, truly struggle with and want to be free from sin.

Gabe, what do you mean by… “free from sin” i.e., what would/does that look like for you?

Gabe Grinstead wrote:But somehow this fear of falling back into old patterns of life that I gave up 4 years ago grips a hold of me. Then, without warning, it took a seriously nosedive a month later. I suddenly no longer trusted that Christ will would perfect me, or more to the point, that I might not be serious enough in my walk, despite my obsession.

Could you possibly be being afflicted by occasional bouts of mild depression… these things can come and go being somewhat cyclical. If so, speaking with a GP/psychologist might be an option worth considering.

Gabe Grinstead wrote:MacDonald says "God must be far from those who fear him most" and wow... That is an indictment against me, isn't it?

Well ONLY IF what he says is correct… is it :?: :?: :?:

I’ll say this… *scrupulosity* isn’t all so negative, in fact, the definition is: Conscientious and exact; painstaking. Having scruples; principled; the state or quality of having scruples. :)
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:44 am

Well, Gabe. We are conditioned since birth, to hear that there is a hell. And ECT is the fate of the un-redeemed. We need to accept Christ and that's all there is.

"You know you are getting old when it takes too much effort to procrastinate."-- Author Unknown

“One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight, for a very long time, of the shore.” -André Gide (French author, Nobel laureate in literature)


Well, sure this might come back to haunt us. I find new messages these days. Like:

    Watching Joel Osteen. And that health, healing and prosperity - are available int the here and now

And I have made friends with:

    Native American medicine men and women. And have participated with them - in their ceremonies
    And those considered to be - saints from the East
    And healers of various traditions
    And Buddhists - with their different methods of meditation

And many act more Christian - then some Christians i know. But they are slated for hell, if we have a narrow view of Christianity.

Perhaps because I practice disciplines like Insight Meditation. That's described in the article at How to Practice Vipassana Insight Meditation. Or type "insight meditation" into Google. Or I slow down my mind - in Native American ceremonies. I can be more relaxed.

Or my view of health expanded. When - in addition to viewing what traditional medicine, had to say...I also looked at what homeopathy, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda and spiritual healing - had to offer.

And some friends are dual spiritual citizens. They are Roman Catholic, but also

    Practice Native American spirituality or

But when old messages creep up. Hang out with those, getting the new messages.

Like read the works of Arthur Schopenhauer in philosophy and John Calvin in theology. :lol:

And while you are reading, these 2 great scholars...listen to some Celtic, Christian worship music - to lighten the load. ;)


And here are some theologians, talking about 20 minutes on YouTube - Celtic Christianity


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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby qaz » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:32 pm

Gabe, though I still experience my share of mental anguish, I no longer have fear of ET, which is great. Life is a lot easier when I don't have that looming over my head. My recommendation is to saturate yourself in UR literature, which is what I did after joining this site. I highly recommend you read the book, "God's Final Victory". It doesn't try to explain all the verses that could be construed as teaching ET, but rather builds a philosophical argument against ET based on principles of the faith.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Origen; » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:15 pm

God gives human beings some interesting experiences:

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." (Job 1:8)

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Corinthians 11:7-10)

33"Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws. (Dan.4:33)
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Origen; » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:38 am

I think i may have experienced some similar things.

Though I prefer to turn to the shrink in the sky. He charges less.


31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”j

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

------------------------------------


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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:56 am

Thanks for the input and encouragement. At this point I am relatively at peace, but I still struggle with something like Matthew 7:22. That verse always strikes a nerve and it bothers me that so many nominal Christians think "That won't be me" and yet it was literally addressed to Christians or people who think they are... Like a non-Christian wouldn't say Jesus, remember me? only a Christian would say that. So I am curious if Jesus knew that would strike fear into the hearts of many... the problem from what I have observed about Bible warnings is that it appears to me that those who pay attention to them most are NOT likely to be the ones in danger of that happening. Which makes me wonder...
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:09 am

davo wrote:
Gabe Grinstead wrote:For example: I still have certain thoughts that I struggle with, truly struggle with and want to be free from sin.

Gabe, what do you mean by… “free from sin” i.e., what would/does that look like for you?

Gabe Grinstead wrote:But somehow this fear of falling back into old patterns of life that I gave up 4 years ago grips a hold of me. Then, without warning, it took a seriously nosedive a month later. I suddenly no longer trusted that Christ will would perfect me, or more to the point, that I might not be serious enough in my walk, despite my obsession.

Could you possibly be being afflicted by occasional bouts of mild depression… these things can come and go being somewhat cyclical. If so, speaking with a GP/psychologist might be an option worth considering.

Gabe Grinstead wrote:MacDonald says "God must be far from those who fear him most" and wow... That is an indictment against me, isn't it?

Well ONLY IF what he says is correct… is it :?: :?: :?:

I’ll say this… *scrupulosity* isn’t all so negative, in fact, the definition is: Conscientious and exact; painstaking. Having scruples; principled; the state or quality of having scruples. :)


Free from sin to me would, to me, be free from the inclination to sin. I know that is wishful thinking, but I can't imagine that God feels pulled to do evil in the same way that I do. The reason I say this is because we can be worn out and tired due to our human frailty and succumb in a moment of weakness. Jesus said "Pray that you may not enter into temptation"... I think temptations served a purpose, to make us stronger, but I believe our human wills are limited. Put another temptation and stress on a human being and it is belief they will eventually sin. While God may not view this as sin due the circumstances (coercion) I have no idea.

As for depression, without offending anyone here I need to be careful with what I say. I am not convinced pharmaceuticals is the solution to depression. I am not condemning it, but I don't want to trade one substance for another. Like, a heroin addict now can decide to use methadone, but he still remains an addict. Nothing has changed except now the addict doesn't even feel good. Withdraw from methadone is even worse than heroin. I don't want to correct brain imbalance with synthesized drugs. That is a personal decision by me and I realize I am the one who has to suffer or recover based on that choice.

As for scrupulosity, it is debilitating because one loses perspective. A lack of perfection on my bad doesn't make me a bad father, or husband. While true, being perfect in my conduct would make me a better husband and father it isn't necessarily true that the progression to such perfection, if it could be accomplished, would be worth it due to the time lost pursuing such things. In other words, sometimes perfect is the enemy of the good. know Christian's famously quote that "Good is the enemy of the best (perfect)" but I almost believe this is the other way around, at least in dealing with humans. I think perfection is the enemy of Good. Excellence is something to strive for, but perfection is paralyses, in my opinion. Still that doesn't mean this habit/throught process is easy to break,
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby steve7150 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:18 pm

I don't want to correct brain imbalance with synthesized drugs. That is a personal decision by me and I realize I am the one who has to suffer or recover based on that choice.









I respect your stance but i want to mention that pharmaceuticals rarely are a cure for depression or other emotional/mental conditions but often they can help one manage the symptoms.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby qaz » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:56 pm

steve7150 wrote: I don't want to correct brain imbalance with synthesized drugs. That is a personal decision by me and I realize I am the one who has to suffer or recover based on that choice.









I respect your stance but i want to mention that pharmaceuticals rarely are a cure for depression or other emotional/mental conditions but often they can help one manage the symptoms.


Yes Steve. I have OCD. The two meds I'm on haven't cured me, but they do help keep the thoughts from dominating my life.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby davo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:46 pm

Gabe Grinstead wrote:Free from sin to me would, to me, be free from the inclination to sin,

Sin in one sense is basically the selfishness of self-gratification when it comes at the expense of another. Self-gratification is not always necessarily a bad thing. Learning to put others’ needs before our own can help curtail certain inner drives that can lead to behaviours to be regretted.

Gabe Grinstead wrote:While true, being perfect in my conduct would make me a better husband and father it isn't necessarily true that the progression to such perfection, if it could be accomplished, would be worth it due to the time lost pursuing such things.

In regards to sin or perfection and how God sees you accordingly it might be a help to get over that and start seeing your so-called sin or perfection with regards to how your family sees you. I’m sure they are far more accommodating of your human foibles than your brain tells you God is. Once you start to conclude and realise the breadth of your family’s grace towards you, you may just start to realise where they get that grace from — God. Fact… God looks at you with MORE favour and grace than they.

What am I saying? Accept your foibles… work on those as you can and leave the rest to Him, BUT DON’T let the attaining of such consume you. He has grace for your life so stop trying to outperform yourself lest in endless self-perusal and ultimately frustration you wear yourself naught and your family loses the real dad/husband they cherish. Long story short — do yourself a favour and leave yourself alone.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby qaz » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:37 am

@davo as someone who doesn't believe in postmortem punishment, can you share your interpretation of Matthew 7:22?
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Gabe Grinstead » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:20 am

qaz wrote:@davo as someone who doesn't believe in postmortem punishment, can you share your interpretation of Matthew 7:22?


Seconded... I'd love to have an answer this as that verse scares the hell out of me. Well, it does again. It had not for the last 3+ years, but now it does. It appears to be only directed to Christian's only, however.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby davo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:18 pm

From my perspective, as I understand it… the KoH/KoG (they are one and the same Mt 19:23-24) was a then present and burgeoning reality being made manifest in Christ, so this is not necessarily a postmortem scenario per sé pushed out into the never-never. The fullness of the kingdom awaited in the parousia which didn’t require *death* for the reception of ‘rewards’ Mt 16:27-28 (what THAT actually looked like we’re not told, although Revelation seems to indicate some sense of spiritual fulfilment[??] i.e., “to him who over comes will I grant…” etc).

I think Jesus was giving a stern lesson on ‘heart attitudes’ and the importance of this being reflected in one’s service to God, i.e., not being reliant upon certain *outward show of works* for kudos, such as “the first will be last” etc, and probably having certain Pharisaic practices in mind Mt 6:5, and so 7:23 seems to reflect following through with genuine actions what one has heard in words, IOW it’s not all just for show. You have to appreciate that IF “God is the Saviour of all men…” then THAT has to count for something.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:48 pm

From my stand point, though it does not really contradict davo, is that God did all he needed to do to humanity at the cross. Whatever was separating us from him (God) was totally taken care of at the cross. God loved us so much that Christ became our sin. All the anger that was portrayed in the OT was satisfied.

Now we have to ask 'what will happen to the blatant sinners and scoundrels who seem to defy God and live relatively ordinary lives' :o

The idea of post mortem correction or punishment is intriguing, but does not fit the MO of a Loving Merciful God. :shock:

I tend to believe the idea in the likes of Elizabeth K Ross, who says when we move from this life to the next, that we are moving from a cocoon to a freedom, you could say like a caterpillar to a butterfly, we will know all God has ever wanted, all god has ever expected, and how much God loves us. :D
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby davo » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:36 pm

maintenanceman wrote:From my stand point, though it does not really contradict davo, is that God did all he needed to do to humanity at the cross. Whatever was separating us from him (God) was totally taken care of at the cross. God loved us so much that Christ became our sin. All the anger that was portrayed in the OT was satisfied.

I’m inclined to agree, especially with this… “All the anger that was portrayed in the OT was satisfied.” Unlike universalism per sé I understand the likes of Jn 12:32I will draw all peoples to Myself” to indicate Jesus drawing upon himself *ALL the divine judgement* that stood over and against humanity… the word peoples ISN’T actually in the Greek text. It is the prior verse that sets this context of “judgement”. The reason “people” or “men” is inserted into the text is because the word “all” <πάντας> pantas is in the masculine, which can indicate ‘men’ but in the NT the masculine is used often enough to refer to something other than specifically “men” — examples:
Jude 1:25 …to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Tit 3:2 …to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

Titus here above adds the specific “men” <ἀνθρώπους> anthrōpous after “all” <πάντας> pantas.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby qaz » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:52 am

But davo, as a preterist surely you see Rome conquering Jerusalem as judgment.
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Re: Has anyone here fallen back into old thinking patterns?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:00 am

There is one way, to break out of old thinking patterns. And that's to do something, that forces you to think differently.

"Don't let people pull you into their storm. Pull them into your peace."-- Kimberly Jones

I suggest folks adapt, one of my good habits. Go see a good NERD movie. Or watch a good, NERD TV show. Like some of the AMC Zombie TV shows - the Walking Dead or Fear the Walking Dead. Or even Preacher.

Or see a superhero movies, a movie about robots or computers, a horror movie or a monster movie. Today I'm off to see Planet of the Apes 2017. Which got good user ratings, on IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes.

Go see a NERD movie or TV show today. ;)

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In the meantime, here's something Roman Catholic priest Richard Rohr - shared today at https://cac.org/ newsletter:

Such an opening or re-opening is necessary to help you make fresh starts or break through to new levels. You normally have to let go of the old and go through a stage of unknowing or confusion before you can move to another level of awareness or new capacity. This opening up and letting go is largely what we mean by faith, and it explains why doubt and faith are correlative terms. People of great faith often suffer bouts of great doubt because they continue to grow. Mother Teresa experienced decades of doubt, as was widely reported after her death. The very fact that the media and people in general were surprised by her experience demonstrates our very limited understanding of faith.
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